Finger/Box Joint Software

[Burkhardt]

I am working on another piece of custom CAM software. I have not forgotten about finishing the Maze software but I dug out a (currently more fascinating) old project to create tool paths for flat machined void free finger/box joints.

While I use my dovetail software occasionally, most of my project joints are just cut as plain box joints for simplicity and because I can cut the whole part out of a sheet or board without re-clamping. However, it bothered me that such simple box joints need dogbone fillets for the inner corners to avoid interference with the sharp cut edges.

The whole idea is to cut the joints with a ball end mill and to allow for some decorative patterns using varying finger lengths, either two sided or half blind. The pattern generation was not too bad but I gave up last year over the calculation of the tool paths. Anyway, after a few sleepless nights I finally figured out how to do it. Getting all the bugs out will take a lot more work but today I made my first successful joint.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MyyrsQyKWf4/U0tieIN1BTI/AAAAAAAAEuo/aFIKXxpV8XY/w1022-h798-no/ScreenHunter_01+Apr.+13+21.15.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ik9QaI6i38M/U0tiaXFvASI/AAAAAAAAEuY/qvEtuaA9-Yc/w1231-h862-no/DSC02329.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T6XL1jASLRc/U0tic1o55II/AAAAAAAAEug/KZV0P1pRPhI/w943-h862-no/DSC02332.JPG

[Bob Eustace]

Excellent concept Gert. Hope you perfect it.

[khalid]

Excellent as usual:) What programming language you use:)

[zeykr]

Very Nice!

[Burkhardt]

Thanks guys, this is a fun project. And probably more useful than mazes for other wood workers. I am envisioning to expand this with a kind of box/drawer wizard so that you just input the outer dimensions and it cuts everything automatically from a board or a sheet without drawing a single line in CAD.

On the practical side, I am struggling a bit with the clamping. The boards have to be held down flat better than 20/1000" or the joint will have visible gaps on the inside. That is easy with plywood sheet but boards are usually a bit warped or cupped. A surface skim would help but is not really practical. Any ideas?

Khalid: I am almost embarrassed to admit but I never got the hang of VB or other more modern visual tools. All my PC code is written in text based Liberty Basic (http://www.libertybasic.com/) (and compiled with the R.T. Russels' Liberty Basic Booster (http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/lbb/) tool). It makes the GUI a bit more work since it is not as simple as dragging boxes on the screen but I have all the code in one piece. I am just not a professional and old dog refusing new tricks. For microcontroller code I use Forth (http://www.forth.com/), an even more arcane programming language.

[dlcw]

On the practical side, I am struggling a bit with the clamping. The boards have to be held down flat better than 20/1000" or the joint will have visible gaps on the inside. That is easy with plywood sheet but boards are usually a bit warped or cupped. A surface skim would help but is not really practical. Any ideas?


Here is the board clamp down method I use. It is comprised of 3/4" MDO with tracks. I made simple hardwood hold down clamps for the tracks. I put the MDO on the CNC table, turn on the vacuum and it sucks the MDO flat as a pancake. I make sure my boards are flat using traditional flattening methods (jointer, planer, etc.) then use a wide drum sander to take any snipe out of the board. Then sand it using an ROS.

[Greencarvings]

This has already been done.

http://johnminor.com/bxjnt/


http://johnminor.com/dwrmkr/

[Burkhardt]

This has already been done.

http://johnminor.com/bxjnt/


http://johnminor.com/dwrmkr/

Well, it shows that great minds think alike :D

Interesting web based program and it does use the same principle of surface rounding. But if I see it right it can only do full depth finger lengths, even width and apparently no half-blind joints. This was actually the difficult part where I got stuck for a long time.

So, looks like there may be some additional utility in my program and I will surely continue to work on it. I find it also more convenient having a stand-alone program. I can make a change to the joint definition, check the resulting tool path and look at a cut simulation in less than a minute.

[Bob Eustace]

Gert - on getting your boards flat the simplest method is to buy a drum sander. Once you have one you will wonder how the heck you existed without it!

[scottp55]

Bob and all, How accurate are the drum sanders for thickness? Currently making two products out of 3-4 boards at a time that fill table surface of the Desktop and surfacing at 4IPS as they are all different by .002-.004" and some of the cuts are only .025 deep. Can't have cribbage board lines and countersinks disappearing on me like they do when I don't surface:) Balking at the price tag if it won't get me close to dead nut thickness.

[dlcw]

Bob and all, How accurate are the drum sanders for thickness? Currently making two products out of 3-4 boards at a time that fill table surface of the Desktop and surfacing at 4IPS as they are all different by .002-.004" and some of the cuts are only .025 deep. Can't have cribbage board lines and countersinks disappearing on me like they do when I don't surface:) Balking at the price tag if it won't get me close to dead nut thickness.

Scott,

Every piece of solid wood that goes on my CNC goes through the drum sander first. I have a Performax 22-44 that I've had for years. Mine is aligned for two pass operations meaning the end furthest from the motor is about .005 higher then the end closest to the motors. This enables the operator to run a board up to 44" wide though and then turn it end for end and hit the other side. You can also align the machine for one pass operations meaning both sides of the drum are exactly the same height.

If aligned properly they are extremely accurate. Never had a problem with any projects I've done using it to flatten my stock after jointing and planning it. I use a micrometer for checking thickness as I work. I leave a very small amount of extra wood thickness for ROS'ing to get a really smooth board.

I am getting ready to sell my Performax sander and go to one that has a drum head as well as a flap sander head so I can use it for finish sanding. A normal drum sander leaves noticeable sanding marks. Jet makes a sander (adapted from their purchase of Performax) that oscillates back and forth as it sands, supposedly making it smoother and the sanding marks aren't as noticeable.

[scottp55]

Thanks Don, Was concerned about the accuracy. Gotten into the habit of RO sanding the boards in between 3 of the bit changes and then a final 320G before unscrewing as it's easier than sanding the 12 5X5" pieces and only have to radius and sand edges. So no big difference between sanding mill marks or sander striations. Thanks

[gc3]

forget the drum sander a oscillating wide belt machine is the way to go...

wood moves with moisture changes expecting to achieve .002 to .004 results can be a challenge...

T movement is greater than R R is greater than L

[Burkhardt]

Gert - on getting your boards flat the simplest method is to buy a drum sander. Once you have one you will wonder how the heck you existed without it!

Noooo. I must resist.

But maybe if I move the washing machine and dryer out of the garage I could still fit another wood working machine? I will try to explain that to my wife. Washing in the driveway is not so bad for Southern California. :rolleyes:

On the serious side I could probably optimize and kick out some stuff I never use. Problem is the affordable drum sanders are a bit on the small side and look kind of flimsy (no objective evidence, though) and I could not justify a pro machine for my occasional use. But thanks for the hint. Maybe I should just build one.

[myxpykalix]

Because i don't fully understand your concept of how you are writing this program, what i think am decyphering for this conversation is that your material can't be out of whack by 2-4 thousandths hence the talk of the expensive sander.
I don't have one of those and the shopbot isn't even that accurate to 2-4 thousandths (at least mine isn't) so my question is...
Can you program each separate finger joint side to correspond to that pieces thickness OR
could you cut your individual finger joint sides to also include the thickness of the adjoining piece thereby eliminating the need to have the whole piece sanded or milled?
I hope you can see the line drawn on the piece indicationg the part that would be included in the cutting, and hopefully you understand the point i was making.

Also by cutting it "from table surface" rater then from "material surface" and have your fingers set at a specific thickness, wouldn't that eliminate thickness errors?

[Burkhardt]

......wood moves with moisture changes expecting to achieve .002 to .004 results can be a challenge...

Maybe I was not clear about that. I was talking about 20/1000" or 0.02" or half a millimeter. Anyway, that means a distortion where the glue is not going to fill the gap and you can see the error. Obviously the machine does not know that the board is warped and this is just the resulting gap (or interference). It is not so much a problem with my software but a general accuracy issue.

[Burkhardt]

.....Can you program each separate finger joint side to correspond to that pieces thickness OR
could you cut your individual finger joint sides to also include the thickness of the adjoining piece thereby eliminating the need to have the whole piece sanded or milled?
The software settings can be chosen for different thickness for each side and match up perfectly in a perfect world. Unfortunately, the boards are usually not that perfect. That is where I have the problem when warped or cupped. But I see that some folks her solve it not by forcing it flat but sanding flat. Got to think about that.


Also by cutting it "from table surface" rater then from "material surface" and have your fingers set at a specific thickness, wouldn't that eliminate thickness errors?
That is actually what I am doing right now. The zero is on the table surface. But it does not help if I specify 0.75" thickness for a board and it is 0.75" away from the surface on one side and 0.78" on the on the other side.

[khalid]

Khalid: I am almost embarrassed to admit but I never got the hang of VB or other more modern visual tools. All my PC code is written in text based Liberty Basic (http://www.libertybasic.com/) (and compiled with the R.T. Russels' Liberty Basic Booster (http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/lbb/) tool). It makes the GUI a bit more work since it is not as simple as dragging boxes on the screen but I have all the code in one piece. I am just not a professional and old dog refusing new tricks. For microcontroller code I use Forth (http://www.forth.com/), an even more arcane programming language.
Ohhh ....Thats a hell of work you doing then. However, this make you a perfect programmer. I bit you can program anything what you have in your mind:)
If you learn Visual Basic then you can make a CAD/CAM software without spending too much time on GUI:)
I really appreciate your efforts and programming skills:)

[Burkhardt]

You guys are bad company. It never occurred to me that I need a thickness sander. But since some of you mentioned it and I had a bit of trouble getting the boards flat enough, I ordered a drum sander. Oh well, I am telling my wife that will help keep me busy in retirement in a few years.

Obviously I can not afford one of the nice professional machines (or would have the space). But looking at reviews for moderately priced machines I opted for the Jet 16-32. I hope this is not a toy but let's see how far that will get me.

I did cut the parts for my first real project. Since the program is not totally reliable yet I used simple 1/2" BB plywood. I will do the next project in some prettier lumber.

This is a simple 14" x 9.5" x 4.5" box. My software makes the tool paths for the 4 side boards including joints, bottom/top rabbets and side cutout. There is still a bug making the rabbet come out to the side (see 2nd pic).

I used VcarvePro for the top and bottom as well as for slicing the lid off the finished brick with a 1/16" x 2" dia slotting cutter in the spindle. Now, I hope nobody will tell me I need a table saw to do that better.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wcHh-UzZeks/U12G2K4oasI/AAAAAAAAEwA/VSQ8Y6VqO1A/w1230-h862-no/DSC02341.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-T3g5wxa2tZA/U12G3uEMneI/AAAAAAAAEwI/vLgFTfp1eZU/w656-h862-no/DSC02341-001.JPG

[scottp55]

Here you go G. :) (For your new cabinet saw)

[Burkhardt]

Here you go G. :) (For your new cabinet saw)

Nah...I am immune to that ;)

While I can still fit the drum sander in my garage (provided I get rid of the pressure washer and a ladder), the only place to put a useful table saw would be in the living room or on the lawn. Both are not really good options although I would love to have one. Maybe I should try some nesting software to better pack the available space. Most of the equipment has to be on casters anyway, to drag out into the driveway to operate. I need to move somewhere else to have a real shop in a few years.

[scottp55]

Know how you feel G. . Barely enough room to swing my cat here:)

[myxpykalix]

You need to make do with what you have...:eek:

You know why? Because you are then faced with a new dilema.
I built my shop for conventional tools and all was fine. Then i bought my monster shopbot and that crowded my shop.
The answer... build an addition.

I built the addition and then found that i had extra room for more tools.
The answer... buy more tools to fill that empty space.

I'm now thinking of building another addition....:eek:
You see how this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy? The good news is that anytime i walk past tools i go "got it, got it, got it, don't need it, don't want it, got it, ect

So the morale to the story is....(everytime i write that, i'm reminded of "Aesop's Fables") "Tools...Make do with what you got...for it is a addiction for which there is no cure...:D

[khalid]

Offtopic.... Jack is that you with the LION?

[scottp55]

Ok Jack, Got it:) I rarely swing my cat in the shop anyways, and now that it's not sub-zero in the garage anymore, got room enough to swing a very small lion:)

[myxpykalix]

Yes that is me with a Lion we trained for movies and television his name was Arthur and that is one cat you would never swing by the tail!:eek: As a matter of fact i saw him once grab a model by the head and shake her like a ragdoll but didn't even break the skin when he could have crushed her skull!:rolleyes:

[Burkhardt]

You need to make do with what you have...:eek:...

Absolutely. But I don't really have a choice, given the size of the property.

In the meantime I got the drum sander, it is actually a pretty decent machine and after flattening a few boards I am indeed wondering how I could do without for such a long time :)

I put it on casters and used the lower level to place my planer that was just floating around so far. I got to bend down a bit to use it but that keeps me flexible.
And...I can still close the garage door. Yay!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hd5czpPniW0/U2sC_s8ilRI/AAAAAAAAEww/BN9LIAK73D4/w1040-h862-no/DSC02343.JPG

[scottp55]

G., What brand/model did you wind up going. How's the accuracy? Probably our next tool to buy. Thanks

[Burkhardt]

It is that white thing in the foreground, "Jet 16-32 Plus". It had about the best reviews in that price range (I paid $1199, free shipping no tax from ACME Tools through Amazon).

I was still torn between this and the SuperMax 19-38 but I had to draw the price line somewhere. Both of them have automatic feed slowdown when the drum motor is overloaded. I do like the stationary table of the Jet which should make attaching feed tables easy if I need to.

I did a test run without DC outside but I hooked up the dust hose quickly after I powdered the driveway in no time. I just used the factory adjustment but with 2 strips sanded on the left and right of the drum simultaneously I found a thickness difference of only 4/1000". With heavy passes that will be more due to flexing.

[scottp55]

Thanks G. , for some reason I haven't been getting your pictures for a couple months, got to track that down:( Appreciate the info.

[Burkhardt]

...for some reason I haven't been getting your pictures for a couple months....

I don't want to clog the forum server with my pics and just link to the image file on my Google+ account. Maybe that is the reason? Anybody else who can not see the picture of my cluttered garage 4 posts up?

[Burkhardt]

I made a bit of progress with the finger/box joint software. It is amazing hoe much can go wrong with such a simple concept. But I am almost ready to post some beta version if somebody wants to try it. In the meantime I added a "Randomizer" function to create wildly random finger patterns. Not sure if I like the result but a sure way to get started with some unusual joints. Below an example of my next box demo project (still in the works). It might actually have looked better with a more regular finger pattern.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-O8q0CLBrvfE/U4U9hyGmyqI/AAAAAAAAEy8/X81UPeG1ndE/w1417-h853-no/DSC02364.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-66MV37Hb_3c/U4VASKoZvbI/AAAAAAAAEzI/xKp2xyF7JbU/w1022-h797-no/ScreenHunter_01+May.+27+18.46.jpg

[myxpykalix]

Let me know when you get it ready, i'll test it out for you...been looking forward to this.:D

[scottp55]

Looking good G. , I could use something like that. Hope non-genius's can use it :)

[tri4sale]

Very interested in this, finishing setup up my Bot hopefully this weekend and would love to help you out with the Beta.

[Burkhardt]

Thanks for the interest. Right now I am writing up some instructions. I will let you know when available.

[SomeSailor]

I would also be interested. Sounds like a fun project. It could easily consume a person, but a fun project nonetheless. :)

[Burkhardt]

I would also be interested. Sounds like a fun project. It could easily consume a person, but a fun project nonetheless. :)

Oh yes...at least mostly fun. A few times I stopped working on it for a while because I got frustrated about on-going problems. The most difficult problem was identifying which of the internal edges to chamfer and how much when cutting fingers that are shorter than the board thickness. I am not yet totally satisfied but I have an algorithm now that works.

I broke probably a dozen bits trying out all the various combinations but I did that mostly with 1/8" carbide ballnose bits where I can get a 10-pack nowadays for $13.

[pappybaynes]

I would be interested in trying it out.
Thank you

[Bob Eustace]

Absolutely stunning work Gert!

[Burkhardt]

Thanks! In the meantime I finished the box.
- Surface sanded the outside of the glued brick to 220 grit. The inside was already pre-finished before I started cutting.
- Two soaking layers of Danish Oil outside, one day drying each
- Sliced the lid off the glued brick. Nerve wrecking job with the band saw but I got the 8" tall cut parallel to less than 0.04". Not so bad. Then planing the cut on the CNC.
- Sanding the surfaces smooth with 320 grit
- 7 or 8 layers of rattle can automotive acrylic clear coat applied within 30 minutes (almost continuously).
- buffing with 0000 steel wool after 3 hours
- curing a warm day in the sun
- polishing a few minutes with Maguires
- buffing with carnauba wax
- milling the holes for hidden hinges (another nerve wrecking job to get the box positioned on the table better than 0.02")
It has a nice warm glow and showy grain now. I am quite proud of the result. One thing that can still improve is the pore filling for the walnut side.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KKFhSNZpDRs/U4k6CPgkB9I/AAAAAAAAEzY/gFGeFhMayao/w1137-h853-no/DSC02366.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RzRaEjYFXoM/U4k6F7D4nVI/AAAAAAAAEzg/OWZluDfnIug/w1089-h853-no/DSC02367.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-keuWUOu72w0/U4k6HvVb8RI/AAAAAAAAEzo/kv8UBbbgh-U/w1202-h853-no/DSC02376.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rhO5iF9LfNQ/U4k6LFLB4ZI/AAAAAAAAEzw/HfSn16zQqrE/w783-h853-no/DSC02383.JPG

[scottp55]

Came out BEAUTIFUL Gert! Especially like the lid and interior. You SHOULD be proud!:)

[myxpykalix]

G,
this just proves you're talented with both your mind and your hands!!:eek::D

[Burkhardt]

G, this just proves you're talented with both your mind and your hands!!
:o Thanks...maybe my dad who was an arts and shop class high school teacher (back then there was such a thing) would have given me a "C" grade, because I did not do all it all by hand :rolleyes:
I learned a lot from him.

Anyway....somewhat reluctantly I published a beta of my software (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29562014/FingerMaker0_1hBeta.zip). I believe it works under most circumstances and is not going to blow up your Shopbot. It generates so far only g-code (not .sbp) but I checked the import function in the Shopbot demo and it looks like it loads just fine. Please let me know if you experience any funny side effects. This demo includes a user guide and I would also appreciate to know if there are incomprehensible parts in it.

Otherwise just unzip the file in a suitable place and run the executable. No other installation required and if you remove the folder it should remove any traces of this program. The folder contains a bunch of settings files to play with, however the demo/beta limitation will not allow g-code to be created for the more complicated ones. But it should definitely allow for thorough testing of what it can do.

There is still a known bug that it does not remember always the settings for box/drawer bottom grooves or rabbets. After re-loading a settings file you must check if they are still correct for your project before you create the g-code files.

The first 5 respondents who can show me pictures of a successful joint will get a free license for the full functionality (I will post the names). :D

[scottp55]

Thanks G., Ran an air cut today just to grasp it. Got to find a decent speed as never heard the Desktop make those noises before(it hit every single sour spot I must have) and was running a little to fast for me even though I had changed the speeds to what works very good in maple for me. Cutting ply sheet tomorrow just to make absolutely sure I know what and where it's cutting before I do a cherry/walnut 16pat, doing box with grooved bottom. Very interesting! Thanks again.:)

[Burkhardt]

Thanks G., Ran an air cut today just to grasp it. Got to find a decent speed as never heard the Desktop make those noises before(it hit every single sour spot I must have) and was running a little to fast for me even though I had changed the speeds to what works very good in maple for me. Cutting ply sheet tomorrow just to make absolutely sure I know what and where it's cutting before I do a cherry/walnut 16pat, doing box with grooved bottom. Very interesting! Thanks again.:)

Cool, thanks for trying. Just make sure the actual bit diameter is like set in the software. As for the speed I hope the Shopbot software interprets the feed rate command in the g-code properly, can not try this myself. Otherwise you should check and correct it manually.

The machine sound will likely be different from the usual cuts. The bit does not go down in depth layers like e.g. Aspire would normally do. For such a shape with many vertical surfaces that would take quite long and use mostly the bit tip. Therefore the bit goes back and forth in the finger slots in a stroking or sawing motion and removes material at full board thickness at a time. Since this involves a lot of z-movement you may hear the z-axis more often. The other advantage is this milling style is easier on the bit because not only the tip is working. It does however require restraint in setting the max. step width to avoid breaking small diameter bits.

The Beta will load the 16-pat.fin file and show the graph but can not create g-code for it. The maximum that can do is 4 fingers. In any case I would practice with cheap wood first. This is a Beta, after all.

[scottp55]

Ok, That explains it better, will play with speeds a little, never had resonance like that and don't like it. Yeah think I saw that about 16pat when I tried to create g-code but pressed OK again and got a .tap file. I thought the difference in the pattern was caused by changing to a .25BN. That pattern was VERY nice looking almost like a wave pattern. Very cool but didn't want to start with 1/8" bit. when changing to inch, gives some funky speeds:) In my aircut I gave it an extra inch over .75" "imaginary" board and was getting -.97" Z moves and was worried a little. Going to cut 3/4" ply with a 1/2" air to check outlines and still use scrap for facing in shop--want to make sure I'm centering the the grain features and hate wasting wood. Pretty cool Gert! Will also rereread pdf as I'm sure you've got that covered but may understand better now. Didn't really understand the shapes being cut by your preview pics. Visual learner here so pics and diagrams would have made instructions easier, and if I remember right under YY and XX alignment-in the description both were YY. If I can kinda grasp it anybody can do it. Have you thought about price--or did I miss it? 10-pack 1/8" FOR $13? Where?:)

[Burkhardt]

Thanks for the update I will check and enhance the user guide but this was only my first version.

The machining depth will be below the board underside! At least half the bit diameter because this is a ballnose bit and the cylindrical flute begins only one radius above the bit tip. If you specify some overcut for a clean edge (0.04 or so recommended) it will even go that much deeper. I will add a comment in the guide to put a sacrificial board or at least a few spacers under the work piece. This is less an issue when using a properly sized vac pod.

The cheap 1/8" bits are (what else....) from China
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171279617084

They increased the price now to $14 for 10 bits but free shipping. I bought a pack a short time ago and they work quite well. Not sure what the durability of the carbide is yet but the price is hard to beat and ideal for experimenting with a risk of breakage. The nice thing is the long flute of 22mm (~7/8") which allows cutting joints in 3/4" boards. Most 1/8" bits have only 0.6" flutes which are too short. I have not tried cutting a high quality surface 3d-part with them but who knows. It may work as well.

I also bought a set of 5 similar but TiN coated bits on Amazon for $15 (IIRC) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HD30JI0) and thought it was a US merchant but guess what, the package also came from China.

[scottp55]

Thanks G., On Ebay now so good timing. Yes, good to know about extra sacrificial board- Kept most settings default. Haven't gotten to pucks yet.:)

[Burkhardt]

I don't smoke for the last 35 years or so. But a stylish match box would be nice. :D

I am going to make the matching drawer tomorrow. This is cocobolo and alder, cut with a 1/16" ballnose bit.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i6Z3lSFOH-Q/U46wf0QXLHI/AAAAAAAAE0A/u6KPNFP77nE/w1520-h853-no/DSC02385.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ooUqcByXAJg/U46wh3AphSI/AAAAAAAAE0I/bpJTKHGCM9U/w1176-h853-no/DSC02391.JPG

[scottp55]

Got sidetracked today, but surfaced extra spoilboard and one side of cherry/black walnut. Tomorrow-other side to .75". A's cherry, B's walnut.
Gert, any idea (save me time) what feeds will give me about a .5" Z-speed? A lot of "Firsts" on this one for me. Thanks for the experience:)
Those look Good(Didn't get fancy with the pattern I see (wood thickness?) :)

[scottp55]

Gert, will full version be able to do wood as thin as your matchbox? After looking at that, tried to do a box from my exotic scroll saw wood that's prefinished 1/4" and hit the minimum thickness default. I like the "SwitchSides" too,but that 16pat is cool.

[Burkhardt]

Got sidetracked today, but surfaced extra spoilboard and one side of cherry/black walnut. Tomorrow-other side to .75". A's cherry, B's walnut.
Gert, any idea (save me time) what feeds will give me about a .5" Z-speed? A lot of "Firsts" on this one for me. Thanks for the experience:)
Those look Good(Didn't get fancy with the pattern I see (wood thickness?) :)

The g-code only contains a single feedrate command at the beginning. That means most CNC controllers will then execute motions in any direction at that speed. I would think the Shopbot does the same thing. If you specify e.g. a 60 ipm (1 ips) feed rate the bit will move in x, y, z or any diagonal direction at that speed. It may sound high for z-speed in most CAM programs, but in this software the bi will go down into the slot initially in a zigzag motion and then proceed horizontally or diagonally in thin slices. Difficult to describe.

You should be able to runan 1/8" bit at 80ipm (or higher for soft wood) and a 1/4" bit at 120-150 ipm provided the machine can handle such vertical speed.

[Burkhardt]

Gert, will full version be able to do wood as thin as your matchbox? After looking at that, tried to do a box from my exotic scroll saw wood that's prefinished 1/4" and hit the minimum thickness default. I like the "SwitchSides" too,but that 16pat is cool.

There is no size limitation in the licensed version. The box could be as small as 1/4" or you could build a log home with it. But the matchbox wood is only 1/10" thick and that is kind of a practical limit because everything becomes so fragile. It was a bit difficult to hold the wood (used double sided tape) and later removing the cut pieces from the tape without breaking. I am gaining a whole new appreciation for model builders who make such finely detailed parts from wood. It would probably be easier with basswood or similar finely grained material.

I am probably going to make a few more of the matchboxes with a small vcarve decoration as jewelry boxes. At least the lumber consumption is not going to ruin me.

[scottp55]

Thanks Gert, Just about ready to do another aircut but last .25+1/2 bit diameter will be into acx spoilboard(just want to make absolutely sure I've got placement right). Pretty sure 2IPS Z is my limit(only ever done 1 IPS and only in softer woods). Probably go 1 IPS but will try 2IPS total aircut first. Bad resonance was at 50IPM. Going to do final cut out with a VCP file---Do you have any provisions in mind for tabs in the future? Thanks

[Burkhardt]

......Do you have any provisions in mind for tabs in the future?....

I thought about it but did not try it yet. It would be really helpful for cutting from sheet material.
I could possible leave the first and last finger not trimmed and at least partly connected with the rest of the material. Not difficult to do but I has to be practical.

[scottp55]

G. , Help? When I ran the aircut the other day I left spindle off because it WAS an aircut. Just generated G-code for a "Switchsides" with .25BN and was running an aircut with the last 1/4" cutting into spoilboard to check 90IPM and SPINDLE DID NOT START! I feel like an idiot because the only way I can turn it on manually is a spindle warm-up routine(9 minutes). I tried a C9 and it only starts spindle for half a second. Going to be researching now, but I've NEVER programmed anything manually. If talking programming explain as you would to a total moron. Never needed it before. If anybody can help, that would be great.
Included(I hope) is the A .tap file as well as as a typical .sbp file that put 4 reference holes in my temp spoilboard to show center positions for the 4 sides.
Darn can't get it posted as a .tap,.sbp,.doc,or 7zip. Time to search:confused:

[scottp55]

G., I copied and pasted the header from the .sbp up to the spindle turn on and it seems to be working. Now if I can locate the SO,1,0 and insert it into yours and save as an .sbp. I should be good 90IPM still seems fast, but no resonance and will finish test cut.

[scottp55]

Gert, It's ALMOST a box:) still got some clean up and only left .001 glue gap so didn't want to push it anymore. Does it count? or have other people beat me to it? NEAT PROGRAM:) Long day, but wanted to finish it. Was way to conservative but may slow it down a tad because of tearout, would have helped if I hadn't cut through so far to be certain it was all the way through and used MDF instead of acx for spoilboard. Used VCP and profile outside for tabs,dado, and cutout using box dimensions from your set up.

[Burkhardt]

Pretty cool,

you are the first to present results! Not yet glued but it counts. If you PM your email and mailing address I will send you the license file right away. Well, it may take me a day or so....

forgot to mention...your cut is pretty clean but if you want to get rid of the fuzzies I found a nylon bristle brush or even a soft wire brush in the drill press very helpful.

[scottp55]

Just touched them for a second with 120G 3M Radial Bristle Discs and the majority came right off. All on the interior and mainly the walnut,interior and exterior cuts clean. Cut and glue bottom soon and then glue and Tung hand rubbed. Going to have to think about lid:) Thanks G. !

[bob_dodd]

OK I tried the software today , the box I made is 3"X6"x2.5" high , the material is .5 MDO plywood , I used a 1/8" ball nose bit , I did not have any issues with the software ( had to read PDF file ) great piece of software

does this count towards free lic ?

Thanks Bob

[Burkhardt]

....does this count towards free lic ?

Absolutely! Thanks for trying that. Please PM your email and mailing address and I will send it to you.

[scottp55]

Congrats Bob! Especially as you only downloaded this morning.:) I was putzing with 1/4" stock today. Need to get some smaller Ballnoses though to get the fancier joints with a 4X6X3.5" box. Tried to make the grain "wrap" around the box, and got a chance to try out my "almost checkering" on the outside. VERY important to get wood spec'd right and flat. Thanks G.

[tri4sale]

First try with some scrap 1/2 inch oak and the ball nose bit I had on hand... Very impressive software. Only the 3rd thing I've cut on my ShopBot since I got it :)

[scottp55]

Daniel, somebody pointed out to me you may have right side board in backwards, and I think I see a gap on the bottom too, so see if it needs flipping too. Very good for third cut and quite ambitious too-Good Job!
Gert, any licenses left? Where should we send comments and suggestions? Here- PM-Tailmaker?

[tri4sale]

Daniel, somebody pointed out to me you may have right side board in backwards, and I think I see a gap on the bottom too, so see if it needs flipping too. Very good for third cut and quite ambitious too-Good Job!
Gert, any licenses left? Where should we send comments and suggestions? Here- PM-Tailmaker?

Yes, I did have the right side board in backwards, and the board maynot have been 100% flat, but I was happy with my first try. Now to find some cheap (or free) scrap wood to keep playing and learning.

[scottp55]

You should be happy! Only done the 2 boxes, but mic'ing wood,bit, and keeping wood flat seem to be key. Surfaced first on Desktop,second box was supposedly thickness sanded from supplier,but noticed slight variation(.01") total. First was very snug,second box was a not a good friction fit, but had glue gap set at .004" as that popped up as a default and I went with it. First box had .001" glue fit and liked it much better.

[Burkhardt]

Daniel, somebody pointed out to me you may have right side board in backwards, and I think I see a gap on the bottom too, so see if it needs flipping too. Very good for third cut and quite ambitious too-Good Job!
Gert, any licenses left? Where should we send comments and suggestions? Here- PM-Tailmaker?

I sent out 3 licenses, so 2 are left.

If you think a question or comment is of general interest maybe post it here. If it is specific for your machine or application, just PM or send email to info@tailmaker.net

[scottp55]

G., The code generated does NOT have a spindle start command for the Shopbot Desktop with spindle. The only way I made it work was by inserting (copy/paste) a factory file header into the first line of your .tap and then saved as an .sbp to distinguish between the 2 files.
IF PEOPLE COULD LOOK at it for me and make sure everything is correct I'd really appreciate it as I know nothing about this stuff! I just know it worked after a dozen failed attempts. The spindle does stop at end of file too. Is it only the Desktop with spindle? Bob, same thing happened to Kirk when he tried an hour ago--:( did you modify .tap on your desktop?

[Burkhardt]

The g-code has a "spindle-on" command which is "M3" at the beginning. However, this is only inserted after the first move "up" to the safe distance. I prefer it that way because it prevents the bit from damaging the surface in case somebody uses e.g. paper or direct contact to set the z-zero.

Maybe the Shopbot does not recognize M3 at all or not after it has already moved? I hope the Shopbot gurus here have an opinion about that.

I considered having a Shopbot code output option but that is risky because I have to do it blindly (can not try it out and debug) and so far the g-code import seems to work just fine.

This is how the code starts:

%
( Default File Regenerated by fingmaker! )
G90
G21
G0 Z 2.000 F 1500
M3
.
.
.
.
.

[bob_dodd]

Scott I start and stop my spindle by pushing a button on the VFD , I guess that's why I did not have that issue

I want to thank Gert for the software and lic. I know a lot of work went into this

[tri4sale]

G., The code generated does NOT have a spindle start command for the Shopbot Desktop with spindle. The only way I made it work was by inserting (copy/paste) a factory file header into the first line of your .tap and then saved as an .sbp to distinguish between the 2 files.
IF PEOPLE COULD LOOK at it for me and make sure everything is correct I'd really appreciate it as I know nothing about this stuff! I just know it worked after a dozen failed attempts. The spindle does stop at end of file too. Is it only the Desktop with spindle? Bob, same thing happened to Kirk when he tried an hour ago--:( did you modify .tap on your desktop?

I have a ShopBot with Router that is turned on/off by control box, so I had to manual add the command to the g-code file at the top, when file ended router turned off on its own.

I inserted:

'Turning router ON
SO,1,1
PAUSE 2

at begining of file and it worked from me. I cut/paste that out of a Aspire generated SBP file I created.

[scottp55]

Must be something to do with spindle interlock that turns my spindle power on(Maybe). Could have sworn I tried inserting SO,1,1 into code. But then a SO,1,1 typed into command line, and a C6 and C7 don't work on either one of our Desktops either:confused: A C6 starts spindle for like a 1/10 of a second--barely rotates and does not get up to speed. ODD No Gert it apparently doesn't recognize an M3, But it sounds like our 2 Desktops are not normal.

[srwtlc]

In order for M3/M5 to work, along with other G/M codes, you have to have line numbers. Like N10, N20, N30.....

The ShopBot 'User Guide (http://www.shopbottools.com/ShopBotDocs/files/SBG00142%20User%20Guide%202013%2005%2001.pdf)', has a good section on supported G-code and formatting starting on pg. 50.

[Burkhardt]

In order for M3/M5 to work, along with other G/M codes, you have to have line numbers. Like N10, N20, N30.....

The ShopBot 'User Guide (http://www.shopbottools.com/ShopBotDocs/files/SBG00142%20User%20Guide%202013%2005%2001.pdf)', has a good section on supported G-code and formatting starting on pg. 50.

Thanks Scott, that is very helpful! I can fix that and hope it will work better.
I also noticed in that manual that sending the feed rate command after the G0 is not a good idea because the Shopbot will apply this feed rate then only to the jog commands (non-standard for other CNC controllers). That needs to be fixed, too.

[bob_dodd]

here is the first few lines and the last few lines of a shopbot file , something in the first lines turns output #4 on at or before the SO,1,1 ,, #4 must be on first before spindle turns on , some kind of safety
'----------------------------------------------------------------
'SHOPBOT ROUTER FILE IN INCHES
IF %(25)=1 THEN GOTO UNIT_ERROR 'check to see software is set to standard
SA 'Set program to absolute coordinate mode
SO,1,1 'Turn on router
PAUSE 2 'Give router time to reach cutting rpm
MS,1.3,1.5 'Set move and plunge rate
JZ,1.000000 'Jog Z axis to safe height
J2,0.000000,0.000000 'Return tool to home in x and y
'----------------------------------------------------------------
'----------------------------------------------------------------
JZ,1.000000 'Jog Z axis to safe height
J2,0.000000,0.000000 'Return tool to home in x and y
SO,1,0 'Turn off router
END
'----------------------------------------------------------------
'
UNIT_ERROR:
C#,91 'Run file explaining unit error
END

[ssflyer]

Gert,

One interesting thing about the ShopBot is that you can mix and match SB3 codes and G-Code in the same file, so this may turn out to be pretty trivial.

[srwtlc]

Output #4 is the E-Stop and anytime a file (sbp or gcode) is run, it is automatically turned on.

G, to keep your code simple, but still make one for .sbp output, you could blend g-code and sbp code. In other words, you could post mostly g-code, but instead of g-code feedrates, you could use for example MS,1.5,0.7 which would set the XY move/cut feedrate to 1.5 ips and the Z plunge rate to 0.7 ips for the duration of the file. Jog feedrates would be handled by the user settings in the control software so no need to code G00 feedrates.

[Burkhardt]

Output #4 is the E-Stop and anytime a file (sbp or gcode) is run, it is automatically turned on.

G, to keep your code simple, but still make one for .sbp output, you could blend g-code and sbp code. In other words, you could post mostly g-code, but instead of g-code feedrates, you could use for example MS,1.5,0.7 which would set the XY move/cut feedrate to 1.5 ips and the Z plunge rate to 0.7 ips for the duration of the file. Jog feedrates would be handled by the user settings in the control software so no need to code G00 feedrates.

That would be an idea but then the other CNC machines running e.g. Mach3 may not like the special commands. My machine would throw an error if it reads MS,.......

For now I tried to just conform with the Shopbot g-code requirements from the manual. I changed the first move to a "G1" which should apply the specified feed rate for the rest of the file (for this software there is no need to distinguish between horizontal and plunge feed rate due to the way it machines). And I added "Nxx" numbering words to all non-movement commands like M3. I hope that works better and was easiest to do. See next post for the new beta link.

[Burkhardt]

Well, here is a new beta (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29562014/FingerMakerInstall.zip) with following bugs hopefully fixed and just as hopefully no new bugs added :eek:
- "spindle on" might work now (can not test myself)
- 125% display magnification works on my machine now
- the compiler was upgraded so that the program should not crash anymore on a Win XP machine (I can test that only next week)

If you have already the old beta, just replace the the entire folder. The user guide has also some minor additions. If I sent you the license file, please copy it into the new folder before you delete the old one.

[srwtlc]

I get a 404 error.

What I was getting at was if you wanted to give the option of generic g-code or blended shopbot g-code, where you wouldn't have to change much of your base post processor. What you have planned works too.

[Burkhardt]

O.K., I try again. Please download here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29562014/Fingermaker0_92.exe) for the beta.

The Dropbox public link in the previous post does not work for some reason....

[scottp55]

Thanks G., it works. Will try aircut in a bit and MAY try thicker/taller stock and Finally do a 16 or 19Pat. 19Pat looks very cool!

[scottp55]

G. CODE works:) Even turns spindle on. Just did partial air cut to understand A-B cuts to make a shelf for new sanding station 16X10 deep. had to joint boards to butt together on the centerline. I'm supposed to be doing REAL work, but this is more fun-for about 2 seconds I considered fingerjointing the supports---and then my brain started smoking:) Pat19 with 1/8"

[srwtlc]

Been playing with this a little and have a few questions. For decorative purposes, it would be nice to be able to have what would be the front or A piece in the attached image, have fingers of the set margin, top and bottom instead of only top.

If you don't remember to select a job type, you get an error.

It might be worth mentioning in the guide (maybe it was further up the post and I missed it), that it will cut well into the spoilboard to make up for the ball nose radius.

It looks like grooves for top/bottom are cut 2X the width entered and the top groove doesn't respect the groove distance.

Trying to understand max cut step. It seems to affect how far it will overcut/undercut to the edge of the board along with depth of cut steps. It seems to need to be set tool radius in order to draw/toolpath the top and bottom to the edge. In the attached image you can see that the line is short of the top/bottom edge.

Not at my machine today, so I can't cut any parts. :(

[scottp55]

Gert, Spindle starts but can you introduce a pause immediately afterwards to let the spindle speed up(or if there is a pause make it longer please)?. Did a 14 inch pat19 today in A-B mode and starting at 0,0, it was a close run thing whether spindle would reach speed before it touched wood. Barely.

[srwtlc]

Scott, a g-code pause is supposed to work, but I couldn't get it to on my machine with the latest version. It's possible it did at some time, but is maybe broken now. As a test, you could try it by editing your file and putting G04 P3 on the next line after the M3 (don't forget to number the line first though like Gert did). If that doesn't work, all you have to do is put PAUSE 3 on the line after the M3 and there's no need to number the line.

Just a simple quick edit in any text editor and it would look like this...

N10 M3
N20 G04 P3

Or...

N10 M3
PAUSE 3

[scottp55]

Thanks Scott, Will try both in air cuts. Could I also insert a
C6
Pause 2
like on my TMI header I was inserting?
Not sure how much use I'll be to G. because I know so little about code, unless it's to make it "IDJIT" proof :) Glad you jumped in!
Beta's remind me of that quote "Past Imperfect, Present Tense"
I've been making my slots with a VCP file because I want 90 degree sides and want to cut out with my .25down with tabs, so hadn't noticed any slot problems. Did glue one corner with Bessey corner clamps, and it may be square, but it pulled the joint apart a 1/16. I think I'll go back to assembling all and using K's after this one. It WAS perfectly tight using .001" glue gap. Also making my protrusion .02" so I can sand flat and get rid of all possible glue for an oil finish.
Gert, Do you already have a cut through the diameter of the bit inserted in the program, If so that's why I'm cutting so deep(I'm adding on to yours).

[scottp55]

Couple of pics of first box. Shame the clamps pulled it apart.

[srwtlc]

Could I also insert a
C6
Pause 2Sure can.

So, is that the one you called 19pat? Cool! That's another example where it would look nice to have the top and bottom edge be the same.

[scottp55]

No Scott, that one was a "SwitchSides""drawer". Here's yesterdays 19pat A-B cut for a shelf. Was going to post after cutout, but control computer is throwing a hissy-fit. Going to swap keyboards as that was mucked up yesterday.

[scottp55]

You are NOT to notice I should have done B-A or labeled my boards different. It doesn't matter in this case, BUT I guess maybe I should read the instructions better:)

[Burkhardt]

I was out the last 2 days but notice some more tests..I hope you guys are having fun with it. As for the questions that came up in the meantime:

- I believe I mentioned the cut depth somewhere but it is a good idea to make it very clear so that users don't ruin their spoil board. I found it most convenient to use vacuum pods smaller than the work piece so that the actual cut is hanging free. I will also try adding tabs to help cutting from sheet good.

- I can try adding the g-code pause but if the shopbot ignores it it won't be any good. I had another thought....How if I parse the comment text (normally just for general purpose text) and for every piece of text within parentheses I just paste that piece as a line at the beginning of the g-code. Then you can put any special shopbot code in that you need. Would that be useful?

- I need to re-check the groove function. It worked at some point but maybe I messed it up later. For that matter, if the "rabbet" is chosen, the groove is supposed to go to the edge

- When did the job type error happen? Normally when there is a default file, one of the job types should already be selected. I need to check that.

- good clamping is indeed essential. Lately I used miter frame clamps connected with threaded rods. They are O.K. but I am still looking for something better.

- I am not sure how that is meant with top and bottom margin the same. That can easily be selected because the top value in the list defines to top section, the last one defines the botton section and the values in between should match the number of fingers per pattern. Example: if you have 7 fingers per pattern, should should have 9 values in the list from top to bottom. The randomizer function sometimes makes the last value zero or creates other oddities. I would consider it only as a starting point for manual refinement.

- Scott P. wrote me about differences in fuzziness between A and B. That is likely but depends on the wood and the bit. It did not bother me too much so far but I will see if I can change the bulk removal strokes for both sides of the joint to conventional milling. But that is something for the future. First I need to fix the real bad bugs.

[scottp55]

This is what I meant by a bad case of the "Fuzzies" For once I wasn't exaggerating. Only on this A-B joint, all others were clean. Excuse the 1'st grade scrawl, writing with a mouse in a hurry.

[ssflyer]

You guys are having way too much fun with this! :D
Thanks so much, Gert! Now I just have to go out and cut some! I wish my shop was air conditioned - 105 here right now!

[Burkhardt]

This is what I meant by a bad case of the "Fuzzies" For once I wasn't exaggerating. Only on this A-B joint, all others were clean. Excuse the 1'st grade scrawl, writing with a mouse in a hurry.

Oooh...I believe you are machining the joint across the grain (if I can see that right)? I would not recommend that. It is of course technically possible (and maybe O.K. for purely decorative joints) but I would consider it questionable wood working practice. There are no wood fibers to strengthen the fingers and the joint will be very weak. You could just as well glue the 2 pieces together with a smooth surface joint. I have not tried it for that reason and can imagine it leaves a lot of fuzz on one side.

[scottp55]

Cherry A-B shelf with pockets for 5X5" support and second shelf and 1/2" shaker pegs. Pat19 option. The gaps seen every 5'th finger are NOT G's fault! I wanted to use a decent bit and all I had was a 1/4 shank Onsrud 1/8. I carefully measured:) bit, looked at the settings and surfaced my wood to .72".
Every 5'th finger is a max cut depth, and that's the swage of my bit carefully burnished into the finger. OOPS!!
Who knew that SB3 preview has min and MAX #'s :rolleyes:
I noticed on the first one a little, but it went away! Until the next time!!
Stopped and checked and it was marginal and no other decent bit available the same exact diameter, so went with it and cringed all the way and because of having to get rid of the Fuzzies, had to listen to it twice:)
Recognize the piece I'm using for a center support Gert? I knew I'd use it for something.

[scottp55]

Oh! Ran 220G on a block across end grain of fingers. First time I ever made a joint where the wood was so thin it vibrated and sang:)

[scottp55]

Boards aligned the same.

[scottp55]

It's only going to hold sanding accessories, mask and ear protectors, so wasn't concerned about strength, Just wanted to try out a fancier one:)

[srwtlc]

When did the job type error happen?

It happened when I chose to generate code and didn't select a job type. Upon first launch, there was no default job type selected and I may also have saved as default without having one selected either. Just intended to save default machine settings and not a job type.


How if I parse the comment text (normally just for general purpose text) and for every piece of text within parentheses I just paste that piece as a line at the beginning of the g-code. Then you can put any special shopbot code in that you need. Would that be useful?

Give an example of what you're thinking. Not sure I'm following.


I am not sure how that is meant with top and bottom margin the same.

I'll have to take a closer look at that. Everything I tried didn't give a mirror image of the top fingers.

[Burkhardt]

It happened when I chose to generate code and didn't select a job type. Upon first launch, there was no default job type selected and I may also have saved as default without having one selected either. Just intended to save default machine settings and not a job type.

I'll fix that. Not sure under which circumstance it will not set any of the job types but if it does it will try to close a g-code file that has not been opened. Thanks for the tip!


Give an example of what you're thinking. Not sure I'm following. I need to try it out. I will post when that is implemented.




I'll have to take a closer look at that. Everything I tried didn't give a mirror image of the top fingers.

Have a look at the attached pics. The top and bottom are perfectly symmetrical. That what you meant?

[srwtlc]

I guess I'm getting totally confused with the relationship between fingers per pattern, total fingers, and the two finger length columns. :(

In your comment box, if you could 'enter' for another line, then we could just save defaults to have....

C6 or SO,1,1
PAUSE 3

They have to be on separate lines.

[Burkhardt]

I guess I'm getting totally confused with the relationship between fingers per pattern, total fingers, and the two finger length columns. :( .....
Sorry about that. I need to find a better way to explain the concept, maybe with a sketch. In short:

A "pattern" is a set of minimum 2 and maximum 19 fingers of identical width that may repeat in a joint. For narrow boards and many fingers in a pattern this pattern may be present only once but if you have only a few fingers in a pattern it will repeated as often as needed to cover the necessary joint width.

The "no top" and "no bottom" margins are actually also fingers, but they don't repeat and can have different width. The top margin is the very top number in the finger list and the bottom margin is the last one. There must be as many numbers in between those two as the number of "fingers per pattern". I will see if I can arrange the list to read easier and maybe even grey out the boxes that are not needed. Please keep in mind, the 2 columns don't mean anything. They are just there to save vertical space on the screen. The only thing that counts is the vertical sequence. But I can see that is confusing.

Calculation inside the software is as follows:

- the top and bottom margin are subtracted from the board width
- the remaining joint length is divided by the "fingers per pattern" times the minimum finger width. That gives the max. number of pattern repetitions that can be used.
- the actual finger width is then increased so that the joint is evenly filled with fingers

There are probably 15 or 20 additional check calculations to assure the joint is actually feasible and I still can not catch all impossibilities.


In your comment box, if you could 'enter' for another line, then we could just save defaults to have....

C6 or SO,1,1
PAUSE 3

They have to be on separate lines.

That is a possibility. Actually I thought to do it similar like that: (C6) (PAUSE3)

[srwtlc]

That could be done, as long as they are placed on separate lines and then the SB user needs to remember to open the file in an editor and take out the ( ).

One thing to keep in mind here (speaking to SB users now), is that if you rely on C6 to turn on your spindle, it may not work reliably. This is because the C6 command as opposed to SO,1,# (# being the output # your spindle is on) relies on the variable &tool to be present in SB3 memory and if it isn't, the spindle will not turn on. The way this variable gets into memory is by way of a file that has been post processed from a TC (tool change) post processor and if you haven't run such a file before running something like a file from G's fingermaker or others that you may have added a C6 to turn on the spindle, it won't work. This is why it would be best to use SO,1,1 or whatever output your spindle/router is on.

[Burkhardt]

I changed it already for the next beta version (still needs some other fixes). But it will use a comment like in the first picture to create code like in the second picture. I suppose (hope) that using the M3 command after the spindle is already turned on with SO,1,1 does not confuse the controller.

[srwtlc]

That would work fine. Also, the M3 afterwards is fine, it just passes since it's already been turned on.

I ran a simple box test late today in some scrap red oak with a 0.375" ballnose (the only straight one I had). I thought I'd try leaving the material thicker and plane it down (one side) to finished thickness of 0.625 after cutting. I figured that with a 0.375" ballnose the overcut in depth would be approximately the radius of the bit + the overcut allowance so I started with my material at 0.8125" thick. I didn't check the file to see what the max depth was and noticed that instead of it cutting to a depth of material + radius, it was cutting material + diameter. I thought, lets try fooling it and give it a negative overcut for the next piece. I then noticed, that that also limits finger length and it wasn't cutting past the finger tips far enough. So, after cutting and planing, I had to do a little chisel work, but got it together. I had a little problem due to the fact that its past time for surfacing my table. ;) I just pressed it together without glue for the pic.

I tried to shorten that larger middle finger/space, but only half if it would shortened as in some of your other examples where you have stepped fingers.

Sorry for the low quality phone pic.

[scottp55]

Nice Scott, Thanks for fooling around with the overcut to see what happens. Would you mind posting a pic of the screen with your settings when you get a chance? Be interested to see protrusion.glue gap, and overcut #'s . 3/8" doesn't give you many options. I can see someone buying small,long CEL BN's in the near future:)
G. , Any licenses left after Scott W's?

[Burkhardt]

....I didn't check the file to see what the max depth was and noticed that instead of it cutting to a depth of material + radius, it was cutting material + diameter. ......
Oh my, good find. That is a really ugly bug and I am not sure when that hatched. But the maximum depth should indeed be one bit radius plus overcut under the bottom surface of the boards. I never noticed because I usually have smaller bit and use a vac pod. Got to fix that immediately but there are several places in the program affected.

I have sent out 3 free licenses so far and if Scott W. cares to have one: please PM your email and mailing address.

[srwtlc]

Yeah, unless you have some large panels/sides, a 0.375 ballnose doesn't leave you with a lot of variation choices. It did allow me to play around with it a bit and see that the finger length columns start on the right and zig-zag back and forth for order. I was trying to get the large middle finger to be shorter, but could only get half of it to do so, giving me the stepped finger, but with the jagged intersection, so I just went with it full length. Settings I used are attached. It fit pretty tight, so I could have allowed more for glue gap. The attempted negative overcut was -0.197.

G,
Yeah, I found that the finger length part of the cut is one thing affected by that and had to do a little chisel work to clean up the radius left on the end of the fingers. What do you think about doing a small zig-zag or smooth ramp for the start of the end cuts instead of three full depth plunges? It might be better for keeping the tool a bit cooler. Although this was more pronounced in my case as I was using 0.8125" material along with 0.375"+ more due to overcut. Just made it a bit more interesting as it drove the 4 flute 0.375" bit all the way down in one 90ipm shot! ;) PM sent.

[scottp55]

Scott, I Like your settings, very similar to what I settled on(may work my way up to G's speeds and go 0" on glue gap though as I'm touching fingers with either 400G abralon or 120G 1" 3M RadialBristleDisks to eliminate tearout and allow a easy dry fit on "baby fingers" prior to gluing). Yep, That initial plunge is NOT something I would ever normally do, and it does kind of take you by surprise you--- doesn't it:) Aggravated by your material thickness and bit, but really points it out! At minimum should be peck drilled.
Would be nice to have fingerjoint cauls for a web clamp, but each would have to be custom:). Finally just used Bessy K's with a spacer and joints are super tight with uniform squeeze out. Great Job G. ! Using TB III, but realize I've got to get faster or have 30 minutes open time. Picked up TB PU yesterday, but seem to remember I got discoloration similar to Gorilla glue on some woods. Is there another glue with longer open time similar to TBIII that I'm not aware of?

[Burkhardt]

..... Yep, That initial plunge is NOT something I would ever normally do, and it does kind of take you by surprise you--- doesn't it:) .....

Got to try that again, too.

For whole boards it should never plunge (i.e. drill) to full depth because it cuts the ends and sides first in depth layers. If the side cut is disabled, that may however happen when boards are used that are wider than specified. Then the cross-cut will start both ends with 3 or 4 strokes of a vertical full depth "sawing" motion under the assumption that this begins outside the board in free air and in small steps. The reason for this unusual move is my attempt to minimize side tear-out when the bit breaks through the surface. Such tear-out (splintering) can ruin the entire project.

But if that causes more trouble than is worth I can just as well remove it and do the cross-cut in a more standard fashion or have a separate check box for it.

[Roy Harding]

... Using TB III, but realize I've got to get faster or have 30 minutes open time. Picked up TB PU yesterday, but seem to remember I got discoloration similar to Gorilla glue on some woods. Is there another glue with longer open time similar to TBIII that I'm not aware of?

I've been using Lee Valley's 2002 GF Cabinet Maker's glue for years. )http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=45104&cat=1,110,42965,45104)

I make dove-tailed blanket chests on a regular basis - for glue-up, I cut the 2002 GF glue with water (about 2:1 glue:water) to give me a longer open time. I've never had a failure. (Clamping time is also extended, don't forget that part)

I'm not sure that I'd thin the glue on anything other than a dovetail or finger joint - the mechanical properties of those two joints ensure an excellent bond even with thinned glue.

[Burkhardt]

O.K., here we go again. New Beta is published. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29562014/FingerMakerInstall.zip)

Numerous bug fixes:
- cutting too deep into the spoilboard
- initial plunge for cross-cut is now a "peck drill" procedure (in case the cross-cut ends are unintentionally over wood).
- re-arranged the finger length table to make more intuitive
- eliminated the "fingers per pattern" input. It is now automatically counted from the finger table
- corrected re-loading of checkboxes and radiobuttons
- tweaked the sample configuration files
- corrected slot location for drawer bottom slots
- Used new compiler that hopefully avoids the program crash on Win XP machines (still needs to be checked).
- improved the finger length feasibility check.
- amended the user guide

[scottp55]

Roy, Thanks for tip, will have to try.
G. , You've been BUSY :) Thanks!

[scottp55]

Anybody get an updated user Guide? Not seeing ANY .pdf or .txt besides my license, and it asks me to look at it. G. ? Am I just not awake enough to see it:confused:

[bob_dodd]

G

Thank for the fixes , will give it a try today , previous version and newest version running on windows XP Thanks

[scottp55]

Never Mind:) Got .pdf when extracted with 7-Zip.

[scottp55]

Spindle start is good with pause, feel more comfortable with "pecking action". Much less spoilboard cut . Kept changing my bit to .122" from .1215" but NBD just annoying. No problems noted on A-B cut with fingers parallel with grain. 1/8" Onsrud 90 IPM, 50% bit diameter cut, 15K. Good clean cut. Thanks G.!:)

[Burkhardt]

Spindle start is good with pause, feel more comfortable with "pecking action". Much less spoilboard cut . Kept changing my bit to .122" from .1215" but NBD just annoying. No problems noted on A-B cut with fingers parallel with grain. 1/8" Onsrud 90 IPM, 50% bit diameter cut, 15K. Good clean cut. Thanks G.!:)

Good to hear it is working better for you! I forgot to list the new function mentioned in an earlier post of taking comment text in {....} parentheses and inserting as line into the g-code file. Is that what you have been doing for the spindle start?

I am not sure why you need to use a smaller diameter for the bit. Is it actually that diameter or do you get otherwise a too tight fit? And what means "NBD"? If you rather want to keep the nominal bit diameter you can just as well use a positive "Glue Gap" number which has pretty much the same effect as entering a smaller diameter.

[scottp55]

I was inserting a whole header text from a typical cut file from Shopbot(Lousy at code). This time I did not do anything at all to the generated file and simply ran an aircut to double check. I just try to be as precise as possible with the bit diameter to make the Vectric preview as accurate as possible. Some of our files and protos run up to 19 tool changes for a Graphic demo board and almost all bits are undersized so complex graphics get turned into hash. No Big Deal. It really doesn't matter in this case just a habit as using nominal caused so many headaches. Forgetting the .005" flat on an undersized vbit and then putting a chamfer on an edge in a Celtic pattern can cause hours of sanding and it never looks as good. Very nice program Gert.:)

[srwtlc]

Just a quick look at the latest version (not at machine today, so no test cuts). I noticed that 'Save as default' isn't saving the chosen default machine, material, and box dimension values to defaults.

I tried the additional parameters with 'Default File Regenerated by Fingermaker! {SO,1,1} {PAUSE 3}' and the saved gcode places it like this...

( Default File Regenerated by Fingermaker! {SO,1,1) {PAUSE 3} )
SO,1,1) PAUSE 3

When it needs to be like this...

( Default File Regenerated by Fingermaker! {SO,1,1) {PAUSE 3} )
SO,1,1
PAUSE 3

The trailing ')' can't be there after the SO,1,1 either.

If saving the added parameters to defaults, all that gets saved and reloaded is 'Default File Regenerated by Fingermaker! {SO'.

Gotta go, more later. ;)

[Burkhardt]

Thanks for the feedback!

I tried it and on my machine it seems to work. That is, if I change something and "Save as Default" it will over-write the existing default.fin file and when you close and re-open the program it does load the modified file. But I will keep trying if I can reproduce the behavior.

As for the embedded code, this is because your comment already has the round parenthesis character ending the SO,1,1 code fragment (see the complete comment reproduced in the 2nd g-code line). The software does not know then it must end the line. Each insertable code line must be started and ended with CURLY bracket characters. I am pretty sure if you change the comment accordingly it will work.

[srwtlc]

I don't know what I did (the above may have been a typo), but after looking at the default.fin file, and also deleting/regenerating, the SO and PAUSE seems to work every time now, but saving of that and the other values as defaults still doesn't.

With the attached settings image, the subsequent saved defaults are as attached. Upon loading, you get what those setting are. On a subsequent save without changing the comment line, it get cut off and looks like this...comment,Default File Regenerated by Fingermaker!{SO,0

Just a question here, in the attached image, the bottom margin is set the same as the top at 0.375, but the bottom is larger than that. I guess my thought was that it would force the top and bottom to be the same and adjust the rest accordingly.

Is 'Fingers per pattern' now set only by the program?

[Burkhardt]

Just a question here, in the attached image, the bottom margin is set the same as the top at 0.375, but the bottom is larger than that. I guess my thought was that it would force the top and bottom to be the same and adjust the rest accordingly.

Is 'Fingers per pattern' now set only by the program?

I wanted to eliminate this redundant information. The "fingers per pattern" is now counted from the finger length list. That is, if you specify e.g. 7 finger lengths it will assume 5 "fingers per pattern" plus the top and bottom margin.

The unsymmetrical top and bottom in your example is a principal thing. The bottom is wider because the last finger of the pattern is already there and added to the bottom margin width. There are 3 ways around this:
- move the bottom margin to the other board (change sign of the finger length number). Then they are the same width but obviously on different sides which may not be desirable.
- specify an odd number of finger lengths in the table. That works in any case but then the repeated pattern itself may become unsymmetrical.
- best would be to reduce the bottom margin width by the actual finger width. You may have to do tweak this 2-3 times because the actual finger width is re-calculated every time you change the bottom margin.

I the future I may add a function to optimize this automatically for even finger numbers.

[Burkhardt]

.....With the attached settings image, the subsequent saved defaults are as attached. Upon loading, you get what those setting are. On a subsequent save without changing the comment line, it get cut off and looks like this...comment,Default File Regenerated by Fingermaker!{SO,0......

Right now I am using a simple single line text box for the comment. You may not see the entire text (it has no scroll bars) but it is there. You can actually go through it with the cursor. I tried an text edit box but that was not much better (hey, I never claimed to be a software professional). I am looking into a more convenient way for text entry but for now I suggest to delete the unnecessary text to keep it short.

[srwtlc]

Thanks for the further info G. I was just trying to keep your 'FingerMaker' recognition in there. ;)

I'll throw one more at you and then leave you alone for the rest of the week, promise (got a full one coming up). ;) I've gotten the attached error a couple of times now and have had to delete the default file to get out of it. Seems to come after saving some default settings, loading some other settings, and then trying to load the default again. Maybe it has something to do with my not being able to save default values.

[Burkhardt]

I am beginning to wonder if you have something write protected. The div/0 error likely happens because it is not actually loading values and if it tries to do a calculation with "zero" value it just errors out. Pretty much all the values in the screen shot are zero. A bit difficult to diagnose from here.

I suggest, deleting the folder (save the license file, though) and extracting it fresh from the latest zip install file (0.94) into a location that is for sure not write protected and try again. Maybe I need to test if saving a settings file did actually do what it should.

[scottp55]

G. , I had saved a few fin files I liked from first 2 versions. Tried to use a pat19 from last version as a default file in current version and got that fault Scott W got and OK shut program down. Should I delete my folder with old fin files and just not use them with new version? Can't follow half what you and Scott are doing:)

[Burkhardt]

G. , I had saved a few fin files I liked from first 2 versions. Tried to use a pat19 from last version as a default file in current version and got that fault Scott W got and OK shut program down. Should I delete my folder with old fin files and just not use them with new version? Can't follow half what you and Scott are doing:)

Hmm, may be an idea to try removing everything but the license and installing from scratch. I still don't know why that error happens. There is only a minor change in the .fin file structure and I tried to make it backward compatible. Actually I can open fin files that I saved in April with the latest published software.

[scottp55]

OK G. Will do. Good to know about old fin files. Thanks

[Joe Porter]

Here is my try at the Finger Joint Software. Let's see if this comes thru...Thanks for looking...joe

[scottp55]

Joe, I'll be darned if that doesn't look like a tight fingerbox!:) Looks like you 2 sided it and Bandsawed it free? Hope he still has a license-That deserves it. What did you think of it?

[Joe Porter]

Thanks, Scott. Yes, the joints fit perfectly. I haven't even glued and clamped them yet. I had a piece of 2x4 laying around that I had cleaned up for another project and I used that so I could just cut so deep on both sides and then sawed them free on the table saw. I used the Box/Drawer option and the out come was good for my first try...joe

[scottp55]

Only noticed table saw marks AFTER you mentioned it. G. must be away. Hope there was one left. Lot more versatile in full addition. Looking forward to playing with when I free up some time.

[Burkhardt]

Only noticed table saw marks AFTER you mentioned it. G. must be away. Hope there was one left. Lot more versatile in full addition. Looking forward to playing with when I free up some time.

No, I am still here :)

For that matter I will indeed be out for the next 2 weeks traveling with limited Internet access (not to mention no CNC access....)

I would be happy to give Joe the last of the 5 free licenses. Just PM your email and mailing address to me today and I can still do that before I leave.

That is an interesting trick slicing the boards from a thicker piece.

[Joe Porter]

Thanks, Gert, I appreciate it.. Will e-mail you now, or will try..my e-mail skills are not always as good as planned...joe

[scottp55]

Congrats Joe!:)

[Joe Porter]

Yep! Thanks, Scott. G. sent the license as promised. I have his program about making dovetails and am planning on using it soon to make some magazine cases. It is a little more complex a program because you have to make a 15 deg. jig to mount your work piece in, but when I get it done, I will post the results...maybe...joe

[scottp55]

Yeah Joe,I looked at Tailmaker way back when, but it was beyond me then, and with the Desktop Z , I decided to pass. Looking again now that I know a little more--I can think of tons of interesting stuff to make. Have fun playing--show pics.:)

[Burkhardt]

Here you go G. :) (For your new cabinet saw)


Nah...I am immune to that ;)

While I can still fit the drum sander in my garage (provided I get rid of the pressure washer and a ladder), the only place to put a useful table saw would be in the living room or on the lawn. Both are not really good options although I would love to have one. Maybe I should try some nesting software to better pack the available space. Most of the equipment has to be on casters anyway, to drag out into the driveway to operate. I need to move somewhere else to have a real shop in a few years.

O.K., I lied. I found I can still fit a table saw and bought a Ridgid 4512. I think pound by pound this was the best power tool deal I had for a while. With steel housing, belt drive induction motor and cast iron table 270 pounds for $540. Very quiet (when not cutting) and no vibration. Foot operated casters included. This is surely not big or powerful enough for a pro shop but a very nice addition for me.

However, considering the latest table saw safety discussions I think using it for slicing off small box lids would be very risky. Any kickback would send the box flying and have fingers in the vicinity of the blade.

But I found a 3.375" diameter saw blade (for battery finish saw) with 1/16" kerf and mounted it on an arbor with 1/2" shank. The arbor had to be slightly modified on the lathe to take the 15mm hole of the blade but now I have a nice tool that I can use on the spindle without risking my fingers and a slotting depth up to 1.25". The blade is specified up to 10,000rpm.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bt24S2rUeU4/U83Hn0q2b0I/AAAAAAAAE8I/kFvLvU4QJc0/w1086-h853-no/DSC02601.JPG

[Joe Porter]

That reminds me of a James Bond movie...joe

[scottp55]

$2 a pound, Cheaper than hamburger:)
Fancy little thin kerf slot cutter you made there G. :rolleyes:

[Burkhardt]

I have had the finger joint software now out for Beta Test since May. I got some good information back and fixed a few bugs but have not heard much lately. In the meantime I did add the option to specify an onion skin at the joint side of a board.

I considering to wrap up the test, review the user guide and finalize the package. So....if anybody still has feedback or knows about problems please let me know.

Thanks!! I highly appreciate the support I got here.

[scottp55]

Hi G., Haven't used it at all since the initial push and was waiting for the 22mm LOC 1/8" chinese to come in (3.5 weeks!). Had several people ask about custom boxes in 3/4" exotics, but didn't have time to pursue. What they really liked was the patterns in the thinner fingers! Need to make up some demos to finish up now that our crunch is off.
Any idea how much the full package will go for? We need to buy one for Kirk's Desktop so we can both do them. I did have a couple of requests from Vectric forum asking what software I was using to flat cut the fingerjoints and I steered them to this thread, so maybe another thread could be started when you get the final package together as well as the sample package so people can try the simple joints with the thickness options limited just so they can try it? This thread is getting just a tad long:)
Maybe a few of the other guys have continued to play with it and have some stuff to show and comments to make before you finalize it? Thank you very much for the program as Desktoppers never had much of an option before, never mind some of the more custom designs!:)

[srwtlc]

Hi G, I as well haven't had time to get back to it and give it another go. Got a new small round nose waiting for me to give it another try.

[scottp55]

Hi Gert, Got a guy(Dan) in Northern Maine I just started talking to who has a homebuilt CNC with about a Desktops size. He was interested in some of your boxes after he saw a couple of pics, so I sent him the link to this thread, but he couldn't quite wrap his head around it so i sent him the .taps from my first BETA box and he's very interested now, but asked if you had any tutorials.
Would it be OK if I created fancy one with the full version and sent him JUST the .Tap files so can try one in 1/2" ply and then make one in self-milled(yes he does cut his own lumber on his own sawmill-but says it's getting too hard for him) crotch cherry for his wife. He thinks he could really get into the fancy stuff as he's fully retired and has a full basement shop. He's hyped and may be your first customer once he "Gets" it:)
Is it OK on a full version .Tap file? (didn't think a free BETA .Tap would bother you---Sorry if I was wrong)
Thanks,
scott

p.s. Will you be doing a video like Tailmaker? Maybe a VERY brief walkthrough vid for Dummies:)

[Burkhardt]

Hey Scott, thank you for proselyting...

I am not dogmatic about the use of the software output. Actually since you have the full version please feel free to do whatever you want with the output files as long as you don't try to put your own copyright on it and refer to the source when you give away (or even sell) the output.

The whole software selling business is anyway not going to make me rich but helps me to keep control of the distribution and generate some modest income to finance my future retirement software business (or write off the losses in the meantime....)

[scottp55]

Thanks G.!:)

[scottp55]

G., Dan says "Thanks tell G. I will buy if I can figure it out:) "
I looked back a ways but still didn't see any update on tabs--Did I miss it. I know you have Vac, but Dan and I don't. I got around by doing cut out with VCarvePro, but Dan is using Bobcad and a trial version of VCP.
Also I made a .26" groove for his floor, but if he wanted to make his floor out of the same .5" stock--Wouldn't it cut all the way through his workpiece? Anyway to separate the width/depth of groove/rabbet?
Thanks G.

[scottp55]

Hopefully larger image.

[Burkhardt]

Hello Scott,

not sure if the screenshot shows your whole screen. There are a few boxes missing on the bottom of the program window that allow for specification of groove depth and distance from edge.

My program has an issue when the screen resolution is too low to show the whole window. The software development tool that I am using does not scroll the window properly on small screens.

As for the tabs....that gets a bit complicated because the tabs would have to be positioned relative to the finger position. As an alternative I added the option of leaving an onion skin. You may want to try the latest download of the installation file (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29562014/FingerMakerInstall.zip). I called it optimistically version 1.00 but that does not mean anything :eek:

[scottp55]

Hi G. , Laptop was used on all this. I'm running version .94.
Onion skin should work for Dan and us. Will download and try on large monitor.
He's doing 2, 1 wife-1 daughter from cherry and butternut crotch for Xmas. Ballerina music boxes, because his daughter teaches in the Rockies somewhere.
He just bought a 30 VBit for the TailMaker demo :)
Hope I don't muck it up!
Thanks,
scott
Doing a Font demo board for an Amish gentleman for possible VInlay and mixed a little extra oil to do that very first walnut/cherry box. Will post those and Dan's pics, but still not close to some of our stuff.

[Burkhardt]

Great! One recommendation...before you start butchering expensive lumber, make sure your settings work with cheap stuff. Well, that is at least my own "lesson learned".

[scottp55]

G. , 1 coat oil on very first box cut with the first Beta. The joints would have been perfect except I used the wrong clamp and it pulled it apart and the bit had a shoulder on it which "rubbed".
Thanks:)
scott

[myxpykalix]

looks great scott!:D

[scottp55]

Thanks Jack:)
Gert--any more on 6 sided cubes? Or did I miss it? Rereading new .pdf for Dan's box-20 IPM OUCH! have to play with settings and guess. Glad I've got a 'Bot:)

[POPS 64]

Nice job on the box Scott looks great , the buttons are looking pretty cool to .
Gert just hooked me up with the program going to play with it this week in between a working on a toy box ordered . Jeff:)

[Steve Wonser]

Great looking box! I'm continually amazed at all of the cool things the ShopBot can do. I can't wait to get to that point in my skills.

[Burkhardt]

Thanks Jack:)
Gert--any more on 6 sided cubes? Or did I miss it? Rereading new .pdf for Dan's box-20 IPM OUCH! have to play with settings and guess. Glad I've got a 'Bot:)

Box looks great!

The beta version for the 6-sided cubes (or 5-sided open boxes) is not yet published. I used a prototype for my test piece. Right now I am a bit stuck with fixing the before mentioned angle error for very short or zero length fingers (aka miter cuts). The most significant change with the latest published beta was the addition of the onion skin option.

I am a bit confused about Dan's box and 20 ipm. What was that about? For this program I would not go down to 20 ipm in any case. That would burn up the bit too soon. Even with 1/8" bits I could do 80 or 100 ipm depending on the wood hardness.

[Burkhardt]

Yay!!! I finally fixed some persistent bugs that prevented fully mitered ends and finger sections and that drove me crazy over the last 2 months. I also improved the internal beveling. While not visible it offended me that there were internal voids. I am sure there will be more bugs but the software should be able to do pretty much all normal configurations (fingers crossed).

I still need to update the manual but otherwise I believe I can release it as a product within a week. Whew....

Below another box I am working on with the latest version to show half blind joints. It is glued and clamped right now.

In this case half of the half blind joints are on one side and the other half on the other side if that makes any sense. All of that is done without any CAD or CAM software. Only specification of the machine parameters and the box and board dimensions and features.

I am quite happy and relieved that I got it that far but this was for sure the most complicated piece of software that I have developed.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-b8eISIztDSU/VBkRX9YqW9I/AAAAAAAAFTM/JbMjUFO8Zxk/w1029-h808-no/MapleScreen.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-tJuuP6h0pcU/VBkQSw5h0fI/AAAAAAAAFTE/rmb2zpNIhgA/w922-h853-no/DSC02669.JPG

[myxpykalix]

Looks like you got it worked out pretty good. Because i don't recall reading this info please refresh my memory...What orientation is this cut at? Laying flat or on it's side? What is the layout...both parts together?:confused:
What is the cutting time? Cost?
good work G

[scottp55]

Congratulations Gert!!
Jack, Boards are cut flat on table, in either X or Y orientation depending on how you've set it up. Board does not have to be dimensioned except for thickness(critical) as program will cut all 4 sides for you if you want. You can just lay 1 S2S board down if you want, and let the grain wrap around the box and cut all 4 sides, OR cut out of contrasting woods individually. Time is dependent on diameter of bit used and wood thickness. BNose is basically doing a 3D move so stepover and how big a ridge(facet) can be set depending on how perfect you want it. X,Y,Z move speeds are set identically and cutter is using full CEL in very small passes(except for the first). I forget my times on this little .25" stock box. Hope this helps.
Neat program

[myxpykalix]

thanks Scott.....btw...don't you have a "real" job?? seems like you get to play all day on your bot:eek::D:rolleyes:

[scottp55]

Cute Jack:)
My job IS to play with proto's of Dad's ideas and to come up with a product and a file I can ship to Northern Desktop so THEY can create jobs for OTHERS:)
Not a bad job at all if you can get it!
Definition of the perfect job I like is "Something you would gladly do for Nothing"
Which is pretty good as over the past year I've had my pay tripled 4 times and that's STILL what I'm making----Nothing! :)

G. , On a serious note, still running TailMaker 1.0. When there are upgrades, will the 4 of us with full licenses be notified here? or separately?

[Burkhardt]

......G. , On a serious note, still running TailMaker 1.0. When there are upgrades, will the 4 of us with full licenses be notified here? or separately?

Not sure if you really mean the Tailmaker dovetail program? That is right now published as 1.04 (never mind that the program window shows version 1.03) but nothing has change there for over a year.

I suppose you really mean the Fingermaker box joint program we are talking about here in this thread. The published beta is still 1.0 which I plan to update to the first "official" version 1.2 sometimes over the weekend. I will notify everybody in my address book who was interested or who got a license already.

[Burkhardt]

Looks like you got it worked out pretty good. Because i don't recall reading this info please refresh my memory...What orientation is this cut at? Laying flat or on it's side? What is the layout...both parts together?:confused:
What is the cutting time? Cost?
good work G

Thanks Scott for providing free technical support :D

The cutting time for the sample in the picture above is about 14 minutes per board using a rather fine stepover but including the 4-sided cutout and the rabbets on top and bottom. This is with an 1/8" ball end and 100ipm/1.7ips feed rate. With a 1/4" bit you could go faster and may be able to cut the time in half but it will limit how slim the fingers can get. Since the machine time is only a fraction of the whole box build time with gluing, sanding, finishing and hardware I prefer doing it a little slower and more precise.

[scottp55]

Yup, I MEANT FingerMaker, but was just e-mailing somebody and talking about TailMaker. My mistake. Definitely more coffee:)
Thanks G.

[Bob Eustace]

Gert how does one go about buying Fingermaker?? On small boxes we dont glue normally but use CA. A couple of drops on an assembled box at each joint. It wicks into the gap and makes a mongrel job into a dream (as long as you dont get your fingersz glued!!!). Your efforts with this work is sincerely appreciated.

Bob

[Burkhardt]

Gert how does one go about buying Fingermaker??
For now you can only download the free beta/demo (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29562014/FingerMakerInstall.zip). That will give you a feel if the software does what you want. It does really not have that many limitations and can do the usual drawer and box joints.

I will add the improved software version with a license purchase option for the full functionality to my tailmaker.net web site this weekend. I held off with that so far to fix some bugs that I mentioned in the post yesterday. But I will post a note here on this thread when it is available.



On small boxes we dont glue normally but use CA. A couple of drops on an assembled box at each joint. It wicks into the gap and makes a mongrel job into a dream

I have done that too for the small matchbox size box posted a few pages earlier. I tried it once for a larger box in cherry bot found the CA wicking into the joint made the contact line stand out dark against the surrounding wood. Maybe I should try that again. Lately I have been using Titebond "translucent" (not Titebond 1, 2 or 3) which seems to be quite nice.

[Bob Eustace]

Thanks Gert. On CA the budget boxes were glued up with super glue. With your program we are looking for a method thats more machine intense than using the Incra box joint jig. Its also not real accurate on smaller boxes where there is not much to hold onto. Width wise its a dream . We are excited with your method as the Buddy sure does limit what you can do especially when you look at what Brian does with his flat bed and pneumatics. Sorry the pic is inverted - lets you see the joints better!

Thanks again - Bob in Australia

[myxpykalix]

Bob...very nice boxes:D Did you make those with G's program? You need to show me how you made those....wait...you're on the other side of the world!:eek:

[Bob Eustace]

No nothing clever Jack, just done on Incras iBox jig on the table saw.

http://youtu.be/3QESurntvaE

[scottp55]

Bob and Jack, Think you'll like some of the options it will give you.:)
Should put you in a class with few others.

[myxpykalix]

I have a couple incra or other type micro adjustment jig for making dovetails and finger joints but i haven't used them in years. I guess i'm going to have to dust them off or wait till G gets his program out.
I have so many different tools i no longer use since i got my bot......i need to get them together and sell them but then again i'm a tool collector!:eek:

[myxpykalix]

Scott,
You are one of the more enthusiastic botters unlike me where i have plans for many things but just have gotten so i run out of gas before i can get out to play with my bot. Do you have a picture of that piece you showed with both parts together?

[scottp55]

Know how you feel Jack, Had to sell Leigh 24" dovetail and 20"bandsaw and a Fein Multi a few years ago to make ends meet:(
Got to admit though, it's easier to collect programs than tool--and they don't have to be protected from rust:)
They won't ever replace wood/brass/bronze and good steel though in my shop!

[scottp55]

Woops stomped each other.
This one NOT my proudest moments. G.'s first Beta plunged finger length PLUS tool diameter NOT tool radius(Thanks Scott and G for pointing out and correcting) and I was using starter set 1/8"BN which is 1/4" shank and swage hit and messed up wood a bit- the resultant gaps are NOT normal.
THEN on the pockets at the last minute I decided it would be a great time to dial in a 4F.125" and messed up an offset calculation so the torrefied(black)Ash and the maple shelf didn't fit together. So I shelved it until I got some spare time to make a new black piece. SOOO never got to glue it up.
Here are best pics I could find. AGAIN gaps are my fault!
Know how you feel--After sanding and sealing front door and staining cedar garage doors and getting the trash in and out--- Think it's going to be a button designing day:)

[Bob Eustace]

Jack the BEST tool you ever put me onto is that tape that finds the centres of any board. Fantastic and I use it dozens of times everyday!

[scottp55]

Guys!!! Get back on topic!
Ok, So GIVE!
What tape that finds the center of a board so you can do a FingerMaker Box faster on your Shopbot? :)

[myxpykalix]

Even I don't remember that! I think it was a regular measuring tape but that it had extra marks for mid points
read this
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/02/06/4668283/download-simple-calendar-to-keep.html

[Steve Wonser]

Here is a link to center finding tapes at Lee Valley.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32558&cat=1,43513

[Burkhardt]

That is what I am using for center finding. It still has a geometric flaw and needs a sliding middle bar to prevent tilting but it works good enough (3"-20") and I did not bother so far. But if that is interesting to the general public I can improve it and post the Vcarve files. Does not take more than an hour to make.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gQnNy8HM9a8/VBunx0ecQvI/AAAAAAAAFTc/7hbrd_I_msc/w547-h852-no/DSC02672.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jDMDskQi1O8/VBun0ol38dI/AAAAAAAAFTk/wVSWZYQbwcw/w1597-h804-no/DSC02673.JPG

[Tim Lucas]

Here is a link to Oregon centering rules, they come in different widths and colors :D

http://www.oregonruleco.com/Centering.htm

[scottp55]

Thanks all:)
Interesting how a simple question here gets so much information!
I was going to do the old "board with 2 dowels and a brad at midpoint" for width and regular tape for length :)

[Burkhardt]

My contraption is admittedly over-designed. I made it a while ago to find the center inside a confined space and to be operated vertically.

For a simple center finder on top of a board a pantograph style compass would be sufficient and much simpler. I bet one can buy that somewhere but I have not seen it.

[dmidkiff]

A good way to find the center of a board is a regular tape measure. Run the tape out diagonally across the board to an even number. Half of that number will be your center. This method may not work so easily on a wall but for most needs in the shop it works every time. No special tape or tools needed.
Of course, this is not my idea, I learned this from watching Tommy on Ask This Old House.

[bleeth]

Or you can buy one of those "Fast-cap" center finder tapes and then go nuts trying to remember which drawer you stuck it in!
My issue is how hard it is now to find a decent tape without "dummy" fraction numbers printed all over it without ordering it from some out of town warehouse. I don't know whether the latest crop of "carpenters" is that stupid or the manufacturers just think they are.

[Burkhardt]

I know I am not Macbeth but after more than a year of tinkering and frustration I finally decided that my box joint software is good enough to launch. I just put it on my web site (tailmaker.net) and if anybody is interested please have a look and let me know what you think about it. I would be happy to get feedback about the program (yes, I am sure there are still bugs) and the web site (yes, it is still rough around the edges).

Thanks to all for your patience to put up with my obsessions!

Here my latest demo objects that I made with no specific purpose but I needed some pics for the web site.

This is the glued up and finished box with the split half-blind joints (I posted the pic of the cut boards a few pages up).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-676xsuCuddQ/VB4umuvUbUI/AAAAAAAAFT8/TFXGSnFG504/w1152-h853-no/DSC02681.JPG

This is a test of the limits for unequal thickness boards, joining a 1/4" piece to a 3/4" piece. Works pretty good, but full miter joints to the corner are hard to get accurate.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-69dtl2TCBU8/VB4ukqLd9lI/AAAAAAAAFT0/aHL-xfQaalY/w629-h853-no/DSC02674.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FK4p6n-3Brs/VB4utROz27I/AAAAAAAAFUU/3zYhUGHGmhE/w1101-h853-no/DSC02687.JPG

Test of tabs. Actually rather an onion skin that connects the finger end to the surrounding material:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TcZPDNivpek/VB4uo9XqHjI/AAAAAAAAFUE/8b6eao5wvBM/w1315-h853-no/DSC02683.JPG

[scottp55]

Gert, CONGRATULATIONS!:)
It was really a nice thing to see the notification from TailMaker in my inbox:)
Downloaded the new version but haven't opened it yet, still on my first "Cuppa" but it looks good.
Should be receiving an order from Dad soon for Kirks Desktop.
Is $45 an introductory price? I noticed a $59.95 crossed out.
Feel free to use any of my pics posted here or, as I mentioned when I registered
I'll be glad to give a "Glowing":) customer recommendation after the expresso kicks in.
Great thing to wake up to!!
scott

[Burkhardt]

....is $45 an introductory price?..........

Yes, that is the idea. Glad you like it.

[bob_dodd]

Gert

Thanks for the updated software , looks interesting , will give it a try this week


bob

[scottp55]

G., That 5-sided Box option looks Really Neat! Going to have to give that one a shot:) Be interested in what people say when they see THAT. A third wood for a really Funky look? So that option creates 3 .TAP files I imagine? Have to scope it out in a SB3 preview to see all 4 sides cut on the bottom panel. So that one would have to be "Onion Skinned"/ Vac Pucked/ or carpet taped I imagine.
Have to read the .PDF again, as I forget to check out the "Tab" thing.
5-sided Always cuts all the way through the fingers like the "Box-Drawer" option?
I KNOW---Read the directions:)
Thanks again Gert!
scott

[Burkhardt]

G.... So that option creates 3 .TAP files I imagine?

5-sided Always cuts all the way through the fingers like the "Box-Drawer" option?
...

The 5-sided open box will create 5 files and the 6-sided cube/brick will make 6 files. Depending on the joint layout, some of them may or may not be identical and redundant. I just found a possible bug in the 5-sided box output with a joint cut missing on one side of one board. Need to look at that tonight.

But I got to explain that anyway more in detail in the manual. Normal drawers and boxes have an A-side joint on both sides of the A-board while the B-board has obviously the B-side joint on both ends. That makes the boards symmetrical.

For the 5 or 6-sided option, all boards are unsymmetrical: they have A-side left and bottom and B-side on right and top. That way when you look at the cube from any side it looks the same. However, I still refer to the boards themselves for sizing pupose as "A-1", "A-2", "B-1", "B-2" for the sides, "ABT" for the top and "ABB" for the bottom. I know it is confusing but the best way I could come up with.

At some point I may add a feature for arranging all cuts from one sheet but maybe that means going overboard. I usually cut them from individual pieces anyway.

The onion skin/tab option should work with the 5/6 side option as well but I guess I have not actually tried that.

[scottp55]

Thanks G. , I actually understood that:) I think you're contagious :)

[Burkhardt]

I feel like being the Orkin Man....killing all the little bugs in my program. But I am getting there. Today I found the protrusion function did not work properly and fixed that. I had originally intended that only to make sure the fingers are at least flush with the mating surfaces for easier sanding but I tried some serious protrusion today and it even looks kind of pretty. Not sure yet what to use it for. That example is roughly thickness sanded yellow cedar fence board and the joints as they come from the machine. No finish sanding, only some laquer.

Don't try that with the currently published software version. I will provide an update over the weekend.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-c0zwgFKuqvY/VCOYABCM1JI/AAAAAAAAFUo/ni1rVDNYOI4/w978-h853-no/DSC02691.JPG

[chiloquinruss]

Well as a model maker it sure looks like it would work for doing log cabins! :) Well done. Russ

[MogulTx]

Gert,

I was about to download the software. Should I wait until you have manipulated it a bit more? I did the demo version the other day. Have not worked with it yet. Just read some of the info to get familiar- and am wanting to download the real deal.

Thanks,

Monty

[Burkhardt]

..... Should I wait until you have manipulated it a bit more?......

Please see my PM.

I have a request: If anybody has a specific questions about the software please PM or email me. I do not want to stress Nancy's patience and abuse this forum as a selling platform (more than I already do) and rather post here about interesting projects and examples that may help do things with your Shopbot.

Thanks!

[scottp55]

Nancy, Morning:)
Just a note; Before Gert's software I couldn't cut fingerjoints or dovetails on the Desktop. Now I can cut the joints with the boards lying flat and it will help us tremendously in the future. I think it may also help the people with Buddy's?
There just isn't another option(I think) for people who can't cut off the edge of the table.
Thank You for letting this stay in here! :)
Hope you have/had a nice weekend.
scott

[myxpykalix]

G,
I would think it would be better to continue to have questions/answers here so we can see what issues may arise and how to resolve them. I have been following this thread with much anticipation and interest. I don't think Shopbot has any problem with this thread. Bottom line is it is helping us use our bots better so i say keep at it buddy!:D

[Burkhardt]

Thanks guys....to make sure, nobody has complained so far or even mentioned something.

But I am mindful of the purpose of this forum. Actually I was planning to keep posting practical information and examples of how this software can be used. I just did not want this to become a Fingermaker helpdesk thread. At some point I may start a user group for that but at this time I think email should still work.

[scottp55]

G,
Finally decided on a finish for the very first box I made:)
A guy on Vectric Forum needed to make a wood canteen and was going to pour wax into it to waterproof interior. And I decided to experiment with Beeswax and the convection oven as I didn't think his approach would work unless wood was pre-heated and was also concerned with what it would do to TB glue joints.
Takes longer than I thought for the wood to "Heat Soak", about 25 minutes at 150F so molten wax could be applied evenly(or unevenly in my case:)
Came out feeling wonderful, and if I hadn't used Craft quality undersized 1/4" ply for the floor of box with an actual .245" dado, I think it would be watertight.
Showed pics to a friend from Oz and pretty sure he's going to be buying now:)
scott
Oh, this was a box I did a poor clamping job on...joints are actually much tighter when clamped correctly.

[Brady Watson]

Scott - Reminded me of this:


http://youtu.be/oWHiHv3C4Vk

-B

[scottp55]

Thanks Brady,
That was interesting! NO WAY I'd do 300F, but good to know.
Didn't know about microcrystaline wax, and the whole sucking the wax up thing, and haven't seen "foam" yet.
Did discolor some Padauk and Purpleheart with about 200F wax at first, but that stuff turns black with the heat of a belt sander if your not careful.
10-20 years exterior!? I LIKE it.
Just trying to get a button that will last in a Woolite hand wash at the moment.
I like 150F as I could hold it comfortably in my hand. Hot, but not painfully so.
Beeswax may be softer sheen, but very pleasant odor and touch. (also better for the "Natural" people:)
Purpleheart and Bloodwood SINK in wax and water!
I might try the oven again for "Special" projects.
Think I'll stay "Garage Band" :) :)
Thanks again,
scott

[Burkhardt]

Scott, that looks very nice. I have dabbled with wax finish but not for a bigger object. Got to try that.

I see Brady's post with a large empty space but there is nothing in it...? Is there supposed to be an image in there?

I started working on the Fingermaker software again the last few days because I noticed the latest Beta that allows for finger joints with boards that are not perpendicular works *almost* correctly. For small 1/8" bits and joint angles close to 90 degree is is usable but larger bits and very acute joint angles leave serious gaps. I know why that happens but fixing this requires a lot of trigonometry to make my head spin. But, all good fun and I guess I will figure this out eventually. If I do I guess it will be a quite unique feature.

[scottp55]

G,
Link to Brady's YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWHiHv3C4Vk&feature=youtu.be
Yep, sold my Master heat gun during a "skinny" period 10 yrs ago, and was trying to come up with a method for larger stuff with tools on hand.
Took a ton of pics to document for CarveOne so he could see what to expect to happen on the Inside of his Canteen. Hopefully labeled pics self explanatorily.(had to zip 18 pics for Vectric forum)
Was surprised it took 15 minutes to heat soak the 1/4" "floor" of box, and 25 for the 3/4" sides to melt 100% Beeswax, but didn't want to go over 150F because of the glued joints.

Will we be able to do poly-sided boxes(octagonals for example)? Probably all 1/8" bits for me.
Thanks again,
scott
NOPE:( Zips to big for this forum. Any body wanting 18 boring pics of a box in an oven...E-mail me. NOT PM

[Brady Watson]

I see Brady's post with a large empty space but there is nothing in it...? Is there supposed to be an image in there?


Not sure why...Maybe you missed a Windows Update or something?

I'm using Chrome. Here's what I see on this end:

[steve_g]

Must still be some IE11 issues…
Win 7 latest updates… here’s what I see. I couldn’t figure why Scott reminded you of a blank slate!
SG

[Burkhardt]

Hm, this blank space happens with Firefox, which I normally use.

I found when I use IE11 (Win7 machine) I can see the embedded Youtube video. Weird.

[scottp55]

Funny G.
Using Firefox and it even plays in the forum without linking.

Steve......paybacks are FUN!!! :) :)

[Ger21]

Works fine on Firefox here as well, even on a really old laptop running XP.
Make sure your Flash is up to date. Firefox seems to require a lot of Flash updating in the last few months.

[Joe Porter]

I see Brady's picture fine...joe

[Burkhardt]

Ha, I found the culprit for not showing the Youtube embedded video. It is the "Google Disconnect" plugin for Firefox. This plugin prevents Google from tracking my web browsing. And, since Youtube belongs to Google, they apparently don't like it.

So, looks like I have the choice of having Big brother track my evil ways or not see the embedded Youtube videos. I guess I know what I am going to do.....

[carolinasmith]

I just trialed my first finger joint box with FingerMaker! last night and am excited at the prospects. The only small boxes I had made prior were 45 degree miter joints. I have the straight 1/8" ball nose bits. I left questions to a couple of eBay sellers asking about their 1/16 bn bits (want to make sure they are not tapered) . Any current good source for the 1/16" size?

Also, is it worth exploring looking for 1/4" bn bit size for a larger project (like a bookcase, or IKEA style cubicle storage but made from solid hardwood)? If so, any reliable and money saving source?

Thank you

[steve_g]

http://stores.ebay.com/carbideplus/
I’ve had good results ordering the little guys from Drillman1 on ebay…
SG