Software upgraded, pause/resume problems now

[jTr]

Upgraded to the latest software last week. Became acclimated rather quickly to the minor changes in appearance, etc. Things ran smoothly all last week, but did notice it is sluggish to respond to a "soft" stop request via mouse click.

Today: broke a bit and ruined a piece of 8/4 mahogany.

- Dust skirt needed height adjustment for final cleanup pass, so I hit stop button with mouse and machine sluggishly responded.
- Determined bit was not high enough above material to pull spacer on Kent shoe for more clearance, so I decided to simply resume cutting.
- Hit resume, and started the spindle, as prompted.
-SURPRISE!!! machine ramped across workpiece, so it dragged the spinning bit across a finished piece.
- Final icing on cake: software had switched off the spindle upon resuming, so upon completion of ruining the work piece with the ramping motion, it broke the bit.
- Naturally, I hit the stop button. Machine disregarded. Hit it again, no acknowledgement. After the 6th hit of stop button with mouse, it decided to respond.

Thought this stopping motion issue had been eradicated from the latest version. Any way to modify and dump this ruinous ramp motion?

Always cringed when doing an FG /restart of file, because if you selected the wrong option, it would do the same slow ramp, raking the spinning bit across previously cut pieces in the process. Do I really have to live with that for a simple resume now?

Guess I 'll be calling for support on Monday, but would appreciate any advice on what may be adjusted in the software to dial this into a better state of harmony.

I waited a year to upgrade in order to avoid these types of bugs....

[srwtlc]

I feel your pain Jeff! Although I've been using and abusing it daily, I just can't give a glowing recommendation of it. The only reason I keep using it is because I want to see them fix it and make it better. Please send a report to support.

One thing I've found is that a reset to default values before using the latest version (along with loading/updating the firmware) seems to help. Also, it's best to use the spacebar to stop/pause the tool instead of a mouse click. If the software seems to be locked up and won't close, tapping at least 6 times on the spacebar will terminate the program.

I have seldom if ever had a problem with a pause and resume, but will never use FG to restart a file (unless your are positioned above the point that you are to resume the cut) and will generally just edit the file to start where I want to restart at and run it as normal.

Sorry, I got nothin' concrete for ya. Had a week of weirdness with it myself last week!

[jTr]

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19668

[jTr]

After a few days and tech support calls and emails:

- Even though all updates to windows, firewall, etc. were turned off, I found the little flag on right side of task bar was showing a red x warning for several issues. (Previous version seemed unaffected by this.)
- Opened the "Solve PC Issues" box - each topic had yet another option to select to essentially disregard and never ask or warn me again - one for each issue.
- Re-booted, and seems to have eliminated all the described problems. The before and after is like a keystroke logger was running and I turned it off.

Now I'm actually enjoying some of the new features of this version. Anyone else hesitating, it seems SB has done a good job advancing things with this update, and yet again, User and Windows was where the real adjustments were needed. The memory functions on the keypad are a very welcome addition, and it seems the lost communications issue has been drastically reduced (none so far!)

Note to self: next computer will be made to order by a local tech supplier with specific details of how exactly it will be utilized.

[khaos]

... ruined a piece of 8/4 mahogany. ...

Simply this is quite enough for me to stay right where I am @ dependable predictable v3.6.

[bleeth]

I know this has been said many times before, but it is way past time when SB should simply include a control computer with it's machines.

[dlcw]

Ruined many pieces of expensive material and broken many bits with the Shopbot when 'updating' to a new version of the control software for this machine.

I will stay at 3.6.?? (works, so I'm not going to fix it). I'm not willing to be a beta software tester when my livelihood is on the line.

I wonder if owners of other brands of machines, that provide a control computer, ruin as much material or break as many bits as Shopbot owners? Just curious..... :confused:

[jTr]

I feel compelled to re-state the conclusion of my experience with the software upgrade process:

1. Most important point - It was my control computer and my inadequate tuning/tweaking that was at the root of the problem. (Though embarrassing to admit!)

2. Tech support's response has been exemplary - phone response and email communications have helped greatly in resolving the issues, and I've done my best to let them know not only what wasn't working, but what exactly corrected the issues.

3. I agree with Dave - always wished they would provide a well tuned control computer - would save headaches for us and them. Realize of course, the can of worms to open when becoming a computer "manufacturer" and the insane software licensing hoops and inevitable fees.

4. Now that issues are resolved, I am enjoying improved communications between control computer and machine, as well as the new efficiency features that I've quickly grown fond of.

Simply put - I'm glad I took the plunge and gotten over the curve. Forward motion in any business is vital, which is precisely why I invested in a Shopbot, which I know was precisely the right decision for me. Absolutely revolutionary to my business, and I have nothing but gratitude to the Shopbot team for enabling me to advance exponentially in my ability to produce an exemplary product for each of my clients, as Shopbot has done for theirs.

Jeff

[bbrozo]

I'm glad you've resolved your issues with upgrading Jeff but felt I should chime in as one of those happy SB 3.6.46 users that has no plans to upgrade to the latest version as well. I tried about a year ago and had problems for the next 6 months (slowdowns, loss of communication, SB control software crashes, E-stop no longer works, etc.) . Granted some of the issues were my fault but SB 3.6.x is rock solid and is more tolerant of goofs on my part.

Bill

[Simops]

I might as well chime in......I deal with computers a lot in my business......incompatibilities between programs and hardware are the Bain of my life....this is a Windows liability......if we ran everything on Mac life would be easier although a lot less flexible and more expensive.
Windows based PCs are more flexible and cheaper hence their popularity.

Nevertheless if you are going to write code for a program to run in Windows then it should be robust enough to work in that OS.....a PC solve icon on the task bar should not be a game changer. If you are going to produce software to run in Windows then it needs to be stable and robust to work with other programs otherwise you produce a dedicated control computer whether embedded or not that is tweaked to just run the one program. I use 3.6.44 and it seems to meet this stability very well for me.

I would prefer an embedded system so that all you have on the outside is a screen, KB and mouse. If it should fail down the track all you have to do is order another from SB and replace it......plug and play!

Cheers

[curtiss]

Sometimes you can create your toolpaths so the bit does not ever cross over your finished material which can prevent most damage.

[PNast]

I have also broke bits, damaged boards clamps and table. It even destroyed my dust shroud assembly because it jogged diagonally into a clamp at about 100 mph. I have complained to Shopbot many times on the last several versions. It's like they don't care. Now if I absolutely must use it, I keep my hand on the big red stop button. There is a pause problem 6 out of 10 times.

[Rick W]

I have a brand new dell computer (cheap) running windows 8.1, control software 3.8.12 and haven't had a problem yet. With the exception of the red stop button so I just use the space bar if needed. I'm happy.

Rik

[bbrozo]

I second that opinion that SB support didn't seem to care when I called them several times last year. So, my solution has been to go back to 3.6.46 with no plans for upgrading. My CNC is another tool in the shop, it does what I need it to do (at least on 3.6.46). I rely on it and can't put up with flaky behavior.

Bill

[jTr]

Just to reiterate the outcome for me:
1> Support was responsive and did their best to guide me through the issues.
2> Once issues were resolved after installing the latest control software, my Shopbot is running better than ever. I appreciate Shopbot's efforts at continually improving the software.

- No more lost comm's, likely due to large increase in data buffering.
- The memory buttons on the keypad are helping me work more efficiently.
- Ramping values for cornering no longer needed adjusting - things move more smoothly with the new settings - no need to go into the VR screen to tweak.

Shopbot has been shipping new machines and users have been running this version for over a year now, which is what made me realize the issues must be on my control computer's end.

Again, watch those "action center" warnings on your PC - if you have a red X by the flag in the right hand side of the start bar, it can cause all the issues discussed here. As crazy as that seems, it is what tripped up my machine. Once I opened action center, reiterated I no longer wished to receive update warnings, virtually all the issues stated ceased to be a problem.
(I must state again, I had originally gone into task manager and instructed windows to never update, and these warnings still persisted!!!!)

Windows has way too many hidden/multiple layers of tracers, trackers and warning systems built in, and increasing with every new version . It seems more inevitable that the day is coming sooner than later that Shopbot will be forced to provide control computers with an operating system truly crafted for such purposes.

I think hesitating on updates for years on end will make it even tougher for the average operator to move forward if the day comes when there is no choice - small increments are better than trying to skip over multiples.

Was it easy for me? - obviously not. However, in the end, I have gained ground for the efforts expended.

jeff

[PNast]

I do not believe it is the computer. It didn't happen in the 3.6 versions. The old "your computer is not powerful enough or something is running in the background" is a poor excuse. I was originally running a laptop with everything turned off, and support told me it was not powerful enough. I spent $1800 on the most powerful desktop I could get and guess what? Same problems! The problems came and went as new versions came out. I personally think 3.8.14 is the buggiest version yet. Every once in a while when a carve finishes and it goes back to the home position, I get a not enough axes error and the whole SB software crashes and loses position. Support has no idea what is causing it. I do...... bad software.

[bcondon]

SO having worked in the computer software industry for 35 years and 15 years as a QA Manager, I have found that UPGRADES are the worst thing that you can do. Testing upgrades are HELL. I am disturbed that something as PAUSE is not completely tested because PAUSE is necessary to avert injury to the operator.

SIgh....

I am running SB 3.5.0.12 built in September 2008 and an old vista system.

There is nothing new that I have seen that impells me to upgrade to a newer version..... NOTHING.


I am also disturbed that it is being said that the Shopbot personell have been less than helpful. I have never found that but because I don't call with real problems (aka... no upgrade), I find them helpful.

I will say that 50% of the forum bandwidth is to upgrades... maybe more.

There are no awards for keeping SB current unless you find stress and down time an award.


Ted... if you need help with QA, give me a call.

Thanks

Bob Condon

[adrianm]

I upgraded partially because there were several features of the new software that were of interest to me and they have streamlined the way I work so it was well worth the time.

Personally I've found the whole pause and resume to be flaky in every version of the shopbot software I've used since 2009. The current one is no better or worse in my experience.

My gut feeling is that a lot of the variation in peoples experiences is more to do with the way Windows is set up on the machine rather than anything else.

It's a shame that the language the software is written in makes a port to Linux unlikely as I think that an ISO image that could be downloaded and installed on a dedicated box would solve a huge number of problems overnight.

[PNast]

I have thought about going back to the 3.6 version but I cant live without the preset location buttons. I had problems with the accuracy Z Zeroing between bit changes so I installed a bolt in the table surface to zero instead of the aluminum plate. It is much more accurate this way and the preset location buttons make getting back to the position easy. I also wish they would spend some time making the probe software better. Nothing worse then a long probe getting stuck in the middle and having to restart. I carve many signs a day pretty much 6-7 days a week. My PRSAlpha runs 12 plus hours everyday, maybe that's why I see more software problems then most users not running the bot as long.

[Ajcoholic]

I've kept up to the latest updates for over a year now without any issues what so ever.

Still using the laptop I bought specifically to run the machine in January 2012. No internet, nothing on it except aspire and shopbot stuff.

I use a second computer for everything else and to go on line.

Just got the record, as with everything else in life, you only hear about the negatives/problems. And I am sure there are many more like myself who are running without issues.

Just another perspective. I'm not belittling the issues as I am in business and know what any pc of equipment down can do to cause grief. But if just might not simply be the software or we'd all be having issues, no?

[bcondon]

Andrew

My machine is only used as a control machine
Never on the internet
Never with virus protections

I think the folks at shopbot need to explain their testing environment and
Provide recommendations.

[Bob Eustace]

Agree with Andrew that the current version is dimply bullet proof and comms issues seem a dim dark distant memory and we are also on Win 8 which loads ready to cut in 31 seconds.

[scottp55]

Normally I would agree with everybody that says 3.8.14 is good, but yesterday dialling in a new bit for small diameter circles I paused cut after half a dozen holes to check bit temp. Mouse paused move but spindle kept going until spacebar hit (several seconds with a "stopping" showing on screen). Normally I would not resume, but have followed this thread, so hit resume and watch close--good thing I did as spindle DID NOT START. I'd Paused at full retract during an X,Y move. Control computer Black Vipered and NEVER been hooked to internet. Wondering if a reinstall might help, but have gotten away from Pause/Resume and normally just Quit and RR. I DID have 3 VCP files open as I'd been importing and exporting and saving templates, but it's never been an issue before. Should I have limited open VCP files to 1? Or should that have nothing to do with it?:confused:

[dlcw]

Scott,

Interesting that the spindle did not restart. This happened to me in the last release of 3.6.

Paused, resume, dialog box popped up to start spindle, clicked OK, spindle did not start, drove non spinning bit into a $100 piece of rustic hickory plywood and broke the bit off. It was a $40 compression bit.

Very pissed. Won't ever try to pause and resume again with this machine. Pause/resume is one INCREDIBLY unstable "feature".

[srwtlc]

Scott,

There has been an ongoing issue when pausing with the spacebar/enter/mouse at just the right moment, typically with files that have a lot of jogs from cut to cut such as v-carving, many successive holes, etc. and if you pause at just the right point (like right when it starts to jog to the next spot), you can get the 'stopping' message for a long time or the tool will slowly wander off before stopping and possibly even start jerking around some before stopping.

Reinstalling will not help, having VCP files open in the background didn't cause it, Black Viper setup has nothing to do with it, it just happens if pausing is done at just the right moment. I can't make it happen at will, but I can make it happen if I try it enough times and hit it just right. It's been reported for over a year and they can't seem to nail it down. I've had the same issues on an old cluttered internet connected PC on Win7, a barebones XP, and a fresh new custom build totally dedicated Win7 PC. Default ramp settings the least likely and custom ramp settings most likely.

Upon resuming, it should ask to press the start button first and upon doing that the spindle should start and then you can hit ok to continue on, but if you have had or noticed any strange behavior at the point of a pause, I'd recommend not resuming if at all possible or at the very least, be vigilant and at the e-stop.

I don't know why they can't nail this one down, but it's apparently not something that they can repeat in house. I've sent numerous files and the steps to trigger it.

I've also seen the 'Not enough axes' error. Be aware of this one, because as you click through the error messages to finally get back to normal, the DRO's will read a random number of thousandths off in XY (possibly Z too) when it should be 0,0. This one bit me good before I caught what was happening. In my situation, a day of PAUSE UNTIL commands seemed to trigger it. Also reported, but no reply on that one yet.

[scottp55]

Thanks Guys, going back to not resuming for the moment. MIGHT have hit at beginning of X,Y move but know it was at full retract. Seems like it was stopping much faster when fresh install, has been slow all this week during all kinds of moves, I just hadn't resumed in awhile.

[scottp55]

Just one more thing, last week I rebundled my wires and was going to take DirtBags off and triple check how I bundled to eliminate "crosstalk", but slow response to spacebar and mouse stops are the ONLY flaky behavior I've noticed this week. Trying to remember which are the Most important wires besides USB to keep separated that May cause that slow response. Could be my fault.

[srwtlc]

Full retract and right at the beginning or during the beginning of a jog to the next start point is the absolute worst moment to pause, but is generally the exact moment at which ones brain signals the hand to hit the spacebar because something is wrong or you didn't want to do what you're about to do or you just though that was a good time to do it! ;)


has been slow all this week during all kinds of movesYou didn't happen to change your ramp settings recently and forget to reset them to defaults? Don't do it with the fill-in sheet 'Reset', as it's not always the values for your tool. That's something that has always been wrong and hasn't been addressed. I've always thought that 3.8 has been a bit soggy to keyboard/mouse input and this has been across 3 different PC's.

Best to keep your USB and spindle cable non parallel to each other and other cables as much as possible.

[scottp55]

Thanks for help Scott. Nope, Haven't mucked about with settings yet, got bogged down with other stuff. Thanks for cable info.

[Ajcoholic]

I cant say I have used the pause/resume often... so on that I will not comment.

My point was, there are some of us who are using the most current update very successfully. AGain, I am not suggesting these issues are not real and important to fix.

AJC

[scottp55]

Andrew, except on pause/resume absolutely solid for us. Did have issues with 3.8.4 and 3.8.8 But they were addressed. Glad I'm not a software programmer!:)
Thank you Ted and Crew!

[dmidkiff]

Several years ago there was a problem with stopping a file with space bar in 3.4.27. Don't remember what, but you could use the S key to stop too. I only use the S key to stop now and have had no problems and I can also resume. May not be relevant with the new software, but thought I would post just incase it might help.

[scottp55]

Cutting some air first thing today with multiple plunges and short rapid X,Y's so will try. Didn't know that David, so Thanks. You running 3.8.14?

[PNast]

I was going through the ShopBot Control Software - Version Update Notes and a few issues that were addressed in previous versions are back in 3.8.14. Ver. 3.8.4 - A "slow down" in motion that happens when running a file, once started it continues (tends to occur with slower processors). This problem is back and unfortunately you have to pause and resume to fix it. Also if my Dell XPS 8700 4th Generation Intel Core i7-4770 processor (8M Cache, up to 3.9 GHz) 12GB Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz - 4 DIMMs Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit is a "slower processor", please tell me where to get this secret super processor that the ShopBot Control Software needs to run. Version 3.8.8 fixed - Z pull-up error in multiple toolpath files fixed, Fixed problem with spindle turning off when commands entered manually from keyboard and Fixed problem in some situation with Z-Zero not returning to correct location at end of routine. All 3 of these back in 3.8.14. I have also noticed more Z-Zero failed messages in this version. The bit comes down and touches the zero plate, input 1 lights up and then comes down for second slower plunge. It touches the plate input 1 lights up and error message " Z Zero has failed" I run it again and it will zero fine. I usually see all the software problems when running larger files like pocket text with 3-d carvings using multiple bit changes. I rarely see problems when doing basic cutouts. I didn't spend $30,000 to cutout circles! The Shopbot software has been Very frustrating.

[PNast]

I also had a SB tech come to my shop to make sure everything was setup correct for $1700. My Shopbot is 100%. Communication to computer is excellent, grounded properly. He cellphone videoed some of the problems, I have not heard back on any resolutions.

[Bob Eustace]

Paul - if your Z fails on the second plunge I have found wiping the plate with a Scotchbrite followed by thinners or metho does the trick. Having said that though I havent had the problem since the last update!

[steve_g]

Any time I have had that issue, I have been touching the plate… I was thinking my body capacitance was causing the issue. Has anyone else noticed this?
SG

[Brady Watson]

I was thinking my body capacitance was causing the issue. Has anyone else noticed this?


Yes. But if you mention it to SB they will think you are nuts. :rolleyes:

-B

[scottp55]

Funny Brady, Every 5'th or 6'th time I "Steady" the Z-plate with my finger in a "tough" spot--I fault. Whereas otherwise maybe one in 50.
Problem is--I'm Newbie--so I don't know what is improbable(or impossible).
"What old men say cannot be done--The Young Try--and find they Can" Paraphrased I'm positive(but close)

[Ajcoholic]

I was going through the ShopBot Control Software - Version Update Notes and a few issues that were addressed in previous versions are back in 3.8.14. Ver. 3.8.4 - A "slow down" in motion that happens when running a file, once started it continues (tends to occur with slower processors). This problem is back and unfortunately you have to pause and resume to fix it. Also if my Dell XPS 8700 4th Generation Intel Core i7-4770 processor (8M Cache, up to 3.9 GHz) 12GB Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz - 4 DIMMs Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit is a "slower processor", please tell me where to get this secret super processor that the ShopBot Control Software needs to run. Version 3.8.8 fixed - Z pull-up error in multiple toolpath files fixed, Fixed problem with spindle turning off when commands entered manually from keyboard and Fixed problem in some situation with Z-Zero not returning to correct location at end of routine. All 3 of these back in 3.8.14. I have also noticed more Z-Zero failed messages in this version. The bit comes down and touches the zero plate, input 1 lights up and then comes down for second slower plunge. It touches the plate input 1 lights up and error message " Z Zero has failed" I run it again and it will zero fine. I usually see all the software problems when running larger files like pocket text with 3-d carvings using multiple bit changes. I rarely see problems when doing basic cutouts. I didn't spend $30,000 to cutout circles! The Shopbot software has been Very frustrating.


I dont think this is, or was ever an issue of having the most capable computer. If anything, most of the guys having issues are using a computer far more powerful than us who are using a middle of the road, off the shelf computer. Mine was $500, an Acer laptop bought at the local shop in 2012 when I got my machine. Nothing super fast or anything. But I have had nothing of these problems you guys are talking of. And I do a lot of 3D shaped parts. Generally 1/2 hour to 1 1/2 hour cut times (none of that 24 hr stuff).

I also have not experienced any slow downs, not even once, since the software was upgraded.

It is just odd that some are having (and have had since the new version) issues while others are not.

AJC

[jTr]

It is just odd that some are having (and have had since the new version) issues while others are not.

Andrew, this is almost verbatim the reaction SB had regarding my issues. Again, in my case, the auto update triggers underneath the updates I had toggled off had a profound effect on my system's performance. My hope was that my experience would help others in a similar situation benefit from it as well.

Million dollar question:
Why did I not have these issues for two years prior on the old version running the same computer with the same settings? Who knows. I jest when I say, it is as if Windows was suddenly jealous that another program got updated and it didn't..:rolleyes:

Buying a mass produced machine and cleaning it up myself was supposed to be no problem, but clearly things have become exponentially more complex. Bottom line for me - I'm following your lead next time I need a computer - get a local computer shop to tailor it to fit it's intended purpose.

jeff

[Ajcoholic]

Andrew, this is almost verbatim the reaction SB had regarding my issues. Again, in my case, the auto update triggers underneath the updates I had toggled off had a profound effect on my system's performance. My hope was that my experience would help others in a similar situation benefit from it as well.

Million dollar question:
Why did I not have these issues for two years prior on the old version running the same computer with the same settings? Who knows. I jest when I say, it is as if Windows was suddenly jealous that another program got updated and it didn't..:rolleyes:

Buying a mass produced machine and cleaning it up myself was supposed to be no problem, but clearly things have become exponentially more complex. Bottom line for me - I'm following your lead next time I need a computer - get a local computer shop to tailor it to fit it's intended purpose.

jeff

Jeff,
I might know a thing or two about woodworking, but when it comes to computers I know practically zilch.

I just took the recommended specs for Aspire and Shopbot - and showed the man at the computer shop and said I dont want to pay more than I need to... but I wanted a 17" screen, and a laptop (I wanted the portability).

I either got really lucky, or ?? I read about the guys spec-ing all these features when it comes to processors, memory etc and it means nothing to me since all I know is how to turn on the computer and run the software.

I do bring my control machine home every 6 or 8 months and update the windows (did the last one about a month ago, was in 2013 before that). But All I know is I have pretty much everything turned off, and it was hard enough for me to figure that out.

Again, I do feel for you guys having issues. Been there with other machinery at one point or the other (not computer related however, mechanical issues) and I understand when a major machine in the shop is down, it affects the business.

[adrianm]

I'm sure I've read posts from ShopBot saying that there is no need to go to the levels of stripping down Windows that a lot of people seem to.

That's certainly my experience anyway. I turn off the screensaver, stop automatic updates and make sure the powersaver features are turned off. Other than that it's just a plain old Windows installation and works perfectly.

It does seem that the more modern and powerful the PC is the more problems people seem to have. I've always run my Bot on 6 to 10 year old hardware and it's been fine.

I wish ShopBot would set up one of the many online bug tracking solutions available so people could record the problems they're having and submit a hardware/software report. I'm sure a pattern would become evident very quickly.

[bleeth]

I started getting the Z fault on second plunge after I upgraded my control box and motors to Alpha. I still run 3.6xx software. It happens irregularly. I have always held my z plate while zeroing. Sometimes after clearing the software and resetting the control box it will work fine and other times I have to completely shut down and restart. Have yet to find a common denominator that sets it off.
When it first started happening SB kind of scratched their heads about it and that was it.
Once in a great while it will do it on first plunge.

[PNast]

After reading Dave's post, maybe the software problems are Alpha related? Andrew what type of machine do you have? I have read on the forum that multi core processors could be causing problems but when I asked SB they said absolutely not. The only reason I upgraded my computer is because SB said the problems I am having are because of a slow computer. The slow down doesn't happen that often but I have seen it a few times in 3.8.14. Z Zero has failed on the second plunge drives me crazy. What I cant understand is it always works when I run the C2 a second time. The 60 degree V-bit always fails the first C2. SB sent me a new ZZero file last week to try, it was worse and always failed. I went back to the old file, at least that one got it on the 2nd try.

[adrianm]

Mine is an Alpha.

[steve_g]

So is mine...
SG

[dlcw]

I started getting the Z fault on second plunge after I upgraded my control box and motors to Alpha. I still run 3.6xx software. It happens irregularly. I have always held my z plate while zeroing. Sometimes after clearing the software and resetting the control box it will work fine and other times I have to completely shut down and restart. Have yet to find a common denominator that sets it off.
When it first started happening SB kind of scratched their heads about it and that was it.
Once in a great while it will do it on first plunge.

I have this same problem on z-Zero (C2). It is intermittent and I can not trace it to anything. 3.6.xx control software in place. It has been this way since day one with my machine. Sometimes it happens at the beginning of the day on the first C2 try, other times it won't happen at all for many. many days or even weeks. Mine always happens on the first plunge. Have to bring up the keypad, move the Z back up, shut everything down, restart and then everything is fine. The good thing is it has never happened in the middle of a job when doing a manual tool change. :)

I think somehow gremlins get in there at night sometimes... :eek:

[bleeth]

So from these few posts we seem to be limiting this issue to Alpha's. Any Standard users having it?
Note that likely unlike the rest of you I'm using the old fashioned prox switches and zeroing plate which are actually wired differently than the new ones and I had been thinking that might be it, but clearly not.

[PNast]

My Alpha is a little over a year old.

[Simops]

Not sure if this is the same issue but occasionally (rarely really) when I do a z-zero to the plate the first plunge touches the plate and stops there and won't lift to do the second plunge......this is a nuisance during a manual tool change.

I have a standard using 3.6.44 control software. Anyhow this is the only issue I ever get and it's rare! I'm happy if that's all it is....so will stick with this control software for some time to come.

I recently had an issue with some simulator software I had to install on a customer's PC.....the software would constantly glitch and stop working......ended up changing the motherboard to another brand and problem solved......go figure!

BTW I'm using a 5 year old laptop with Vista (no internet connected).....it works well.

In my experience working with computers I find that Windows based computers are always going to be somewhat hit and miss when it comes to compatibility issues. There are soooo many hardware vendors out there making components for PC based system that invariably you will get incompatibility issues arise.

If Shopbot made its control software natively for Apple based computers it would be much more stable. Apple Macs are rock solid!


Cheers

[bleeth]

Mike:

Sounds like a version of the same issue. As I recall you've had your unit for 2-3 years now. The date of the oldest units having this issue may help SB narrow down the problem as it could identify when certain changes were made on their end.
As far as designing the software to run via IOS I have to disagree with you. Although in many ways it is more stable than MS, IMHO the best solution, as I and many others have stated in the past, is to stop trying to make the software work on any computer and actually package a dedicated unit with it and base it all on Linux. Probably the cleanest running software out there, as well as being able to build that dedicated control computer for the least dollar. That is, however, an argument for another thread that you are welcome to start. I would like to see this thread stay focused on the specific z-zeroing issue.
I think (and I will check) I am also running 3.6.44. Is anyone experiencing this issue running a previous version?

[dlcw]

Not sure if this is the same issue but occasionally (rarely really) when I do a z-zero to the plate the first plunge touches the plate and stops there and won't lift to do the second plunge......this is a nuisance during a manual tool change.


EXACTLY what my machine does. 2009 PRS Alpha 60x96. has been a problem since day 1. 3.6.xx control software.

The really BIG problem is when you are running a large cut file like Shopbot Link that I have built a Z-zeroing routine because it zeros to top of table not to top of material. All I do is put in the new bit, hit enter and the machine goes off and Z-zeros itself, switches on the spindle and starts cutting. When the control software has a brain fart and stops on that first plunge, you can't restart the file. You have to regenerate the file in SBLink, output it to Shopbot control, cross your fingers and hope this doesn't happen. It has and what a pain in the a$$. With SBLink you can nest MANY sheets of material (I've done up to 20) in one job. One Shopbot brain fart and you have to start again. :mad:

NOT ACCEPTABLE SHOPBOT!
Please get this fixed.
It's been going on too long now!

[gc3]

3.6.44/4G board on my vintage pr...and have same z zero issue ohh maybe every 10 -12 routines

just learned to deal with it and hope file cuts complete

other machine...not one issue with z touch off or comms...

[Ajcoholic]

I was routing some mahogany furniture parts today. I tried stopping/pausing and re-starting files - no issues. And I dont recall any Z zero issues.

I was having some issues a few months ago - then I realised my cheap mouse button was acting up. I got a new mouse and no more issues.

[adrianm]

So from these few posts we seem to be limiting this issue to Alpha's..

Mine's an Alpha and works perfectly with latest software. C2 has always been faultless in every version though.

[jerry_stanek]

PRS standard here and only had the c2 problem back with 3.6.44. I have been using the new software from the beta came out with just minor problems non with 3.8.14 that I can see.

[scottp55]

Two Desktops using 3.8.14 with vastly different computers, 2 different operators, machines 350 miles apart. We can count on a C2 fault 2-3 times a week (always on the first plunge). Thought it was normal.

[jTr]

For what it's worth, thought I'd mention my Z-Zero issues:

Almost never.

Maybe a dozen times in over two years I've seen zeroing process itself "fail". About 6 mos. after purchase, the ground clip was attached to Z car. I utilize a miniature quick grip clamp to hold plate to a small block leveled to table surface at position -.40,4.0 . Clamp assures safety, consistency and no unintentional capacitance from holding the plate steady by hand. Regardless of all previously stated issues I've experienced, Z-zero has been almost 100% reliable and consistent since doing so, regardless of control software version.

My machine:
2012 9660 Alpha.

jeff

[bleeth]

Not sure there's a pattern here yet, but could be.
I'm running 3.6.46
Remembered that I upgraded from an older 3.xx when doing the Alpha upgrade. Went through SB files etc to see if I could find which one but no joy
Does anyone with an older than 3.6.44 have it going on?

[dlcw]

Two Desktops using 3.8.14 with vastly different computers, 2 different operators, machines 350 miles apart. We can count on a C2 fault 2-3 times a week (always on the first plunge). Thought it was normal.

Not normal. I CNC should not be doing that.

So it appears to be across 3.8 and 3.6 that this problem is occurring. Not limited to PRS Alpha with 3.6.

I would sure like to see someone from Shopbot chime in here and provide some leadership and ownership on this, it would be most appreciated. Thank you.

[bleeth]

A little birdie told me to change to 3.6.18 if running the link or 3.5.20 if not.
Trouble is neither of those versions are available on the archive.
I'm pretty sure it was 3.6.18 I was running previously but when you upgrade the previous install versions get overwritten unlike some other software so I can't restore it.

Yesterday or so I sent a link to this thread to the big kahuna at SB. No reply yet, but I am sure he is monitoring. Hopefully having some discussions with his little kahunas.

[adrianm]

3.6.18 and 3.5.20 are both available here - http://shopbottools.com/mSupport/SBCSarchive.htm

[bleeth]

Got the birdies numbers a little off.
3.5.18 and 3.6.16 are his suggestions.

[bill.young]

I've never had to use the grounding clip on my gantry tools, but have to on the Desktop. If I don't clip it onto the collet nut, zeroing fails about every other time.

Just curious if the ShopBotters having z-zeroing problems are using the grounding clip?

Bill

[dlcw]

Bill - I have my grounding clip tied into the ground system on my machine. My spindle body is connected to the grounding system as well. 0.00 ohms showing on the impedance meter. No floating grounds detected anywhere in the grounding system.

I have a Z-zero failure about once every few days. I zero sometimes a dozen or more times a day and most of the time (99.9%) it zeros just fine. That .1% is the real pain because it happens at the most inopportune times. I wish I could narrow it down to hot/cold days, high/low humidity days, etc. But I can't. It is very random and erratic.

[scottp55]

Bill, Just speaking for the two Desktops, but my Desktop has NEVER used grounding clip on bit or collet nut. Because it worked so well, and so much faster, Kirk's machine was setup same way. Good point though, as when I moved mine to Crate I went to grounding on 0,0 leg leveller like some have. Incidence seems up compared to grounding on bare metal near 0,0 prox switch. No electrical #'s like Don has, But always have a green input 1. Moving back to bare metal.
I was trimming 0,0 on fences for your "Wedging Top" today and noticed a massive screw-up on my part---Hit "S" then spacebar, finally mouse-- on mouse, feed slowed by half? each time I pressed it, until I pressed it enough time for SB3 to shut down---Spindle STILL running! E-stop!! Did not lift out of material-did not stop till E-stop. Makes me kinda nervous. 3.8.14 UR'd yesterday and Firmwared.

[PNast]

I ground to the collet nut on my PRSalpha. I have even tried grounding to the bit. V bits give me the most trouble failing the first try 100% of the time. 1/4 end mill fails about 25% of the time. 1/16 ball nose fails about 60% of the time. All bits always zero properly on the second try.

[scottp55]

Forgot to mention, NEVER happens twice in a row.

[steve_g]

I always use the clip on the collet of my PC router… Z-zero failure, when it happens, is usually the first one of the day… I once thought I had solved the issue by soldering the wire to the clip and by carefully cleaning the aluminum to copper connection on the z-zero plate. I wonder if the issue is related to the dissimilar metals…
SG

[Ajcoholic]

I clip the clamp onto one of the nuts on the back of my z car. I don't have any zeroing issues or faults????

If I did man I'd be upset as well. But something isn't right here. How can a few guys be having so many issues and so many none? :confused:

[adrianm]

I don't use the grounding clip. Never needed to with my PRS Alpha.

Are the people with problems touching the plate on the bit first to check that input 1 lights? I do that every time just to be sure.

[scottp55]

Religiously checking input light every time on our 2.:)

[bleeth]

I'm using the original z-zero plate that had no grounding clip. From the variety of machine types that have this issue and the heavy experience of many of the users, I don't think it is a grounding issue either.
I think it started popping up at some particular SB3 software or control card revision.

[Ryan P]

We have seen this when the Save Z pull up is less than the thickness of the plate. Reading through the post I am not seeing any pattern. If you of you could email me your Z_zero.sbp file located in the SBparts folder along with your settings file. To save the settings go to Utilities Save Current settings. With these files we can hope to duplicate and solve the issue. Email to ryan.p@shopbottools.com

[PNast]

The Z Zero issue is a pain sometimes but I have learned to live with it. I do believe the most important software issue that needs to be dealt with is the erratic behavior when resuming from a pause. This is dangerous to the user and the machine. I try to limit my use of the pause/resume but sometimes I have no choice. Most times I have to use it to nudge the Z a little from a bit change that is off a small amount.

[PNast]

For the record, all of my files are created using Aspire 4.514 build 1978.1567.170

[srwtlc]

Ryan, since most peoples z plate came from SB and the approximate thickness has been 0.121 (&zbot) for years, because of the following line in the routine, the safe z setting (&zup) would have to be less than 0.121 for the IF/THEN to be true, which would then change the safe z variable to 0.242 which in turn negates the issue. I don't think there are many users that have there safe z set to less than the plate thickness.

IF &zup < &zbot then &zup = &Zbot * 2 'If pull up not greater than thickness, just double thickness

This condition has been happening for several years (first reported by myself and Gary Campbell back in the early 3.7 beta days which was before the final 3.6 version) It will happen often after a tool change or numerous tool changes and rezeroing or if there was a problem/error previous the z zeroing, it was almost guaranteed to happen. Always on the first plunge/touch and never on the second running of it after a fail. I'm more inclined to think that it's something related to the code and controller/software relationship than any setting or electrical issue outside of the controller/PC. As stated earlier, it started with the betas back before 3.6.

I have a custom z zeroing file that I used to pick up the z variance between an initial z zero and 24 other locations to save the variance as a variable and that had to be done for each sheet of material for 52 sheets and I never once had the z zero fail during any of those, only on the first initial zeroing to get the baseline, which used the default z zero routine.

I know that there is a setting of the input to nothing in the routine to prevent a false trigger or bounce, but could there be some kind of internal debounce setting issue?

[bleeth]

Thanks for checking in Ryan.

There is no doubt that this started happening somewhere between the first 3.6 release and the last. At one of the releases one of the changes was a drastic increase in packet size needed by the desktop due to its high unit values. I believe this is when this and a couple other issues re: keyboard and FG started creeping in on some folks.

For the record-My safe z pullup after first contact is like an inch. Never messed with the z-zero file other than verifying plate thickness.

Maybe the "one software fits all" needs to be re-thought and the desktop should have it's own version while the rest of the mills another?

Although I know I am running the "last" 3.6 now, I am pretty darn sure that I didn't go to any 3.6 until several release versions in. Simply as I never go to a new version when it is first released. I recall several conversations with other botters about some versions of 3.6 having these issues and me having none of them with my "custom" pre 4g Gecko controller.

So it is also noteworthy that the z issue never happened to me until after I upgraded to the Alpha controller.

When it fails the best description I can come up with is it is as if the entire routine crashed. I get the strange feeling that although the bit contacted the plate the system didn't recognize that contact and then when it couldn't move it shut itself down. Hence needing to press restart sometimes before being able to raise the bit via keyboard control.

[PNast]

I removed the wire from the zero plate, clipped off the little round connector and soldered on an alligator clip. Over 200 bit changes and it hasn't failed once! I was very surprised at how thin the stranded wire was for the zero plate.

[bleeth]

I did consider a possible wiring degradation at the last section, particularly since it has been accidentally snipped and then spliced, but eliminated that as a cause based on 2 things:
1. I have spent too many years splicing low and high voltage wires on boats and buildings without problems.
2. The problem poked up it's ugly head virtually immediately after software/Alpha upgrade and had never done it previously.

I should have a chance to play around with it this weekend and plan on doing a severe cleaning of the plate per Bob's suggestion and verifying connections and grounding, as well as a few other typical maintenance items and see how it goes from there before I start monkeying with changing software version again.

[adrianm]

Interesting aside to the issues people have with the latest software.

Today I've cleared out the area I keep my PC in and tidied up the wiring. As I've read several times that the hub isn't needed for 3.8.x I took it off and plugged straight into the PC.

Big mistake. I couldn't get more than five to twenty minutes of cutting done before the yellow "lost USB communications/ShopBot no longer recognized" box appeared and everything froze. Turning the control box off and on plus rebooting the PC was the only way to recover.

The ShopBot was always visible in the USBView.

After a couple of hours of that I put the hub back in and I'm now partway through the 4th sheet of the day without any problems.

[srwtlc]

If your plates were dirty and not making contact, you'd have damaged bits and zero plates as the routine will keep driving the tool down into the plate until the drivers fault out or you have lost enough steps to run out of commanded move distance. It would be no different than running the routine and not placing the plate under the tool, it would drive it into the table. The fact that it doesn't do that, means that it's making contact. This goes deeper than that.

I'd like to see those of you that see this happen repeatably try something. If you are running 3.8.xx, open the zzero.sbp file (in your C:\SbParts folder) and place the following at the top of the file...

'Tap the Z plate to the tool to continue
PAUSE UNTIL 1,1

If you are running 3.6.xx, you'll have to place this at the top of the file...

'Hit OK, then tap the Z plate to the tool to continue. Quit to exit.
PAUSE

WAITHERE:
&TEST=%(51)
IF &TEST=1 THEN GOTO START
PAUSE 1
GOTO WAITHERE

START:

Note that for this one there is a 1 second pause in the loop. You may have to hold the plate in contact for more than just a quick tap.

I've had this happen numerous times, but not as much lately and just had it happen again for the first time in quit a while. I'm adding this test to my routine to see if it happens again. Since I know that my input 1 circuit has always made connection, I seldom if ever test tap it before running the routine. I'm not testing the connection with this, but am testing a theory.

[PNast]

Just posting an update. Still have not had any Z-Zero failure since soldering the alligator clip and I do a lot of bit changes. I have included pictures of my setup. I screwed the zero plate to a scrap piece of poplar that is secured to the table, this has been zeroing very accurately between bit changes. I also clean the zero plate with an alcohol wipe once a day. Hope this helps those having Z-Zero problems. -Paul

[David Iannone]

I am using the latest SB software as I upgraded my 2001 PRT about a month ago to the 4g board upgrade. I use the same old zero plate that came with machine. I have had no glitches at all. I used to get occaitional communication error. But have not even got that after upgrade. I use an old old win xp desktop with nothing but sb control on it and use a thumb drive to feed it files.

I never do windows update either. I know windows is not supporting win xp but I figured that didn't matter to me since I don't update it and I don't even have antivirus loaded.