Intarsia question.

[shilala]

I've modeled up my first Intarsia project in Aspire.
I'm going to cut the tiles with a 1/4" downcut. I wish I had something smaller, but I don't, and I'd break it anyways.

When I made the pieces, I left a bit of gappage between them all. I was trying to emulate a saw cut, because guys generally do this on a scroll saw.

My question is this...
Is it better to err on the tight side or loose side when you make the pieces?
Is the process forgiving, or does it require a pretty good amount of precision?

I can tighten it so the pieces fit together perfectly, if necessary.

[adrianm]

I'd go for tight. After all you can always sand a bit off but you can't add it.

I did one a few years ago and I set the vectors up for an exact fit and then did an inwards offset by 0.25mm for the cut vectors.

[scottp55]

Scott,ask the inlay guys?, Max G. does some beautiful stuff as well as other pool cue guys. I'll be interested,still newbie.I was way to tight on a cut yesterday.

[shilala]

I'm gonna make them as tight as reasonably possible, Scott.
If I can force myself to do all the necessary node editing, I might just make everything perfect.
I looked real close at the box the guy made who wrote the article. The fit is not at all perfect. Not even close.
If I could figure out how to do a "snap to vector" or something of that nature, it'd be much easier. The problem is that the resolution of my pattern is ****. It might pay to just take it to photoshop and make it over completely.
I brought the pattern into Aspire and traced the bitmap. That made a big mess.
I should start over and just draw vectors over the pattern lines.

I also need to watch some vids on sculpting. Then I can do all the shaping of pieces in Aspire. This is really a lot tougher than I thought. I hope some guys give me some pointers.

[scottp55]

Scott, Have you tried, importing bitmap and then tracing in a pleasing approximation? Without using the tracing bitmap? Just following the image with beziers(Pain but works). Having a lot of problems importing "pastels" myself.

[scottp55]

OFF TOPIC. Scott, when you did crib board inlay with sassafras did you use Paul Z's v-carve inlay technique? What flat depth-if so. Did you LIKE sassafras?

[Brady Watson]

Send me or post up your pattern.

-B

[scottp55]

Scott ,take him up on it quick! Well, maybe.

[genek]

I've modeled up my first Intarsia project in Aspire.
I'm going to cut the tiles with a 1/4" downcut. I wish I had something smaller, but I don't, and I'd break it anyways.

When I made the pieces, I left a bit of gappage between them all. I was trying to emulate a saw cut, because guys generally do this on a scroll saw.

My question is this...
Is it better to err on the tight side or loose side when you make the pieces?
Is the process forgiving, or does it require a pretty good amount of precision?

I can tighten it so the pieces fit together perfectly, if necessary.

leaving marks is useless and not needed if the parts are all cut on the outside of the line they will fit,

[shilala]

Scott, Have you tried, importing bitmap and then tracing in a pleasing approximation? Without using the tracing bitmap? Just following the image with beziers(Pain but works). Having a lot of problems importing "pastels" myself.
Last night I started tracing the whole thing with beziers. Heck is, in order to separate the pieces to cut them, I'll have to copy a lot of vectors and do lots of node editing.
I want to make the first layer first, then "fit curves to selected vectors" to clean up. Then I can start cutting and copying vectors.
Gah.


OFF TOPIC. Scott, when you did crib board inlay with sassafras did you use Paul Z's v-carve inlay technique? What flat depth-if so. Did you LIKE sassafras?
Yes, I used Paul Z's technique. I used the numbers he used, I think it was .3 and .2. What I found with those numbers is that there's a huge gap beneath the inlay and it caused me a lot of grief when I cut out the back of the cribbage board for storage. Plus, with all that inlay and a big gap beneath it, you can smash it real easy. Next time I'll use much closer tolerances and more glue.
I love sassafras, but it's very soft. It also has strange colors, and always a green cast. I've seen cabinets made of sassafras that were absolutely gorgeous, albeit very "different".


Send me or post up your pattern.

-B
Absolutely. :)

[scottp55]

Better you than me Scott, Played with it thinking loose gapped might make interesting puzzle for kids.Would hate to do it "perfect".

[shilala]

That looks sweet, Scott.
I finished up a set that should fit together perfectly. Only problem I see is that my tooling isn't going to get into inside corners and I'll have to do a little chisel or dremel work.
The whole thing is making my head hurt. Thank God it's almost done.

[scottp55]

Yeah, the leaves and a few others, going to print mine and try paper first. see how far of I was.

[genek]

Better you than me Scott, Played with it thinking loose gapped might make interesting puzzle for kids.Would hate to do it "perfect".
that has a million nodes send me the original. prefer the one where all parts touch.\

[Brady Watson]

that has a million nodes send me the original. prefer the one where all parts touch.\

Dude...seriously? :rolleyes:

DL the bitmap from Scott's post (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=157975&postcount=10) & wrap it - by hand - without using bitmap to vector tools.

-B

[genek]

Dude...seriously? :rolleyes:

DL the bitmap from Scott's post (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=157975&postcount=10) & wrap it - by hand - without using bitmap to vector tools.

-B
mr. watson the dxf that is posted is full of nodes. would slow the cutting down. and possible cause miss alignment. trying to get Mr. Shilala a good pattern that will nest correctly.

[genek]

INTARSIA needs to fit like a glove no gaps no miss alignment. cutting with a cnc needs to be right on no bumps that will cause gaping. nodes out of place will cause bumps to many nodes slows the cnc down on cut time. I do intarsia all the time. used to do it with a scroll saw.

[genek]

Here is a picture of one part of the intarsia the nodes are all the blue dots. Some parts have so many nodes it just looks like a solid blue line.

[Brady Watson]

Lookin' good Gene. Keep going. It is good practice with node editing. ;)

Everything has a price...wrapping vectors to a bitmap using an automatic trace tool will not yield high quality vectors with minimal nodes. The only way to get professional results is to wrap the vectors by hand using a polyline and node editing. Few do this because they get overwhelmed, don't have the attention span or are just plain lazy.

-B

[Brady Watson]

Attached :cool:

-B

[genek]

Lookin' good Gene. Keep going. It is good practice with node editing. ;)

Everything has a price...wrapping vectors to a bitmap will not yield high quality vectors with minimal nodes. The only way to get professional results is to wrap the vectors by hand using a polyline and node editing. Few do this because they get overwhelmed, don't have the attention span or are just plain lazy.

-B\


I did not do anything to that drawing other than to down load the dxf.. and it has so many nodes I personnel y would not use it. would love to have the original to work off of. I use the poly line (three point drawing tool) I never do auto trace, Most throws too many nodes into the drawing and distort the drawing..

[genek]

same part that showed all the nodes in blue. The one on the left with the blue nodes is the one I did the one on the right with all the red nodes is the one from the dxf file that is posted. I would not trust the drawing that was posted. would rather have the original one that was scanned in to work off of. One that all parts are nested ... The drawing of the part that I did has nine nodes the other I would not even begin to count. I find it easy to use the poly line and get very good results.

[scottp55]

Guys, I was just playing with the original as a puzzle, I wouldn't use mine either. That's why it was labeled unsmoothed. I was just intrigued with taking an object apart and practicing editing(I still need tons of practice). And yes, original was lousy with nodes.

[scottp55]

Good tips B and E, Thanks for the .zip Brady. Good luck Scott.

[shilala]

Brady, awesome job. Thank You a ton, brother.
Odd thing. I finished my iteration last night and I think I did it much the way you did it.
Only thing is I tried tracing first. The results were ****, which caused me to make this post to ask about fit. I tossed all that.

Next, I traced the entire pattern using "draw an arc".
Then I selected all the vectors and used "fit curves to selected vectors" to clean up the all the extra nodes, getting her down to brass tacks.
At that point, I had a nice, clean pattern I could work with.
To make each individual piece I'd choose the vectors necessary, copy and paste that piece in it's place, then move the copy out of the way, trim off unwanted vectors, join open vectors, then move the piece, building my puzzle as I went. The copy and paste was necessary because I couldn't just steal the vectors from the original, I'd need them for adjoining pieces.

Gene, the original pattern is from a pdf version of a magazine, scanned in **** resolution.
The reason I uploaded it as a bmp was so that it lost no resolution in the process of turning it into a jpeg.
One thing that has helped me very much is all the time I have working with photoshop. I used to drag stuff to photoshop before going to Aspire. Now I seldom, if ever, go to photoshop. Aspire does everything that photoshop can do as it translates to the shopbot.
The reason I mention that is that you can't polish a turd. The original pdf was a turd, and it left nothing to work with.
I think you got your Scotts confused, too. Scott P. just did a quick and dirty to show his puzzle idea. You were absolutely right about all the nodes. If you use the process I mentioned above, you'll see how you can minimize the nodes right from the git.
Thing is, you can't make the pieces and then fix the nodes. You have to fix the nodes and then make the pieces. Otherwise they won't fit.

Brady's iteration was better than mine. It was cleaner and fit better. That's because he has lots more skill than yours truly.
By seeing what he did compared to what I did, he just taught me lots more.
So did the Aspire videos I watched this week. Last week I couldn't have even done what I did. :D

[Brady Watson]

No problem, Scott. This sort of exercise keeps me in tune...When doing this sort of design where the vectors need to be shared, think about creating segments rather than entire profiles. Then copy and paste onto a unique layer the segments you need to make up each numbered set. Wash, rinse, repeat.

-B

[shilala]

No problem, Scott. This sort of exercise keeps me in tune...When doing this sort of design where the vectors need to be shared, think about creating segments rather than entire profiles. Then copy and paste onto a unique layer the segments you need to make up each numbered set. Wash, rinse, repeat.

-B
That crossed my mind after I had joined a bunch of vectors.
Even to go cut the vectors at ends would be quicker, making segments after fitting curves to the whole wee-yoo.
Question. Why make all the .eps files?

[Brady Watson]

Question. Why make all the .eps files?

I saved out each layer so that you can pull them in one at a time. It is challenging to select individual vectors that have coincident contours with surrounding shapes when they are assembled. More work for me, but easier for whoever uses them. The .CRV has all the vectors on one layer. I didn't break them out into individual layers in case there was a compatibility issue - this was done in v2.5 to make sure the most number of people can open it up. When you import each EPS, it will create it's own layer in VCP or Aspire. Then you can toggle them on & off as needed.

Regardless of what CAM software you use - if you just select ALL the shapes and apply a v-carve toolpath to it, you'll often get problematic results. The toolpath may take a very long time to generate, and when it does it isn't what you'd expect. So, if you were to v-carve this design, select regions that don't touch each other and toolpath them. It may take a number of v-carve toolpaths to get the overall result you want, so keep that in mind.

-B

[shilala]

Understood. Thank You, Brady.
I should have showed a pic of what this is gonna be.
I'd like to use Cherry, and probably will, because if I make it of of black walnut, I'm guessing Miss Lisa won't like it.
I may grind out a lid and toy with different woods for the stems and leaves.
The pearls are the part that's gonna hurt. :D

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad96/scottshilala/rosebox_zps06b562db.jpg

[myxpykalix]

I would think any woman would like to get a pearl necklace:eek:
But you would hope the custom box it comes in would be more valuable.:D

[bleeth]

That Rose ain't no V-carve cut! That is a 2.5 relief. Recreating it will be fun. Don't know about Vectric, but there have been some outstanding Rose reliefs in AC Pro kicking around for years.
I'll check my files out manana Scott and send an STL if I can find one.

[genek]

For some Intarsia plans and other plans that can be traced and used with the shop bot go to www.sherwoodonline.com or www.sherwoodcreationsinc.com

I have Intarsia plans that are no longer in production which was done by Judy Roberts Father and Some of her earlier designs that are no longer in production.

[shilala]

Ya know, I wasn't going to get the pearls to go with the box, but I caved.
I called my buddy about it tonight, he's going to let me know what he has in the morning.
Don't tell Miss Lisa!!! :D

[bcondon]

I love Judy Robert's work so I was going to automate the cutting and then
sand and fit together.

I ran a bitmap in on one of her Teddy Bears and the converted to vectors
using Aspire.

What I found (as I would expect) is that each piece was a closed object
independent of anything else.

If I cut any of the pieces, they did not fit well with the adjoining piece (a chisel would have done a better job!)

What I believe needs to be done is:

1. Use a cad/drawing system (not Aspire) that will give you a single line for the adjoining piece (vector)
2. Clean up that line by hand if needed and never change that geometry again except to rotate.
3. duplicate the entire piece onto a HOLDING layer as a holding spot
4. make a layer, copy the vectors that make up the piece and linked them together to make an Closed object that Aspire would understand.
5. After all the pieces are complete, then move the pieces onto the piece of wood and the grain direction (either by layers or by parts)
6. Make toolpaths for all the pieces on each piece.
7. Cut all toolpaths using .125 or smaller endmill
8 sand and taper as necessary...

Now you have the pieces by grain/wood and the pieces should be absolutely tight because all the adjoining edges are made from common vectors.

This is what I thought needed to be done... I could not figure any other way to get tight adjoining edges.. The machine should give me cutting tolerances within the .001s of an inch which is good enough.

This is a lot of investment in time.

Suggestions?

Thanks
Bob Condon

[genek]

I love Judy Robert's work so I was going to automate the cutting and then
sand and fit together.

I ran a bitmap in on one of her Teddy Bears and the converted to vectors
using Aspire.

What I found (as I would expect) is that each piece was a closed object
independent of anything else.

If I cut any of the pieces, they did not fit well with the adjoining piece (a chisel would have done a better job!)

What I believe needs to be done is:

1. Use a cad/drawing system (not Aspire) that will give you a single line for the adjoining piece (vector)
2. Clean up that line by hand if needed and never change that geometry again except to rotate.
3. duplicate the entire piece onto a HOLDING layer as a holding spot
4. make a layer, copy the vectors that make up the piece and linked them together to make an Closed object that Aspire would understand.
5. After all the pieces are complete, then move the pieces onto the piece of wood and the grain direction (either by layers or by parts)
6. Make toolpaths for all the pieces on each piece.
7. Cut all toolpaths using .125 or smaller endmill
8 sand and taper as necessary...

Now you have the pieces by grain/wood and the pieces should be absolutely tight because all the adjoining edges are made from common vectors.

This is what I thought needed to be done... I could not figure any other way to get tight adjoining edges.. The machine should give me cutting tolerances within the .001s of an inch which is good enough.

This is a lot of investment in time.

Suggestions?

Thanks
Bob Condon

Bob what I do is trace each part by hand using the 3 point curve tool, (poly line) most of my work I do in corel first then export it to aspire.. I have used corel longer than aspire but they both have the same kind of tools.. if you want send me the scanned in drawing and I will send it back as a dxf ...
or aspire.

Judy's father was great do not know of you remember him... I have drawings that are no longer produced.. I always made copies then cut out each piece on a thin sheet of Baltic birch, I have patterns cut out that way in shoe boxes.. I used to make them for a company in Texas back in the 80's

[shilala]

I'm not sure who started the v-cut rumor, but nope, none of this is any v-cut at all. :)

I finished breaking out the pieces, but thought it senseless to create toolpaths to share being that everyone is going to use different sizes of lumber and would need to adjust accordingly. Making the toolpaths is about as simple and straight forward as it gets.
I'll use create shape from vectors to set the height for the pieces, 3d cut, then profile cut with tiny tabs or carpet tape.

Here's the folder with all the necessaries in there. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7115106/rosebox.zip)
The project is on page 48 of the .pdf.
Thanks to everyone for all the help!!! :)

[steve_g]

woops… the link doesn’t seem to work…:(:confused:

SG

[shilala]

It's still uploading, Steve. My bad. I didn't expect it to take forever to go up. It says another hour.

[shilala]

The link works now. Dropbox was hung. I had to restart it to get the link to work. :rolleyes:

[steve_g]

Thanks Scott…
Just to put others at ease, it only took about 60 seconds to down load.
SG

[bcondon]

Eugene,

I could not find the answer to this and was wondering if you knew the answer.


If I purchase one of Judy's book and I made several copies of one of the pictures, can I legally sell them. I tried to find if Judy required a licensing agreement but have not had any luck finding the answer...

DO you happen to know?

Thanks Eugene!

Bob Condon

[adrianm]

There's an FAQ section on her website that covers that.

[genek]

Eugene,

I could not find the answer to this and was wondering if you knew the answer.


If I purchase one of Judy's book and I made several copies of one of the pictures, can I legally sell them. I tried to find if Judy required a licensing agreement but have not had any luck finding the answer...

DO you happen to know?

Thanks Eugene!

Bob Condon

you can not legally sale them with our her permission.
any copy righted material may not be copied and sold with out permission to do so. I would not even do it without written permission.

[steve_g]

I’ve been playing with the Rose intarsia pattern… It’s about the size parts my back Dr. will let me lift right now! I grouped the parts into zones of thickness and cut the perimeters the depth called for. I then separated the zones, put masking tape on the face and ran the zones through the band saw at the desired depth. I shaped the parts with a Dremel tool and glued them up. I used some Cedar drops for my test project and was glad I had… When I do a nicer wood I now have a better Idea of the shapes I want to grind them to.

SG

[genek]

supper nice Steve.... Looks great. I would stain that and keep it.

[Bob Eustace]

I’ve been playing with the Rose intarsia pattern… It’s about the size parts my back Dr. will let me lift right now! I grouped the parts into zones of thickness and cut the perimeters the depth called for. I then separated the zones, put masking tape on the face and ran the zones through the band saw at the desired depth. I shaped the parts with a Dremel tool and glued them up. I used some Cedar drops for my test project and was glad I had… When I do a nicer wood I now have a better Idea of the shapes I want to grind them to.

SG

Imagine how fantastic your work would become if you were crook for a bit longer. Very nice work by the way!

[Bob Eustace]

Scott on your bad back and op. This article I received this morning makes a lot of sense and well worth a read I reckon.

http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2014/01/31/back-pain-exercise.aspx?e_cid=20140131Z3_DNL_art_1&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20140131Z3&et_cid=66919329&et_rid=413775134

[shilala]

Hey guys, I finally got the Rose Box done.
Here's the folder with all the necessaries in there, just in case someone wants to bang one out. It's been a group project from the start, I hope some of you guys can get some mileage out of making one for your woman.. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7115106/rosebox.zip)
The project is on page 48 of the .pdf.

Yours looks awesome, Steve!!!
Here's mine, pics are losuy, but they'll do.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad96/scottshilala/Shopbot/3EE1F01A-610B-4042-BB1E-C5504BDC1E36_zpsgqlkr0ce.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad96/scottshilala/Shopbot/C353734D-3CBD-42C1-B175-CDC3EC1E9126_zpsqciyex8j.jpg

[shilala]

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad96/scottshilala/Shopbot/53F58AAD-EE0B-49F9-9CB2-B45BCD68111B_zpsj2x3s06q.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad96/scottshilala/Shopbot/32B2450D-C249-478B-9E2A-F16E8FC73925_zpsrkgnkn8a.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad96/scottshilala/Shopbot/3B583E95-E757-4E11-A416-3E950E13075A_zpsdgmt9t2x.jpg

[myxpykalix]

Beautiful work Scott......for all the work you put into this i hope you get "lucky":D

[scottp55]

Looking good! Been a while since you first tried--you stuck to it! Good work.

[shilala]

It just took me this long to get it done, Scott. :D
Lucky, check.