new spindle with quick change collet

[Ajcoholic]

Saw this in FD&M magazine - going to be shown at the IWF show.

A spindle with a tool free, quick change collet.

http://www.1888pressrelease.com/hf103/aggregate-heads/benz-inc-introduces-new-products-at-the-2014-iwf-tradeshow-pr-522602.html

[GlenP]

Hey Andrew. Hope all is well up north of me here in lower Ontario. Friggin warm one right now. That spindle and collet looks nice. Going to have to do some reading on that one. I can't get away for the show.

Cheers and Happy Canada Day to all my Canadian Botters.

[GeneMpls]

Saw this in FD&M magazine - going to be shown at the IWF show.

A spindle with a tool free, quick change collet.

http://www.1888pressrelease.com/hf103/aggregate-heads/benz-inc-introduces-new-products-at-the-2014-iwf-tradeshow-pr-522602.html

Here is a google on the collet (I think only the collet?):

... adds that the concept allows users to save money by having one single aggregate body and many adaptors for a few hundred dollars each, rather than buying more aggregates for thousands. The basic system sells for about $6,900, and adapters range from $250 to $350 a piece.

A 'little' rich for my thin old blood. Gene

[scottp55]

EEK! should have ten letters! I suddenly love my wrenches. That buys a lot of tools if you're not a dedicated CNC shop.:)

[Brady Watson]

For a few bucks more you can get a real ATC if you know where to look. Unless you are running production day in and day out, there really isn't enough time savings over manual changing to justify the buy in. If you make the same parts day in & day out with multiple toolchanges per part, then the savings really does add up & an ATC is well worth it. Two independent Zs are great if you only need 2 tools & pneumatically actuated 'sister' tools are a great option if you use 3 tools. There are LOTS of options out there...especially if you like to tinker & aren't afraid to blaze your own trail.

-B

[Ajcoholic]

Hey guys - it is a brand new system, not even shown until August. No one really knows yet what it can and cannot do. I prefer to keep an open mind and look at new tech when I can, and you never know it might make enough of a difference to invest the $$.

If you are buying new (and personally I wont be buying a used spindle of any type) it is between 1/2 and 1/3 the cost of a comparable ATC spindle - and no need for the space on the table (which for instance I dont have).

Just thought I'd show it here since I read about it in a magazine the other day and it seemed interesting.

My idea is to have a full size machine and ATC in the future. But for now, spending a fraction of that to get a fast changing tool without having to re zero intrigues me.

I just spent another $40,000 on my shop this summer. Probably wont be buying anything else for a bit until I get my finances in shape again. But, this spindle is something I will be looking at in Atlanta for sure.

AJC

[harryball]

I'll be taking a look at that too. It seemed such a simple thing, but changing bits and re-zeroing isn't fun. If there is some way to fix the zero for each tool to make quick changes, they might be on to something.

I'll have to stop by and see that.

[davidp]

Hi Andrew,

Good find. Looks like an interesting piece of gear.

There are some on the forum who decry an ATC but in my humble opinion it is the best investment we have made.

Look at the economics. It cost a bit over $30,000 to retrofit an ATC on to an older PRT Alpha in 2010, but it has repaid itself many times over since.

With a manual change, it takes around 5 minutes to change a tool, re-zero and then load the next file, that is if you are standing there ready for the change. Invariably you are in the middle of something else so the real time taken is more like 10 minutes sometimes 15 minutes between changes. In our business the files we used to run pre ATC had 2 or three tool changes and that was after making compromises, using bits that did a reasonable job but could be used for two or three different toolpaths. So counting the set up with the original bit, tool changing alone took between 15 to 30 minutes per sheet. We were averaging around 9 sheets per day. On our best day it took 14 hours to cut 12 sheets.

With the ATC a tool change takes 45 seconds from the end of one cut, change the tool, and start the next cut. We now use the optimal tool for each tool path, we can use a rougher for the first pass, which results in much faster overall cutting time per sheet. We now average around 5 tools per sheet. On our best day we managed to cut 28 sheets of 16 mm MDF, admittedly it was a 12 hour day, but the tool changer has almost doubled our production. We are now able to take on larger more complex projects for which we get paid accordingly. The other hidden benefit is that we no longer have to stand around waiting for a toolpath to finish to change tools, thus we are more productive.

The Benz Spindle you are talking about could be setup so that all of your tools are zeroed of before you commence and the cut file would call for a tool change as required, therefore you zero your tool once at the beginning of the job and that would have to save time.

A question, how long would it take to pay for $7000 if you could cut an extra sheet per day, for no extra work? Methinks not long.

Regards,
David
Sydney

[cabnet636]

HSD and Columbo have always had Push button releases for spindles (basically an atc with out a rack) or am I missing something ?

[kevin]

I think processional the way to go is two z .Dedicated boring machine for shelf holes you can find 3,000 to 5,000 great for a closet company .You could do 40 sheets a day or 2 kitchens a day

[kevin]

I forgot to mention that we make draw boxes the same time as are kitchens with slow his down average kitchen 15 draws which slow us down those sheets take an extra 10 minutes compared to a average size cabinet

[scottp55]

James, I only found push button release on 5hp and above HSD's. Is that the case?
That does look like a tremendous time saver.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDaCUMNQ-M0

[jerry_stanek]

Midwest rapid makes an ATC Porter Cable unit. Back at one of the camp Shopbot get together at John Forney's he was using one.

[khaos]

Midwest rapid makes an ATC Porter Cable unit. Back at one of the camp Shopbot get together at John Forney's he was using one.

Midwest's outfit is $3G including a modified porter cable. Looks like you lose an inch and a half to a quarter of Z though.

[jerry_stanek]

couldn't you just mount the router a little higher in the bracket

[Ajcoholic]

For me, going from a 4 HP spindle to a PC router (even fully ATC) is never going to be an option. Not even a little bit.

With an ATC spindle, even though it appears you can rig some to be manually changed, doesn't that still require (a) an ATC spindle which is still more $$ and (b) an air source and (c) expensive adapters in the $300 to $400 range.

Not that I know much more than anyone else who has taken a closer look at this new spindle, but for those who haven't, it looks like the smaller (and I am assuming cheaper) adapters are released simply and quickly, require no air source and the spindle is not a hole through type like an ATC spindle. Lighter weight - requiring no mods to the Z axis like a pneumatic assist, etc.

Again, I know options exist for various other quick change tools. But, like I have stated with the Buddy, a full ATC isn't going to happen. Also, simple is sometimes better. I'm going to keep an open mind. And this type of thing is exactly the reason I fly from way up here, to places like Atlanta to see what is new and exciting in the world of woodworking tools.

[Ger21]

With an ATC spindle, even though it appears you can rig some to be manually changed, doesn't that still require (a) an ATC spindle which is still more $$ and (b) an air source and (c) expensive adapters in the $300 to $400 range.

a) yes, but I don't think the Solidfix spindle will be a whole lot cheaper than a smaller (5HP) ATC spindle. You can also get Chinese ATC spindles for around $5K or less.

b) yes, ATC's need air.

c) ISO 25 or ISO30 toolholders can be found for ~$125 each. I just bought some HSK63 tool holders for $180 each.
Looking at the Benz website, I can't imagine that their toolholders will be less than $100 each. Their proprietary, and not all that simple.

I would think you can get into an ATC spindle for very similar money to what this Benz system will ultimately cost. But I could be wrong. Be sure to post any info you find out.
I wish my boss would send me to IWF. :(

[bleeth]

Let me know what you think when you check out the real thing Andrew. I've been going back and forth between hanging a 2nd small spindle on an actuator off the front of my 5HP spindle or trying to put together an ATC for quite a while and this could be a great middle road.
And although lots of folks without spindles don't understand why a router isn't good enough, I'm way passed even discussing that one!

[Ajcoholic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4TK57ajEZI

[Mark Farris]

I love my bot, but have to wonder why Shopbots ATC spindle package costs 15k? I don't really have an idea what all is involved, but it seems you could get the spindle and tool holders for much less than 15k, so what else is included that runs the cost to upgrade that high? An ATC would be great, but I would be happy with a push button change spindle. I'll check it out with you Andrew.
Mark