I need advice relating to Shopbot Desktop vs Shark Black Diamond CNC'S

[rtswallow]

I need advice. I am currently interested in purchasing a CNC router system. I have narrowed my search down to the Shopbot Desktop or the Shark Black Diamond HD for the carving work I need done. I know all the specs related to both systems. I know Shopbot has a great reputation for product durability, accuracy, and reproducibility of cut because of its metal frame design and electronics. I also know the Shark's previous model CNC's have had gantry and etc. problems for flexing, because of nonmetal parts and marginal gantry design. I also know for the items I need for my application, that Shopbot's price is about $1,500 more than Shark's. Can you tell me if you have heard or know whether the Shark's gantry and etc flexing problems have been eliminated in their latest Shark Black diamond CNC? I must have a system that is consistently accurate in x,y, and z routing. Sloppy variations in x, y, and z router bit carving cannot be tolerated for my applications. What can you tell me about your experience with the Shopbot Desktop and other systems you have used? What would you recommend as a one time purchase for a retired Biomedical Engineer/High school science teacher who makes many different wood crafts for the general public? I want to add a new dimension of carvings to my hand made crafts.

Rog Swallow

[myxpykalix]

I think you pretty much made the case yourself for why you should get the Shopbot. I know nothing about the model you speak of but just based on your description it pretty much come down to this question:

Do I want to pay $1500.00 more for an accurate, reliable machine with no mechanical failings in design and durability based on the fact that as a Biomedical Engineer/High school science teacher I have strict standards and tolerances i need to adhere to?
Or do I want to save $1500.00 on a piece of **** that ultimately will not perform to my standards?

All I can say is....Enjoy your new Shopbot:D
Another thing you can evaluate is this forum is a wealth of experience and knowledge and there isn't anything that you can ask that (somebody) here doesn't have the answer to...plus Shopbot tech support is great:)

[Bob Eustace]

Rog the short answer is one is a Rolls Royce and the other is a Fiat Pinto. After sales and support from Shopbot can only be called Platinum and it truly is for life even if you buy second hand. The Shark forum is good but does not have the technical depth found here. I sadly wasted a year of my life trying to get a Shark to perform reliably and eventually got my money back. The Desktop was not available at the time. There truly is no comparison between these two companies. Best of luck!

[garyr6]

I have owned both.... if I had started with the bot I would only have owned one.......the $ difference will be made up in short order with support, more production and that intangible, happiness with your machine. There is little comparison between the machines, the desktop is just better in so many ways.

[scottp55]

We started out looking at chinese machines last April, looked at Sharks in June, looked at just about everything until we bought a Desktop in August. In large part because of this forum, the Shopbot crew, and finally the machine itself. We followed the saying "Buy your second machine First!" Words aren't enough, but we bought our second Desktop in January. Here's 4,000 more words(and I've never run a CNC before the first week of September).

[Burkhardt]

I used to own a Shark ProPlus 3 years ago (not the HD or black version though) and had some split feelings about it.
Pro:
- It works
- Back then it used to have a good forum. I believe nowadays they clamped down on critical comments.
- I learned a lot about CNC work
- I used it to make the parts for my own home built machine
Con:
- It was not very rigid and overall a bit flimsy. Machining hardwood with good accurately required some serious speed limits. That said, I machined a few aluminum pieces for the new machine with it. Small bit, shallow cut and slow speed made it possible.
- The control software (not sure if they have something new) really sucks. It was primitive. At some point I retrofitted the controller intended for my new machine to the Shark to finish the work.

When I had my new machine running I sold the Shark and did not shed a tear. Considering that I kept the Vcarve software I did not loose much money.

My suggestion would be to buy the Shopbot. I don't have one myself but I hang around here because it is a good community with many professionals who have good advice or other feedback on the things you do.

FWIW I spent about as much on the materials of my home built machine as a Shopbot desktop costs. But that was mostly because I liked the challenge and it was fun (and I did not skimp on the good stuff). Otherwise I traded a somewhat bigger size and the prize of accomplishment for 6 months of evening work.

Go for the Shopbot!

[Joe Porter]

Back in my wrench-turning days, I used to balk at the expense of a Snap-On tool and would look at the low cost import and decide on the latter. Later on, after a lot of band-aids to help hold my busted knuckles together, I would search out my Snap-On dealer and gladly pay what he wanted. The moral of this story is that my new Snap-On wrench cost the price of the tool and the low cost tool together. Not very good economy and a lot of lost skin...Go ahead and save yourself some money and buy the Snap-On, oops, I mean the Shop-bot...joe

[lrheimpel]

I would go with the Shopbot for all the reasons everyone else has given.

If your budget is tight, look around for a used Shopbot. I saw one desktop online 2 or 3 months ago for about half the price of a new one.

I had my Shopbot Buddy since 2010 and I love it. This forum provides just about all the answers you need and that is by reading posts alone. There is a lot more that you get with a shopbot besides the machine itself.

[Bob Eustace]

Great post Joe! Lessons lerant the hard way. Same theory applies to Festool. You dont realise what you have been missing till someone buys you one and then you no longer buy on price!

[rlwagner]

After a month with my Black Diamond I'm returning it for a refund. What a hassle! So much time lost!

I have used a friend's ShopBot, but went for the Black Diamond for several reasons. These reasons might make you choose the Shark and love it, but not for me. My reasons were:

- Larger area of 24" x 24" versus 24" x 18"
- Deeper Z-axis of 7"
- Superior control software, Shark is way ahead of ShopBot here
- Costs $1,000 less

I also saw the Legacy Explorer at a trade show. Excellent machine, probably more solid than a ShopBot. Better in some ways than ShopBot but only had a 3" Z-axis, although with 24" x 24" X and Y. Turns out that the 3" Z is not a problem due to the table design and that you can adjust the router mounting. So, the 3" limit ONLY affects actual running depth and not the thickness of material. The Explorer is an excellent machine. Priced the same as ShopBot.

The Shark seemed like a no-brainer to me.

But as soon as I opened it, I knew it was a mistake. It's nearly all plastic. And it's a slick plastic like Teflon. Within 20 minutes of usage the router slipped right down in the mount, and it was tightened as much as possible. You'd have to see the design to understand, but it couldn't get tighter. I called Rockler and they didn't care, and sent me to Next Wave. They immediately confessed to a design issue and sent an extra mount so I could double up. They also said they are redesigning the mount, but made no promises.

The double mount has held, but I cannot get consistent, accurate results. I am machining delicate parts and need high accuracy. The Shark varies even on a single run. I have run tests where I make three 1-inch square pockets of. 0.10" deep, side by side, and cut them all with a single tool path. The depths vary. For example, 0.088" and 0.095" and 0.115". On a single run. Next test run gives me three slightly different depths. I expect and NEED all three to be 0.10" deep. This is just one example. I could go on and on. I never get the same depths. I can cut a 0.10" pocket and have it come out 0.125" or 0.06". Ridiculous.

The Shark gantry isn't the issue, however. So the Next Wave folks will cry foul if you blame that. Although it's plastic, it's reinforced with aluminum and is very rigid. The issue is the Z-axis mechanism. It flexes a ridiculous amount. I jiggle it by hand and can see it flex up and down, easily, and far.

Yesterday I took my test pieces to a friend who has a ShopBot and everything came out exactly as I programmed in VCarve. Depths are perfect. And I grabbed the router assembly and tried to jiggle it and it's immovable.

It's a sad trade-off, however, because the ShopBot control software is way behind. I will sorely miss my Shark control software. And I will sorely miss the 24" x 24" x 7" capacity.

But I need the accuracy. After more than a month with the Shark I have not carved a single piece I can use. I've lost weeks of time and wasted lots of wood.

If you're a hobbyist and just want to cut out some fun signs, the Shark would be great, let you make larger signs, be easier to run, and cost less.

But if you need accurate, consistent results from a precise design, then that's not possible on the plastic Shark. Just not possible.

Mine goes back now and I'll probably get a ShopBot, although I'm still considering the Explorer. I think my friend will upgrade to a new Explorer and I'll buy his used ShopBot. Either way, I'm getting steel construction.

[rlwagner]

After reading more of this thread, I thought you might wonder why I said I loved the Shark Control Panel.

I'm talking about the 2.0 that comes with the Black Diamond. It's awesome.

You get to see your piece laid out graphically on the screen and you can watch it cut to know exactly what's going on behind the dust covers.

It has a Virtual Z feature that you'd have to read about. It's awesome.

It is rich with keystroke commands, which lets me use a Bluetooth keyboard and stand right next to the Shark while I run it. No need to touch your laptop, which stays up on a shelf behind a dust-screen window I made. Cool!

With keystrokes, you can change the jog speed from Fast to Medium to Slow to Step, and you can set Step to whatever you want. Picture yourself with your eyeballs right on the tip of your tool bit, with the jog set to 0.10" and tapping the arrow keys for that final adjustment. Then you hit Alt-X and Alt-Y and Alt-Z when you're positioned. Then Ctrl-R to Run. Very nice.

I will miss the superior Shark Control Panel, but no matter how good the software is, the flexing of the plastic Shark will not permit accuracy that matches what the software says you'll get.

I hope ShopBot will try Shark 2.0 and upgrade. At least they can do that easily. No amount of programming will help a Shark---they need a new machine design.

[adrianm]

I suppose the Virtual Z is a useful thing if you have a need for it but I must admit during the 8 years I've been running a CNC based business I've never had the need for it.

SB3 is entirely keyboard driven so I don't understand that bit of the comparison. You can change the jog speed in the same way, zero the axes and run the file all from the keyboard.

SB3 has a file progress indicator that draws out the toolpath as it's being cut as well. You need to be in Full mode rather than Easy mode to see that.

[srwtlc]

No offense meant, but all the above can be done with SB3 too.

Virtual Z could be done too, but in reality wouldn't be that useful and with the bot, you shouldn't have the problem of distorting the table when clamping down your material.

Keystrokes (http://www.shopbottools.com/ShopBotDocs/files/SBG00253%20Command%20Ref%20V3%202009%2011%2015.pdf ) galore, and I use a small wireless keyboard with a touchpad and can do it all. Just need a large screen on the wall behind the machine. ;)

Is the console perfect, no, but are any.

[wespor]

I've had my Desktop for 3 months now, prior to that I spent 6 months stressing over which CNC to buy. CarveWright dropped off my list fairly early but the Shark vs ShopBot was a tough decision.

I posted on both forums quite frequently and in the end it was something here that Brady Watson pointed out that tipped the scale for me, he described the ShopBot as being "overbuilt" for it's size and it's the kind of happy mistake you'd expect from ShopBot's first attempt at miniaturization.

I worked with a full size ShopBot at a door manufacturing company several years ago and it was a workhorse that could handle anything and I've gotten the same impression out of the Desktop. I'm not running a business on this router now but I rest easily knowing that I could if/when the opportunity arises.

[rlwagner]

No offense meant, but all the above can be done with SB3 too.

Gentlemen, my apologies. I did not write clearly at all. Sorry. :rolleyes:

I have barely used the SB control panel, just a few minutes on a friend's machine. So, I had no business writing about it.

My friend is a very experienced SB user and has been at it so long that he clearly has missed that there have been upgrades that added the graphical depiction and other things about which you all wrote. He no doubt is just using what he's familiar with. When he saw my Shark software he said he wished that his SB had those features. He will be glad to know it does now, but he needs to switch modes.

He did admit that he hasn't read the manual in a long time and he wondered if there had been updates.

Uh, duhhh, yeah! Apparently so. I will tell him to catch up! He'll laugh when this SB rookie shows the veteran a few new tricks.

I am very glad to hear about the extensive keystroke support. I also used a wireless keyboard to control to Shark so I could be close to the work. I no doubt will do the same with my SB when it arrives. I returned my Shark yesterday.

Thank you for your replies. :)

[jerry_stanek]

That feature has been there ever since I had my first Shopbot.

[chiloquinruss]

I haven't been following this thread, but what you should do is download the control software and run it in 'preview' mode, no BOT required and no charge for the software. There is no comparison better than running the actual software. I ran the software for a couple of weeks while I was waiting for my Bot to be built. When my machine arrived was I was making stuff within hours. Very cool! Russ

http://www.shopbottools.com/mSupport/controlsoftware.htm

[rlwagner]

The preview feature is fabulous. Thank you.

FWIW---My SB friend told me that he hasn't updated the software in a long time. He loves the new features.

BTW---
I really appreciate that SB lets us preview the software. I think the President could launch a nuclear strike with shorter codes than it takes to active the Shark control software. Very long strings and everything has its own code, the controller, the software, even the touch plate has to be registered with this super-secret code. And even after you've paid up and it's registered, it won't run even on your own laptop unless it is connected the the Shark and the Shark is on.

Thanks for the kind tips.

[BillSolomon]

Take my word, don't get sharked, go Desktop. I owned a shark before, and had Unpleasant experience:mad: