Strange noise and nasty vibration

[Randy Bogardus]

I have just completed the set up on a new Standard 96x48 with a 4hp single ph spindle. When I initially was able to move the machine around with the keypad it ran pretty smoothly without any sounds I wouldn't expect. But...at the point of starting into spoil board surfacing bad sounds and vibrations have arisen. The surfacing process started normally and about half way around on the second pass the vibration and noise started. I have adjusted the the pinons from quite tight to quite loose with similar result and there looks to be ample grease in the rack/pinon. As you can see from one of the video clips, when I pulled the motors from the gantry and ran them they run smoothly and quietly....maybe more quietly in one direction than the other but certainly smoothly. I've tried moving the gantry squared up and not squared up with the same result. So, I am at the point of being out of options to try based on my limited experience. I have attached three video clips with sound and am hoping some of the really experienced SB'ers will have time to take a look. I'm really afraid to run the machine for fear of snapping a tooth off of the rack or pinion....it's really that bad.

[gc3]

don't see any links...

[steve_g]

Randy…
I didn’t see any clips but would like to know what cutting speeds you’re using with that surfacing bit?
SG

[Randy Bogardus]

Trying to get the clips attached....doing something wrong....regarding the cutting speeds, I've tried slow to fast with same result but far worse on the faster end of the spectrum. The vibartion/noise occurs also when moving from the command console without surfacing happening. Pinions looks clear of the rails and motors run smoothly off of the gantry. I'll try attaching a clip again. Thanks for the input!

Randy

[gc3]

drop the motors move gantry by hand any binding?

[Randy Bogardus]

Gantry rolls very smooth w/o motors engaged...motors run smoothly off the gantry.:confused:

[Randy Bogardus]

Trying to get the clips attached....doing something wrong....regarding the cutting speeds, I've tried slow to fast with same result but far worse on the faster end of the spectrum. The vibartion/noise occurs also when moving from the command console without surfacing happening. Pinions looks clear of the rails and motors run smoothly off of the gantry. I'll try attaching a clip again. Thanks for the input! I tried reattaching the clips and they are too large. I'll have a go at some shorter ones.

Randy

[Randy Bogardus]

Steve, to address your question more specifically regarding surfacing speeds, I haven't restarted that operation but have figured out that in "jog" mode I don't get the seriously bad vibration at 2" ps but do get it at 3" ps. I know the machine moved smoothly when first up and running at 3" ps so not sure what to think. Very perplexing. Still trying to create a clip short enough to attach.

Randy

[gc3]

run a comms speed test

[steve_g]

Randy
Since it’s a new ShopBot, Please call tech support. They may have you back to normal in no time all!
SG

[Randy Bogardus]

Good suggestion....I ran across that idea last night here on the forum, as well. Forgot about it this morning so thanks.

[jerry_stanek]

Have you dropped the steppers and run them to see if both X run.

[Randy Bogardus]

Jerry, yes, I've had both steppers out several times and they both run smoothly.

[Randy Bogardus]

Thanks Steve, yes I'll phone them tomorrow. I have been emailing with them all day and last evening with no solution. It was suggested here that I should run a speed/comm test. I've gone to c:\program files\shopbot\diagnostics but can't find the speed/comm test. Thanks for bearing with this newbie! :-)

Randy

[Randy Bogardus]

Pretty awful....I actually got part way through a few passes of spoil board surfacing and it was cutting smoothly at 6"ps. I stopped it because it was cutting too deep, tried to restart and it just about jumped off the rails. I'm pretty disheartened at this point. Not sure how to run the speed test, machine moved fined for a week and a half at pretty much any jog speed, now it won't do anything smoothly, sometimes. I know it's me, but Shotbot doesn't seem to have a solution and I don't either.;:confused:

Randy

[gc3]

reload control software and firmware

dbl ck all cable connections

ck for grounding issues

[Randy Bogardus]

thanks, Gene, I'll try that...........

[gc3]

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/tags.php?tag=speed+test

2nd post.....

[Randy Bogardus]

Thanks again Gene. I had done a search for that but never found it. I appreciate you going to the trouble to dig it out.

Randy

[gc3]

search box sb home pg not forum search

same as other forums....

[srwtlc]

Randy,

Depending on what version of SB3 you're running, you may not have the old speed test program as it's not applicable to the newer software (3.8.XX). With 3.8.XX, you make a small move with a MX command (MX,10) and then UD to see what the packet-et is at the bottom of the screen that comes up.

Make sure you're not plugged in to a USB 3.0 port (blue inside).

Try a UR and reset to the defaults for your machine.

[Randy Bogardus]

Gene: thanks.

[Randy Bogardus]

Scott: Thanks, I'll give that a try in the AM. I did experience a smooth running table surfacing run.....for two passes, then I thought the machine was going to shake itself to pieces before I hit the stop switch. My plan for tomorrow is to (1) check the speed as you describe, (2) reload the control software and firmware and (3) call Shopbot.

Thanks to all for the input. It's greatly appreciated!

Randy

[Randy Bogardus]

Gene: BTW I did check all the connections. Also, all the parts of the table are grounded into the electrical ground at the sub panel for the bot. I ran a bare copper ground wire through the dust collection pipe and also wrapped one around the pipe and connected the bare wires to bare steel on the dust system blower. One of the first things I thought about when this problem came up was, "did I get the grounding right?" and did I fry the drivers for the motors? I couldn't sleep last night thinking about that but it really seems pretty solid. My control computer is a brand new Windows 7 machine without a bunch of **** on it but I will thin out even the basic stuff after reading the posts you forwarded. Thanks again.

Randy

[jerry_stanek]

What version SB3 are you running. If it is 3.8.xx try going to an older version 3.6.46 you can download it from the Shopbot support page

[scottp55]

Randy, when cleaning computer out make SURE anything that has an automic update IS shut OFF. My brother supposedly did a "Black Viper-bare bones" on our new control computer, but it was doing strange stuff until I noticed windows update was searching for a connection! Shut ALL automatic updates to off and problems went away. It's not and never will be connected to the internet so it just kept trying at random times. Scott W. and Brady helped me with packet et #'s. My numbers were too high until I plugged the USB back into the SAME port I installed it on- Not sure why that worked, but it did.

[Randy Bogardus]

Still no resolution on this problem. I went through all of the suggestions made here with the exception of downloading an older version of the control software. Checked grounds, swiped clean the computer except for essentials, rebooted everything, uninstalled/installed everything, reset defaults, checked for proper usb, and am finding that what was one axis is now all the axis in terms of rough running motors....but/and.....it's intermittent....and it's clearly in the stepper motors not something mechanical in the machine set up. The motors will run smooth as silk for a short time then what I would call "ratchet" run which causes the machine to shake violently. I was able to observe this with the motors pulled from the rack. I actually ran the surfacing file and saw it happen....motors running great then...shake, rattle and roll....SP tech support said basically, "huh, never seen this before. We'll get back to you." An electrical engineer friend and fellow SB'er was standing there looking at the motors as this was happening and said, "power supply". I say, "huh" never seen any of this! :confused:

[jerry_stanek]

that does sound like a problem some have been having with the new software

[Randy Bogardus]

Thanks Jerry, today sounds like a good day to try an older version, then.....:D

[scottp55]

Randy, Try again on a clip. That would be very useful I think.

[Randy Bogardus]

Hi Scott, I can't seem to compress the file enough (tried a compressed zip file on a short clip) to get it to load. How is this normally done on this forum?

Randy

[scottp55]

Wrong person to ask. Technically challenged here:) Maybe someone who has done it will chime in. I just think a clip would probably make someone go "AHA" and would give others a clue if it ever happens to them. I know Graemes Desktop was making HORRENDOUS sounds that made me cringe after a "spacebar" stop, and within an hour Scott W had him going again with a simple UR. Good luck Randy, can only imagine how frustrated you are.

[Randy Bogardus]

Thanks, Scott. Yeah, pretty frustrating but I am working on being patient. I am learning more than if it had just fired the machine up and had it run but I have a nice job for it next week so I'm hoping to get it cutting by then. It also is interesting that SP tech support hasn't seen this with all the units out there.

Randy

[scottp55]

Randy, I didn't see anywhere what your packet et's were, Did you ever run it like Scott W recommended earlier?

[Randy Bogardus]

Yes, forgot to mention that we checked et-packets (with tech support) and they said it looked fine.

[scottp55]

Randy, It looks like Graeme posted it on Youtube and then just linked it back. Here's the thread, Does your problem resemble his youtube? By the way it was Jerry who solved the problem(sorry Jerry) But Bill and Paul gave good advice.http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18070&highlight=desktop+noise

[Randy Bogardus]

Hi Scott, First, thanks for the time you are spending helping me with this. It's pretty lonely out here at this point, so I really appreciate your input. The video looks and sounds nothing like what is going on with my machine. With the motors removed on mine and just observing the rotation of the pinion, the pinion looks like it is moving forward step by step rather than rotating smoothly. So what ends up happening is that the gantry, y car and spindle do a move/stop/move/stop/move/stop until the entire machine is literally pounding itself back and forth. I'm sure if I let it fun it would completely destroy itself.

Randy

[Randy Bogardus]

I hadn't thought of youtube clip,but this is what the pinion looks and sounds like when running in "problem mode".

http://youtu.be/uGQYorykjlc

[scottp55]

No problem Randy, been stuck in bed for ten days(another 2 weeks to go and I can only design so much before my brain frys) and been posting too much not relating to Shopbot. Glad to TRY to help. I've never posted youtube, can you try that and link back? Searching youtube and forum posts, much better description that time. Hoping their not seeing my name and going "Oh, him again" so you may want to post again to cover my name up:)

[Randy Bogardus]

....and this is the gantry moving with the pinion running as shown in the previous clip:
http://youtu.be/iZthhu-BVEE

[srwtlc]

Randy, do you have the option of trying a different computer? Don't worry about making sure it's stripped down, just make sure it's not trying to access the internet at the time and no extra usb connections. This should tell whether it's computer or controller related. If it's controller related, keep at them (SBHQ), and they'll come up with a resolution.

[Randy Bogardus]

Great idea, Scott. I'll head out and try my laptop now and post back. SB does seem to be interested solving the problem which IS encouraging! :-)

[scottp55]

Randy, 3.8.12?

[Randy Bogardus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no76BPcFwxo

Shake/rattle and roll!:rolleyes:

[srwtlc]

That's not good at all! What do you show for packet_et and static_et with that computer?

The attached diagnostic display information PDF may be helpful.

[Randy Bogardus]

Oacket ET = 12......I think it was 17. something yesterday when I checked.

[Randy Bogardus]

Scott W: Your suggestion of running another computer is appearing to be an astute call! I'm running the surfacing file right now and have gotten deeper into it (about 10 min of run time) than anything in 8-10 previous tries. I'm air cutting the entire file. Interesting that a brand new computer (windows 7) that has been swiped clean would have this sort of issue. Any suggestions as to what I might do to remedy the problem with the computer if this does prove to be the final answer?

Randy

[Randy Bogardus]

Air cut of the surfacing file complete! No glitches!! :) I'll cut for real now and see how it goes.

Randy

[jerry_stanek]

Some of the botters have a problem when running the new software on a multi core computer they have to force it to use just one core

[ssflyer]

Randy,

What brand of computer are you using? I know it's been mentioned in the thread, but did you make sure the 'Bot is connected to a USB 2 port, and not a USB 3 port? Did you try different ports?

Other thoughts: Any chance the USB device in Device Manager is showing up as a USB 1 device? (it will show up in Device Manager as a "Universal Host Controller", instead of an, "Enhanced Host Controller.")

Try right clicking on the host controller in Device Manager and selecting, "Uninstall." Then reboot and Windows will automatically scan and re-install the driver.

It definitely sounds to me like a communications issue.

Hope some of this helps. :)

[srwtlc]

Was that last video of the first computer?

It may just be an issue of a poor USB subsystem. I know that you're limited on ports on a laptop, but as Ron stated, be sure it's not plugged in to a 3.0 port (they have a blue tab inside instead of white). In your 'C:\Program Files (x86)\ShopBot\Diagnostics' folder, there should be a file called 'USBVIEW.EXE'. Run that to see what kind of controller the shopbot is on , enhanced or standard (this is easier than device manager to view). If at all possible, you should try to have the spindle control and the control box on separate controllers. You can swap them around and hit file/refresh in USB View to see were they have moved to. If not sure which one is which, unplug the spindle control and leave it out while checking the control box.

That Packet_ET is good on the test laptop.

I've never been a big fan of laptops for running these, but understand the appeal. Make sure that all power saving features are turned off and if possible, you may be able to turn off processor throttling in the BIOS.

For a test of the settings from one computer to the other, you could save the settings on the one that works and load them on the other. 'US' on one and then 'UR' on the other.

[Randy Bogardus]

Thanks, Ron. I'll give your suggestions a try. That is correct, I'm not plugged into usb 3, but will swap some things around to see if I can get the Dell Inspiron 3647 to run the Bot. I did get the surfacing file to run just fine on a Dell laptop I have so that pretty much narrows thing down to the computer I'd say! :D

Randy

[Randy Bogardus]

Thanks for more good suggestions to try, Scott W. It sounds like several little things can add up to a bigger issue. The vids I posted are all from the desktop that seems to be the problem (Brand new computer, right out of the box). No issues whatsoever with running on the Dell laptop. As you point out, it's likely something simple so I'll get into the weeds of it and make it "all good". Thanks again for sticking with me on this....it really put a big smile on my face to see the Bot doing something productive.

Randy

[jerry_stanek]

Just to see if this is the problem boot into your Bios and under proformance select disable multi core technology. You get into the Bios by hitting F2 as soon as you see the dell logo.

[Randy Bogardus]

Jerry, I got in there and disabled the multi core support, ran an air cut of the surfacing file and got the same problem after a pass and a half. I haven't done the other tasks you suggested yet but will this evening. Again.........thanks.

Randy

[Randy Bogardus]

Working through a few conditions in usb view, I see "ShopBot" in usb 3 port 3 which sounds like a no no, but I can't seem to get "ShopBot" out of port 3.

[Randy Bogardus]

Ok, got SB off of port 3 but not sure how to move to a different driver.

[srwtlc]

Can you post a screen shot of your USB View. If you have Win 7, you can use the Snipping Tool found in All Programs/accessories.

There was a time a few years back where the USB system on some Dell computers were quite problematic when trying to run ShopBots.

[Randy Bogardus]

I think I captured the screen shop here:

[srwtlc]

It's too small and low res to see. If you use the Snipping Tool program, make a new/rectangular snip, draw a box around the USB View window and save as a .jpg then upload it.

[Randy Bogardus]

Here are three screen shots that don't look good in that they show SB on port 3....I just can't figure out how to swap them around. I moved the location where they are plugged in in the back of the computer and also tried the uninstall and reboot operation but SB always connects at port 3.

[srwtlc]

Randy,

Port 3 is fine, it's the fact that it is on a USB 3.0 controller.

Let me see the whole view of USB View to see all available controllers. What you want to try to do is get it on one that is not listed as a USB 3.0 and preferably an Enhanced controller instead of Standard if it's available. You can move the SB control box USB cable to different USB ports on the back of the PC and then refresh the USB View window (File/Refresh) to see if it has moved to a different USB controller. It may always go to port 3.

You need to make a short move with a MX command (MX,4) and then open the diagnostic window (UD) so it gives you the packet_et. There was no value in your screen shot.

[jerry_stanek]

If your computer doesn't have a USB 2.0 you could put a USB 2.0 PCI card in Newegg has some starting at $10

[Randy Bogardus]

Thanks for all your help, Jerry.

Randy

[Randy Bogardus]

I just wanted to complete the loop here and thank everyone for the help. As it turned out the new computer I bought to run the Bot was running in compatibility mode. When we set it to run straight on Windows 7 everything started working correctly. Anyway, the Bot is running as advertised!

Randy