Getting business ?...

[flyboy]

I know everybody has either been in my starting out situation or is now starting out so what are some ways to go out and get work? Anybody have some good sugestions? I've heard that the rotary clubs are good. Anybody have some suggestions as well on how to price jobs..... I recently took a vacuum form mold job but there was someone inbetween myself and the customer - hence I recieve $300 on a $800 job. That's my fault, I took it because I have nothing else going. But I need to go out and get my own work. I just need some ideas of where to get started. Signs, molds, whatever.... Thanks in advance.

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Tom,

I'm not a Bothead yet, but your delima is similar to what I will be facing.

Having worked in the sign business for years, I know there is a market there to service smaller sign shops that do not have thier own CNC. Channel letters come to mind right away. Do you know what I'm talking about? A channel letter is is a metal encased neon lit letter. You see them all the time. Just go out tonight and gander at your local strip mall. They are everywhere.

Your market is to cut the "backs" of the letters, usually out of .063 aluminum, and also cut the plastic faces of the letters. Forget the sides.(Refered to in the industry as "returns") That's strictly "in-house" work. Usually the plastic faces are cut slightly larger than the aluminum backs, for fitting reasons you need not be concerned with, other than to get it right.

There are many applications in the sign business that a ShopBot can make you money with. The right software is important, but design skills are not. You will be working with thier designs. All you have to do is cut it. But if you have a flare for good design, it could lead to your own sign company in time. Who knows?

Smaller cabinet shops would also be a good source of business. I plan to pursue this as well, though I know more about signs than I do cabinets and furniture. I imagine that once you get comfortable and familiar with your machine, it won't make much difference.

As for pricing, the going rate around here is $50.00 to $75.00 per hr., depending on what you're cutting. You can make yourself more attractive to your customers by offering free pick up and delivery if that is plausible.(You pick up thier materials, take it to your shop, cut it, and deliver it.) Obviously, if they are 50 miles away from your shop, this is not a good idea.

Times are tough but they WILL get better. There is still business out there. We just gotta go get it. Hope this is of some help to you.

Mark

[bruce_clark]

Mark,

Spoken like a person who does not own a machine! Especially, the "...software is important, but design skills are not."

If you find a shop that gives you ready to machine designs, it will be a first. Any shop that does give you READY TO MACHINE files is on the verge of buying their own router.

A lot of people put too much faith in software. You still need to know how to use it to its fullest potential. The Shopbot and software are only tools. They do not know how to make signs, furnature or build houses. That is where YOU come in. Otherwise, it will just sit in your shop being under used.

Second, with the low entry cost of CNC routers (getting lower every day) this area of business will be a "short" lived one for most folks. Once a sign shop sees that they are sending out >$1000 a month for CNC router work would be foolish NOT to look into buying a router and keeping those jobs (and money) in house.

Just my two bits...

Bruce Clark

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Bruce,

Spoken like a pro! However, I beg to differ. My last employer is "typical" for a small sign shop owner. Busy as heck in a small shop with no room to install a CNC. Takes up a lot of floor space, plus you have to hire someone competent to run it.He subs it all out and still makes money. There are many out there just like him, be it good business or not.

Now, what I meant by "software is important but design skills are not" means exactly that. Sign design, I mean GOOD sign design, is done by an experienced designer who is in direct contact with the customer. You may be a master of CNC, but have a poor sense of design. Dosen't matter. Your job is to cut the material, via a file given to you by the sign shop you are subbing for. Software is important only because you need to be comfortable with it, be it Corel, TurboCad, Rhino, or whatever. Right?

Beleive me, Bruce, I am much more confused than I am knowledgeable. I have much to learn and I look forward to it. I can only speak from my own experiences in the working world and what I've been through, which leaves a lot to be desired considering what I'm fixin' to jump into. If there's no challenge, then what's the fun? If there's no profit, well....that's another post!

Mark

[rgengrave@aol.com]

If you plan on using a cnc machine to make you a good living? You better know what it can and cannot do first.

If you plan on just doing signs and small jobs that is fine but you can make more income if you know how to draw.

I had a shopbot for about 5 years and there is nothing I can’t draw and cut.

It is not fair to say what program to use because I have not tried a few out there that others are using, but in over 5 years I learned to master different programs, I am now able to make anything a customer might want or need.

I stay away from 3D items because of the time it take to cut and see no money in it as a long term job, I just do the things my machine can handle.

I use Turbocad for everything but Text, I use Coreldraw to do that.

Like Bruce said learn how to get the most out of the software you have then you will know what it can and can not do.

Me I know how something works in 1 program and how to do something in another and something in another, I just use all 3 to make my files, then when I have some free time I go and play with the software and see I can cut it down to 2 programs.

I do SIGNS-FURNITURE-ARTS & CRAFT-CABINETS and about 30 other things, I hit every Flea Market, Cabinet Shop, Furniture Company, and a whole mess of other small business, I just let them know I might be able to do the work for them at half the cost they do it for or buy if for.

Now lets say you hit 300 places? And every one of them called you 1 time a month to do some work, lets say it was only a $10.00 job, what is $10.00 x 300? Get the point.

Just my 2cents worth.

Ron V

[flyboy]

Good input. Thanks. I also just got ripped on my first job..... He verbally made a bunch of changes and then when he saw them done said that wasn't what he wanted. So I filled up my shop with dust for nothing. This guy was a Quasi-used to be friend turned jerk, obviously, so I didn't worry about formal arrangements except for %50 up front. Does everybody else use contracts? I used to own a storefront franchise and when I bought the sign the deal was in writing and everything had to be signed off a couple times. What should I put in a work order contract? Obviously I'm going to need one.

[gerald_d]

Tom, I wouldn't bother with a "work order contract" unless you have plenty of money to hire a lawyer to enforce the contract.

Mostly we work without any legal document. If the job is bigger and the client more "fidgety" we do a good CAD drawing first, or cut a scaled sample in cheaper wood and get approval on this first.

If the client is not happy with our result, he pays nothing and gets nothing. There is no half-way, or reduced price for a job that is not to his satisfaction. This stops the guys who want to nitpick to reduce the price. This is the beauty of not having a contract, you can also decide that you can walk away from a job/client.

The tricky ones are when the client has supplied the wood, then you can't withhold the job if he becomes difficult. Good drawings and samples are the way to go.

[rgengrave@aol.com]

Tom good rule of thumb is like Mayo said, me I do all the samples in foam and cost less to nothing.

When doing work for friends and relatives just remember the saying, when you loan money to them you might not get it back.

When I get an order I have the customer make me the plans, or I will draw then up and have him OK them, then cut a sample in wood or foam, I charge an up front fee of the cost of the material and no labor, this is something like a service charge.

Now after you cut the sample and the customer wants to make some changes you just make them on the drawing.

When you get the OK to do it you can ask for half up front and the rest when done, now if he refuses the order just say thank you and good bye, all you lost is you time

Now if it was a big order with many dozens I would ask for full payment up front before I started making them, the customer has seen the sample and gave the ok so if he truly wanted it he will pay for it up front.

Most of the time what happens is he wants you to do the work and then comes across someone that will do it cheaper.

Ron V

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Ron V.,

Now you've forced me to tell the truth. I made a good living for 12 years as a designer for a sign co., but I did it all the hard way....on a drafting table with a pencil and eraser. I never picked up CAD because they didn't have a computer and there was almost nothing I could not draw with a few simple tools at hand. I'm an artist by nature, but my CAD skills are nil. I have AutoCAD 2000 and a manual, but so far I've experienced nothing but frustration. Recently a friend gave me CorelDRAW 6 and "Dummies for 7", and there it sits, on my desk, glaring at me, daring me!

I guess the best thing I can do when I borrow the $$$ to set up this little enterprise, is to borrow enough to live and pay the bills for about 6 months to a year while I figure all this out and get things set.

Mark

[rgengrave@aol.com]

Mark in less then 8 hours I could have you master a shopbot with a $30.00 program, there will be nothing you can't do in 2D.

Everyone assumes you need the $$$ programs to make files, only thing I know of that will cost you $$$$ is doing 3D files, this will start out at $900.00 to $10,000.00 for the software + you will need to learn how to draw 3D if you plan on using other software.

In the last 2 months I had 5 shopbotter come to me for training and they now have no questions and can do anything in 2D with a $30.00 program.

There is nothing hard about making files so never think it will take you 6 months to learn, you should see what shopbotters send me to draw for them, it takes minutes and not hours like they said they spent trying to do it.

Ron V

[tucker-52@charter.net]

I'm sold!

[MikeWool@greekexpress.com]

I just popped in and am considering buying a machine. I like the ability to hire experts to do things when they are around. Is there anyone in or around Southern California that would like to start off doing some small jobs for my shop? It might work out as a win win for both of us.... If so, please contact Mike at Greek Express 714-828-8100

[gerald_d]

Mark, I was also a pencil & board guy up to the age of 40. Then I got involved with a foreign partner who worked on CAD and I was forced to go the CAD route.

Every package looked very intimidating - while the sales guys thought they were being impressive with the bells and whistles. The more they showed me, the less I wanted to switch to CAD. At that stage I thought that I was too old for this new technology.

Until an ex school friend of mine came around one Saturday afternoon and bought along a really simple little CAD program (the name is not important). He took one of my pencil drawings and showed me how to redo it with the CAD. He was very patient and let me do all the keyboard and mouse work.

The most important thing was to customise the CAD for my specific environment in the beginning. Got the "orthagonal" mode and "snap/attach" switched on as default (major revelation!). Got the printer working. Then drew (and printed) some simple squares and circles.

Sunday he came around again, and there some phone calls in the next week. Within a week, I realised that I am faster and more accurate on CAD than with pencil & paper, for drawing the shapes of parts. It took some months before I had drawings good enough to give to customers, because this needed fiddling with text sizes/styles, line thicknesses, colors etc. (not important for ShopBot)

I have said it many times on this forum before; the best CAD program for a beginner is the one that your friend or neighbour is willing to teach to you. You do need help in the beginning, and you need help "after hours" - that is why friends are better than going on a formal course.

PS Mark, when you load AutoCAd 2000, the orthagonal and snap are turned off. I would start out by getting these set up correctly.

[Wdyasq@yahoo.com]

Gee Gerald,

You just say these things cuz they're true.

The best program you can get is one that has the personal support Gerald mentioned. One thing you DON'T want to do is try more than one at a time. By the time you learn a CAD program and start learning a CAM program AND learn the commands of a ShopBot, you will have enough to keep you occupied. You won't need another learning curve thrown in just because.....

I highly recommend finding the nearest ShopBot owner who you can talk to about the little details you are ignorant of. You my even be able to pick up a little work if you are lucky.


Ron Brown - wdyasq@yahoo.com (mailto:wdyasq@yahoo.com)

If Stupidity got us into this mess,
then why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Thanks Gerald D. & Ron B. Solid advice and I appreciate it. I like the service Ron V. offers. For a moderate cost he can have me up and running in a day or two with 24-7 support. And yes, Ron B., it would serve me well to get with a ShopBot owner near me, so here goes:

I live in Gainesville, Ga., about 60 miles N. of Atlanta. Any ShopBot owners around who would be willing to show me a thing or two? I can drive to Atlanta if neccessary. Please e-mail at:
tucker-52@charter.net (mailto:tucker-52@charter.net) Appreciate it!

And by the way, Gerald, those photos of the Great Whites in False Bay were AWSOME!!! And you've actually gone swimming there? I'd rather take my chances free-hand cutting on a table saw!

Mark

[Wdyasq@yahoo.com]

I'll pass on swimming with the big-toothed fish.


Just about any tool in a woodworking shop has the ability to remove digit or larger pieces of human anatomy. And I have seen a tablesaw with the nickname "The Talli-wacker" due to an accident several years back.

If you hang around a boat or furniture shop for any time at all you will see folks 'freehand' on a table saw. I do it myself when necessary. Small contractor type table saws will bind up and try to kickback. My small table saw is a 5HP 3 Phase unit. The large one has some power.

Continual vigilance is needed in any dangerous environment, be it workshop, barroom or bedroom. Those walk away with the fewest scars are the winners.

Ron Brown - wdyasq@yahoo.com (mailto:wdyasq@yahoo.com)

If Stupidity got us into this mess,
then why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Ron B. I don't even want to work with a table saw with the nickname "Talli-wacker". I'd rather swim with sharks and take my chances!

Mark

[waynelocke]

If you hang around 10 fingered shops you will never see freehand cuts on a tablesaw. It is extremely dangerous and never necessary.

Digit counts in the morning. Digit counts in the evening. If they tally. it is a very good day indeed. The only true measure of a man.
Wayne

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Wayne,

I could not have said it better. If it's a thin rip (I use the rule 4" or less) and if I don't have a fence AND a push-stick, I ain't cutting it! Tablesaws are especially dangerous when you have multiple users on the saw. Who knows if the last guy set the blade to 2 degrees, left it there with the fence loose when he was done, and didn't tell anyone?
I've heard horror stories and I never want to be one of 'em. We've all heard of experienced guys
having bad accidents, for various reasons.

Check Twice, Cut Once!

Mark

[Mr. G]

Hi,
I just learned about these great machines.
What an opportunity!.
I am a Tool and Die Maker with 15 years in the industry. I have experience in two of the
major software packages in the Cad/Cam world, and I can't believe a machine like this is available for this prize. Cutting wood sounds great, and would consider owning one for business purposes.
Anyone in the Puyallup, Washington I can contact?


Thanks,

Mr. G.

[walt]

I live in Port Angeles and have had one of these amazing machines for about a year.

walt

wllampert@hotmail.com (mailto:wllampert@hotmail.com)

[woodputz@comcast.net]

I live in Albuquerque, N.M and am seriously considering buying a Shopbot. Is there anyone in the vicinity who has one and would they be willing to let me come by and see it in action. I have quite a bit of experience with cnc's but my design/software skills could stand to be honed a little.

LARRY

[staffordb001@hawaii.rr.com]

I live on Maui and am interested in owning a shopbot. I'm at step one learning to use a cad program. Is there any one on island with a shopbot and willing to let me see it in action.
Brad
staffordb001@hawaii.rr.com (mailto:staffordb001@hawaii.rr.com)
Aloha and Mahalo

[dowty]

I live in Mansfield, MA and am considering buying a PR96. Is there anyone in this area using one of these machines that would be willing to let me take a look at it in operation?

[stickman]

Contractor services:

Do any of you Botheads custom cut for building contractors and residential home builders?

[kerrazy]

Hey Jay,
I am currently making some corbels and additional trim pieces for an historic renovation here in Ottawa. How can I help?

[stickman]

Dale,

I was just wondering what kinds of products people are making for those trades. I'm looked to expose my business to the public here in about a month at the home show and I'm wanting to get part of the contractors in my area interested in what I can do for them, (ie: curved wall plates, concrete form helpers, even things like that your talking about.) Things that they might spend a couple hours on with a jig saw, something that might take me ten minutes.

[kerrazy]

I just approach folks on the job. It has paid off quite well for me. As an example, the fellow I am doing the Corbels for was working down the street on a very interesting home and I just stopped in and introduced myself and went back to the shop to get a couple of my best samples and that was it....Sold, I have helped on f jobs with him so far not big things but 300.00 to a thousand each time.

I do the same with sign shops as well.

Any further questions don't hesitate
Dale

[elcruisr]

We cut for a company that builds gazebos. Good contract doing his curved truss braces. We do alot of work for contractors that do any kind of curved or radius work in commercial or residential applications. Also have done apartment unit numbers. Also look for commercial installation companies. These have paid off well before for us. Commercial casework and high end contactors also will see uses for your services.

Eric