Desktop Deliciousness

[Brady Watson]

A few pics from today's testing session...Right off the machine.

-B

[denmanmarine]

wow, nice work

[myxpykalix]

Looks nice Brady. Is that machine #3 for you? When are you going to be getting a Handibot?:D

What size bit did you use? And what would that size project be used for, a light switch? nice:)

[scottp55]

Brady, NICE! Aspire or VCarved? One pass or 2? What bit,wood,stepover. Just went from 8% to 5% and what a difference- no sanding. Pick up a few of these- If you don't like them, I'll personally repay you, my word.http://www.carbideplus.com/Carbide_60_deg_3F_Countersink_p/333-001050.htm

[Brady Watson]

This is ShopBot #5...new ones anyway :cool:

I scanned this a few years back and just never got around to carving it. The original is around 3x2' - which takes a bit more thought to pull off than just super-gluing some tablesaw cut offs together like I did with this little one.

It took about 5hrs total. Carpet taped down - 1/16" end mill profile cut & scrap removed. 1/16" 3D roughing @ 2,1; 1/32" ball end mill semi-finishing pass @ 35% SO, 1,1; 1/64" ball end mill @ 10% SO, 0.7,0.7 IPS. When you get down to cat whisker sized bits, you have to take care to properly clear out. Just the 1/16" roughing would not be adequate for 1/64" finishing. All tools from Harvey.

This wasn't scaled down for any other reason than to gauge resolution on this machine. It is faster & crisper than a rack & pinion machine with a lot more forgiveness with VR settings - although I had to tweak those a little. When you get down to this level of detail, the wood grain starts to influence the cut because they are pretty big compared to the diameter of the finishing tool. There is detail on this piece around the same size as the wood strands. It's pretty interesting.

I've done micro-carving on my larger tools and it takes some effort and deliberate action to get good results when the bit is that small. You cannot even hear it cut - so you have to LOOK to see if the bit is still intact. I'm going to try some smaller bits on this tool as well maybe 1/2 this size, like .005" diameter ball and see how that works out. You still have to take care because they are so delicate - and expensive @ about $50 ea.

-B

PS - It was all done in Aspire

[scottp55]

"Exploring new worlds---Going where no man has gone before":)

[rb99]

Maybe your dentist has some bits he/she could give you?

[Joe Porter]

How do you Z-zero a bit that small? Can you do a regular C-2? ...joe

[Brady Watson]

Yep...already got it covered on the dental bits & even the 400,000 dental drill :eek: You can do some amazing things with that thing.

There is no problem with a regular old C2 with the Zzero plate. I don't slow down speeds or anything like that. Works fine. As long as your spindle/router is dead square to the table, there shouldn't be any side force & all pressure will be on the center of the bit. It's side loads from the router moving on an angle that snaps tiny bits.

-B

[Joe Porter]

That's something I really need to do, is go over my machine (BT 32) and check out all the dimensions for square, etc. I have had the machine for 5 yrs. and it has run well right out of the box. But, maybe I am just being complacent. Thanks for all your input in maintenance and maybe I should start putting it to use....joe

[garyr6]

I had no idea that you could cut that fine....I've got to get some small bits and give it a try. Love the desktop.

[Brady Watson]

Joe,
Put your focus in a few key areas: First, clean the tool like you are going to sell it. Blow out all the nooks & crannies and get it clean. Polish those rails smooth with a scotch pad, WD40 & a rag. Then, replace all the pinion gears with fresh ones. If it's been 5yrs, it's probably time. Lube the racks with real grease (SB should have given you a tube). Wipe them down over & over the next few days to minimize build up & spatter. Adjust those lower YZ v-rollers at the bottom of the beam, lower rail. Not too loose, not too tight. Adjust pinion to rack lash on all axes. Then you are ready to tweak software a little to smooth out the tool. Look @ my VR/Ramping write up in web column area on SB.com

-B

[Brady Watson]

I had no idea that you could cut that fine....I've got to get some small bits and give it a try. Love the desktop.

Gary,
It can cut even finer than that! Not sure how much finer, but I intend on finding out!

-B

[bleeth]

Hey Brady:
Time to start playing with some jewelers wax!

[scottp55]

Excellent Idea Dave for investment casting,I was looking at Brady's wonderful work and just thinking of trying cuttlefish bone for simple silver casting but Brady's almost at the limits of cuttlefish as it is.

[Brady Watson]

Hey Brady:
Time to start playing with some jewelers wax!

That's in the plans at some point...I may farm out some investment casting to one of my jewelry customers that I do scanning for. That's a whole different game in & of itself - and you can dump prenty of cash with even basic casting equipment - let alone the precious metal!

I've got some other interesting things before that though on the list. I've managed to steal a little R&D time today...waiting for the wife's mirror frame finish to dry before re-coating. It's only taken me 2 yrs to figure out what design to do...which is the whole problem. I've got so much beautiful artwork I've either scanned or made in software - the choices are overwhelming. So much so that I often get paralyzed by it.

Anyone else get stuck there - in the totality of possibility?

-B

[scottp55]

Wouldn't be making buttons and cribbage boards if I could come up with 26 perfect letter blocks for kids that were blind,deaf,autistic,learning impaired, and "Normal" that would be bought by sighted grandmoms surfing the web and not being able to "Feel" the difference. Not in same class as you, but "Heck Yeah!":eek:

[bleeth]

On a darned near daily basis. The other challenge is doing any R&D within the "spare" time from the day to day work load. I find myself just too beat from keeping the eggs in the air and constantly catching up on needed back burner projects that the stuff I want to do to expand my knowledge is near impossible to fit in. As an example, I upgraded to the latest and greatest AC Pro from a very old version recently, and haven't been able to get into it enough to even familiarize myself with the changed menu interface let alone all the improvements. I've had a fantastic belt buckle design I've wanted to cut in wax for ages to get cast in silver, and have been in the new shop for 6 months now and haven't made the sign yet. Kind of embarrassing really, but at least I got the Alpha upgrade done.

[Brady Watson]

I upgraded to the latest and greatest AC Pro from a very old version recently, and haven't been able to get into it enough to even familiarize myself with the changed menu interface let alone all the improvements.

I know...I feel like they threw their customers under the bus. I've been using it since 2002 - and the interface is completely foreign now...Like whiskey tango foxtrot? I refuse to upgrade. I've been using Aspire more & more these days; keeping ACP in my back pocket for special projects.

-B

[wespor]

This is truly magnificent work, I'm really glad people convinced me to get the Desktop over a Buddy, this kind of detail is exactly what I want.

Speaking of my Desktop, it should be here any minute now. :)

[scottp55]

Now that's a happy new year Weston.

[bleeth]

I went to the users group in NOLA and it was very good. As much as I like Brian and understand the special niche that Aspire fills there is no doubt that AC has made some quantum leaps in functionality lately. You may want to go to next year's. Since they hold upgrade pricing static for old version users and GB knows the thing inside out it could be a good hit for you in the long run. In the meantime, I like what I've been catching in scuttlebutt regarding the desktop and would really like to see some work pushing the limits of the equipment. Go for it!!

[Brady Watson]

This is truly magnificent work, I'm really glad people convinced me to get the Desktop over a Buddy, this kind of detail is exactly what I want.

Speaking of my Desktop, it should be here any minute now. :)

Weston, thanks & congratulations! It's a great way to start the new year! Do yourself a favor & get your table ready (36" square is a decent size) and have your dust collector ready as well. I made some mods to mine to accept a Rigid 2" hose. More on that later. Hopefully you have spent some time getting acquainted with VCarve Pro - as this will be where you will spend most of your time. If you have questions or need help - you know where to come.

Dave,
There are interesting things coming! Stay tuned!

-B

[WoodMarvels.com]

This is truly magnificent work, I'm really glad people convinced me to get the Desktop over a Buddy, this kind of detail is exactly what I want.

Speaking of my Desktop, it should be here any minute now. :)

You made a mistake... go with a full-sheet ShopBot! :-) The desktop is an awesome machine but after two years, I'm starting to feel the limits of the cutting area and tiling isn't as much fun anymore. When I do settle-down in one place and don't have to drag the desktop around, not quite sure what I'll do with it once I got a PRS.

You don't want to end-up like me making a project of this size on a little machine hahahaha

http://youtu.be/6GqDFWNhR2c

Jon

[wespor]

You made a mistake... go with a full-sheet ShopBot! :-) The desktop is an awesome machine but after two years, I'm starting to feel the limits of the cutting area and tiling isn't as much fun anymore.

Haha, I did consider the full size and I worked with one professionally for several years so I know they are amazing. One day perhaps but for now I needed incredible accuracy, the kind Brady just showed off. As I understand it from a month of research, only the Desktop with a spindle can get very fine detail.

[shilala]

That is incredible, Brady.
Got my head grinding, though. I was sort of thinking about diminishing returns.
The smallest I use are 1/16" tapered ballnoses. They clean out things like your frame really nicely. So much so that I can't imagine it getting better. At least not to my hog's eye. :)
My question is about definition, and how the desktop compares to other machines if you slow way down and use small bits?
From photography, they say our eyeball can't differentiate beyond 300 dpi.
Is there any way to figure out how much definition is enough when you're doing super dee duper tiny stuff?
I guess jewelry gets examined under a loop, so it's more important?
I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that, or if you see yourself using any kind of mathematic model to decide where "enough is enough" lies.
Or are you thinking just run her down to the smallest bits in the world and see what they'll do?
Please excuse all the questions, I'm just fascinated. :)

[Brady Watson]

Yes - there does come a point where the law of diminishing return comes into play. On a rack & pinion tool, that limit is pretty much a 1/64" ball. This is also with some well thought out toolpaths and tweaks to speeds & VR to keep from breaking the bit (you cannot hear it cut on a big tool over stepper resonance @ low speed) and to minimize the effects of backlash. For very high res reliefs, I have on occasion added some 'ambient'/flat relief to a model's perimeter in order to over shoot all detail to give the gantry enough X movement when it changes direction (from X+ to X-) to soak up any backlash. This made a big difference on the edge quality of reliefs.

The Desktop does not seem to have any backlash that I can detect or observe at this point. It is a very tight machine right out of the box. It can probably machine detailed parts like this about twice as fast as the R&P tool because there is a lot less mass to accel/decel & less slop in the mechanicals over a much smaller cutting area. Also, the leadscrews are WAY more precise than R&P, which can have as much as .005-.007 linear deviation when new. Possible - not necessarily probable.

At this point, I have not pushed the limits of what this machine can do. This was just a little warm-up for my own satisfaction comparing results I got on my R&P to what this tool can do. I will probably order up an .007 and .005" dia tool to see how they perform. @ 10% SO with .005" dia ball, that puts me at .0005" SO, which is 2X more than the tool's smallest possible move increment, 0.00025".

There are applications where tools smaller than 1/64" would make an absolute difference. Yes, many of those are jewelry related things, where very fine details make ALL the difference. Careful study of high end architectural millwork and Rococo style furnishings show precisely how simple lines, divots and background textures placed in strategic places are the 'background music' that makes the piece really 'pop'. There are fine textures and guilloche patterns that would also benefit from smaller tools & finer movement. I've done some of this (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41575&postcount=10) with the big tool, but the DT really opens up some new possibilities.

-B

[shilala]

Thanks for that, Brady. Good stuff as always!!! :)

[Billions]

Hey Brady, I'm considering getting a Desktop. I already own the Buddy 48 Alpha, but I want to own a second machine for use at home for smaller detailed projects.

My question is this: How high of material can the Desktop handle? The PDF spec sheet says the tool has a 4" Z range, with a 2" material capability after adding the 2" bit length.

...Yet the webpage devoted to the Desktop (http://www.shopbottools.com/mProducts/desktop.htm) says 5.5" range with 3.5" material capability.

Obviously, I'd prefer if I could hear from someone who owns one could tell me I could put 3.5" thick pieces of wood in the Desktop. I carve a lot of 3" material on my Buddy and I'd like to move some of those jobs to a smaller machine at home.

What's your assessment on the z range on the Desktop?

[Brady Watson]

...Yet the webpage devoted to the Desktop (http://www.shopbottools.com/mProducts/desktop.htm) says 5.5" range with 3.5" material capability.


I believe there has been a revision that increases travel on new machines, but contact SB to be sure that it is currently available.

-B

[Billions]

Thanks for the reply. Are you thinking yours might be before or after this revision? What's a rough estimate on the z range on your machine?

[scottp55]

Shopbot website now shows 5.5" Z travel under specs. TJ said they just started making them last week, but he was out of the loop and to contact Dianne at sales. I've got an e-mail into Dianne now about an upgrade package as far as availability and price. Dianne is nice, you'll like talking to her. Even 6 months after the sale we e-chat. BTW she has a Desktop:) If I didn't have a full spoilboard of stuff I have to tweak I'd go out and measure for you. Looks like you picked a good time to buy, most of us would love an extra inch and a half of Z.

[bob_dodd]

I'm picking my desktop up tomorrow morning , Once unpacked , I'll give a measure and post the results . Hope I didn't order it a week too soon

[Billions]

Dianne is nice, you'll like talking to her.

Yeah I dealt with her a few years ago when I bought my Buddy. Great folks down there at SB.

[Brady Watson]

Thanks for the reply. Are you thinking yours might be before or after this revision? What's a rough estimate on the z range on your machine?

My DT has 4.125" total travel. You can increase (more accurately, "offset") your working envelope by removing the AL table extrusions and replace them with thinner material. You'll still be limited to 4" or so of travel, which is adequate on that little machine. Since I have larger machines, I don't need the extra Z travel. YMMV

-B

[bob_dodd]

Picked up DT today , Software install went smooth , total travel on the Z is 5.5" , mounting spindle today hoping to get testing tomorrow

[scottp55]

Congratulations Bob, Glad to see you got one of the new ones! Have Fun!:)

[Billions]

EXCELLENT, Bob! Very cool. Thanks for reporting back.

[scottp55]

Bob, The more I look at the picture with those #'s the more jealous I become. Better double your security cams:)

[scottp55]

Bob, Would you mind taking some pics of the new Z set up so we Zchallenged people can see exactly what they did?

[Brady Watson]

The rail is longer and the drive nut is upside down. You need a different YZ plate as well. You'll have to remove your spindle/router, the old rail, bearings and YZ plate in order to install the new stuff. Not a big deal if you take your time.

I don't know how much the kit is yet.

-B

[scottp55]

Thanks Brady, Yeah, Dianne said it was in the pipeline, but no idea when or how much. I imagine a lot will depend on interest and demand. Still playing with your Desktop?:)

[wespor]

Ahh, this is depressing me. If I had know this was coming I would have held off buying a bot for 4 months. Limited z-axis was my biggest concern about the purchase.

[scottp55]

Don't feel like the lone ranger Weston, we just bought the second one in January:(

[wespor]

Well, I'll wait to hear how much the upgrade kit costs before getting too sour. I feel like we should get a discount or something. I specifically asked about z-axis upgrades before I purchased my DT. I definitely would have waited for this if anyone had mentioned it.

[bleeth]

Weston: When I bought my PRT I got the most they had to offer then in a 4 x 8. One month after I bought it (on payments) they brought out the first Alpha. I was really p----d off. Then they told me they would be glad to sell me an upgrade kit for a "discount" but I didn't have the bucks. Turned out to be a good thing as the first Alpha's were awful. 1:1 motors had tons of chatter when cutting parts and the gantry was too weak to really cut ply much faster than the PRT with good accuracy.
Bottom line is, SB rarely gives any advance notice of upgrades, but does on all new machines.

[scottp55]

Yeah Weston, The additional Z probably introduces .0001" flex which when run with a 22.5 degree v-bit at 13.5 K causes harmonic distortion(or is that sympathetic vibration? I disforget) that results in "Tacoma Bridge Syndrome"! Please don't take this seriously anybody, Desktop is my best invention since I came up with sliced bread:) If they had these specs last year would have saved me oodles of time deciding between machines. Personally glad that Shopbot continues to listen to people and improve their machines:)

[Brady Watson]

You have to keep in mind that there is always a lot more to these things than meets the eye...Documentation has to be done, instructions and procedures for field installation created - aside from the actual hard parts themselves. Not everyone has good mechanical skills & you have to consider how much time it would cost for tech support if there wasn't good documentation before they sent anything out the door. Hang tight - I am sure they will come up with the whole shebang soon.

Yes - still using my DT & loving it. I haven't been 'round these parts' much lately due to some family emergencies and things of that sort.

-B

[scottp55]

Hope everything's OK Brady. As us Newbies expect miracles from your Desktop so we can copy them!:)

[wespor]

Hang tight - I am sure they will come up with the whole shebang soon.

You are right, I just hope I don't screw up the installation.