Off Center

[pappybaynes]

I'll attempt to attach some photos - you will see that the stained coaster which was a sample for the customer looks pretty good...as opposed to the other picture which shows the rope board uneven in width, the vcarved letters and anchor are very shaky. The only thing done between the sample and the others is that i finally replaced my sacrificial board with a new one, and milled it flat...the sample was done as a single and the others are 4 on a board. Help!

[gc3]

looks like blank might have moved also i would use spiral ramp for cut out

[steve_g]

The anchors look like mine did when I had a setscrew loose on a pinion gear…
SG

[pappybaynes]

The anchors look like mine did when I had a setscrew loose on a pinion gear…
SG
Yep, that was it! 2 out of 3 where loose! Thank you!
Dick

[pappybaynes]

just to be sure all was well, I did a sample and found it still to be a bit out of round...I did cut a circle - simply a cc 2" circle. Open to suggestions...

[pappybaynes]

Just to be sure, I pulled all the motors except the Z motor and checked lock screws on pinions...all tight...checked rollers, Z carriage, collets etc then put a board on the table and did a cut circle, 3" and a cut rectangle 3" sq - the circle is off and the square is dead on?????????

[steve_g]

Dick…
I’m curious what bit and speeds your using… Ramping would cause the gantry to slow down in the corners of the square and bit deflection might show more on a circle… (Grasping at straws here!)
SG

[gc3]

ck photo 2...center left side... can clearly see deflection

[pappybaynes]

Roughing cut for rope - 0.125 tapered BN feed is 0.83 inches / sec @ 13.8 K rpm
Finish cut - 0.0625 tapered BN Feed is same as above
Pocket cut on inside of rope - 0.25 upcut 1.67 in / sec @ 10K rpm
V-carve name 60 deg - 1.67 in / sec @12 K rpm
Anchors - 60 deg profile cut - 1.67 in / sec @12 K rpm
Cut Out - 0.25 upcut 1.67 in / sec @ 10K rpm

These are the same bits, feeds and speeds are what I did on the first piece that I did for customer approval...

[shilala]

That's a mess.
I'm sure you probably thought of it, but I'd reset the machine, reboot, and maybe even clean out and reinstall sb3. The reason I say this is because it looks like there's some really weird communication going on, and it look very constant.
Consider changing your usb port, as well.
That's grasping, but it's where I'd start based on what you said about it going wonky all at once. I'd try another file that's not that one, too. Make something totally unrelated and see what the machine is doing.
I'd also grab the bottom end of your spindle and see if there's any play at all. Power the mavhine down and run the gantry back and forth, left and right, and your z up and down by hand and see if you feel anything other than a nice, fluid movement.
At least this way you'll get the obvious stuff out of the way.
Make sure the usb cable didn't get knicked or pinched or mouse chewed. I'd probably change it out after checking all this other stuff.

[jerry_stanek]

Check you X steppers I had an problem where one came unplugged and was giving me the same look

[MogulTx]

What control box do you have? Is it the computer style box, with the old drivers? ( This would lead to further questions- that basically would be designed to get you to figure out if you had blown a Zeiner diode (spelling?) This will make your stepper motors run poorly and or not at all. It can happen from static discharge or electrical spikes in your service, etc.

To see if one of the motors is affected, pull your x axis motors and set them to run on a LOOONG jog so you can check them and see if they both turn steadily and turn without making any noise. Then reinstall, carefully seating them deeply into the rack and do "air cuts" and listen for noise. Run only one axis at a time so you can isolate the issue. It is likely an X axis motor, because if the Y was dead, you would get nothing for movement in the Y... with one dead X motor, you can still get X axis motion from the other motor- but it will look awful.

And before you mess with any of that: Have you, with power on, pushed and pulled on your y carriage? At both ends? To see if you have any slop in them? This is a way to examine your wear of and seating of the pinion gears for your X motors. If they are not properly seated into the rack, they could have significant slop and that will cause you to have wonky cuts. You can do the same with your router/spindle carriage to see that it is seated well.

[MogulTx]

If it is a diode, and you are not running a fourth axis, you can steal the one from that part of the board and replace the one that is bad. Then order a number of them on ebay for $5. It will ship out of Hong Kong or something- and take 8-10 days- but it will be the best $5 you have spent in a long while.

Then install the new diode into your fourth axis portion of the board when you have a slow day and the inclination to open it up again... ( or when you want to use your indexer!)

[pappybaynes]

What control box do you have? Is it the computer style box, with the old drivers? ( This would lead to further questions- that basically would be designed to get you to figure out if you had blown a Zeiner diode (spelling?) This will make your stepper motors run poorly and or not at all. It can happen from static discharge or electrical spikes in your service, etc.

To see if one of the motors is affected, pull your x axis motors and set them to run on a LOOONG jog so you can check them and see if they both turn steadily and turn without making any noise. Then reinstall, carefully seating them deeply into the rack and do "air cuts" and listen for noise. Run only one axis at a time so you can isolate the issue. It is likely an X axis motor, because if the Y was dead, you would get nothing for movement in the Y... with one dead X motor, you can still get X axis motion from the other motor- but it will look awful.

And before you mess with any of that: Have you, with power on, pushed and pulled on your y carriage? At both ends? To see if you have any slop in them? This is a way to examine your wear of and seating of the pinion gears for your X motors. If they are not properly seated into the rack, they could have significant slop and that will cause you to have wonky cuts. You can do the same with your router/spindle carriage to see that it is seated well.
Yes, I have the computer style control box...so is this diode easy to change? Is it obvious what it looks like etc? I don't believe there is significant slop...I did a test cut tonight after I reinstalled SB3 and it was much better, but it is still obvious that something is not right...

[MogulTx]

Dick,

One thing: The gantry should be ROCK SOLID. With the power on, you should not be able to budge the gantry. If you can, you may have loose pinions ( still) or you may need new ones- but they do not fail suddenly! SO it should not be that they suddenly wore out. There MAY still be loose grub screws. I BELIEVE there are two screws per pinion gear. Make sure both are TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT.

DIODES: They are easy to replace. But I do not have that style board anymore. I sold my older machine and have upgraded twice since then. So, let me describe it in general so you can get the lay of the land.

Before we do that: did you take the motors off the machine and run them to try to figure out if one of them is glitchy? Did either of them sound rough? If so, that is the one you want to focus on. If they did NOT sound rough- you should probably be suspecting the grub screws on those pinions...

once pinions are ruled out: If you look at the board, near the plug in that goes to the X motors, you will see a moderately sized diode (black cylinder with bands on it- I don't recall the colors of bands on it, but those are a marking that tell the observer the characteristics of that particular diode.) But it should stand out to you. And if you send me a photo of that section of the board I can point it out to you.

Then all you do is unsolder the one from the 4th axis and the one from the suspect motor and solder the unused one into your board. And you are done. Replace the board. Hook up your connections. Do a test run. If she functions like a champ, order diodes. If she is still rough- you may have repaced the diode to the wrong position. With how well the machine is cutting, I would say that it would be nearly impossible that you would have a partial fault in both X circuits.

Send me a PM if you need more from me. I read here most days, but every day and not throughout the day.

Best of luck to you.

Monty

[pappybaynes]

Monty,
Have not checked the motors yet...just did the SB3 control software...work a day job and did not have time for all last night...will do so this evening and keep you posted. Appreciated the input from you and everyone else on the forum.
Dick

[MogulTx]

Dick

I know that "lost" feeling when the machine is not operating the way you want it to, and you don't know how to get it back to proper function. SB Support is excellent. If you can take some time and get them on the phone with you, they may have a specific set of tests that lead quickly to the proper conclusion. We operators are saavy, but not like those people.

And one note on the pinions and grub screws. "tight" is a relative term. I would say that once you have the allen wrench into the grub screw, you will want to exert a fair amount of force. And you have to be cautious that you are fully engaged so you don't risk rounding out the hex recess or the wrench. I realized that I wrote "tight tight tight" and thought... "he might attempt to over tighten. At least give him a little cautionary words..." So- there it is. You don't want to add to your concerns!

Best Regards,

Monty

[pappybaynes]

I powered up and attempted to move each side of the carriage - the left side +Y did not budge, the right -Y moved maybe a half an inch+- in each direction (didn’t measure it, but it was decided moving). I pull that motor, checked the set screws (they were tight) and reinstalled it making sure I had a good seat on the rack. Tightened it back up and tested again while powered up - same results. It showed signs of wear on the inside of the pinion - not even across the entire surface. So I guess I need to replace it - does ShopBot have these??? How much are they...should I replace both sides?? Thank you everyone and tech support...I so love the forum!
Dick

[bleeth]

Dick: If it's moving that much when you are "powered up" than that motor is not on. To verify un-plug the other motor and then power up and see if the gantry moves (push very slowly). If it does than there is your issue. This could be a lot of things from a loose connection to a blown driver.
Start by carefully checking all connections for that motor.

Yes:SB does have new pinions and you should never do just one.

[pappybaynes]

Dave,
wouldn't the SB3 screen indicate that the motor was not connected??

[MogulTx]

AHA! SO we are getting very close now. A quick call to SB to do any additional sleuthing....?

Probably the diode. As Dave points out, it could be the driver that is also on the board.

It is likely that SB will ask you to remove the board and send to them for testing. Don't know what the wait or the charge is for that. As I recall they were VERY reasonable when I sent a board in about 18 months ago. I had had a lightning strike and it fried a few components in my box. I mean- I had lightning strike a tree within 20 or so feet of my building. I think it cost me as much for FedEx overnight (two ways) as it did to get the board repaired.

Basically, it sounds like you are not engaging that motor well or maybe at all. And that end of the machine is just dragging behind the work of the other motor. THAT's what made your quality go to poop. A minor fix and you should be OK.

I do not think the board would come "populated" with a driver for the 4th axis. If the diode does not fix the problem, you would definitely need to ask SB about that driver.

To figure out which x driver circuit is your problem, trace your wire from the stepper, back to the box. Touch it and look at it on EVERY inch. You need to do this to see if there are any nicks or crushes in your wire to this motor. --something may have gotten crushed into it while you were working. Or maybe someone has been around the machine and dropped something onto the wire? ( Are yours run on the floor? if so, you could have stepped on debris that cut into the wire?) Check it ALL the way back to your box. Check the tightness of the connections. Make sure the wires do not look pulled out of either end. WAGO connectors are well seated...?

You almost have this problem figured out and fixed. You can do it.

[2006prt]

dick

I have a driver and motor sitting in my garage (7.2:1 alpha) if you want to try swapping some parts and you need to get the job done asap.

todd

[pappybaynes]

Todd, not sure yet what has cause it not to have power...may be able to determine that tonight when I open the control box up...is that the motor I have??? I don't really know. So I will definitely be interested in talking to you about your parts if needed. Thanks
Dick

[pappybaynes]

AHA! SO we are getting very close now. A quick call to SB to do any additional sleuthing....?

Probably the diode. As Dave points out, it could be the driver that is also on the board.

It is likely that SB will ask you to remove the board and send to them for testing. Don't know what the wait or the charge is for that. As I recall they were VERY reasonable when I sent a board in about 18 months ago. I had had a lightning strike and it fried a few components in my box. I mean- I had lightning strike a tree within 20 or so feet of my building. I think it cost me as much for FedEx overnight (two ways) as it did to get the board repaired.

Basically, it sounds like you are not engaging that motor well or maybe at all. And that end of the machine is just dragging behind the work of the other motor. THAT's what made your quality go to poop. A minor fix and you should be OK.

I do not think the board would come "populated" with a driver for the 4th axis. If the diode does not fix the problem, you would definitely need to ask SB about that driver.

To figure out which x driver circuit is your problem, trace your wire from the stepper, back to the box. Touch it and look at it on EVERY inch. You need to do this to see if there are any nicks or crushes in your wire to this motor. --something may have gotten crushed into it while you were working. Or maybe someone has been around the machine and dropped something onto the wire? ( Are yours run on the floor? if so, you could have stepped on debris that cut into the wire?) Check it ALL the way back to your box. Check the tightness of the connections. Make sure the wires do not look pulled out of either end. WAGO connectors are well seated...?

You almost have this problem figured out and fixed. You can do it.
OK, so I ran home at lunch and pulled the left motor, powered up and the carriage would roll pretty much freely...so no power to the motor. I traced the wire back to the control box, checked for any kinks, cracks etc - there were none, marked the wire and then had to wolf down lunch and head back to the office - will take the cover off the box and see if I can find any loose wires tonight. I have lined up John Limoli's machine for Saturday to finish this product if necessary - his shop is just 5-6 miles from me...I'll say it again, this forum and tech support are great!!

[MogulTx]

OK Good sleuthing on your part - BUT- you don't want to intentionally "roll" your carriages while they are plugged in. A stepper motor will generate power back into your board and can blow your zeiner diodes and or driver. To check engagement you could push on your gantry, but one should not roll them while engaged.

If the wire is in good shape and is well connected at both ends, it sounds like you are down to diode or driver. I hope it is the diode. it will be up and running in 20 minutes if it is the diode (and you can unsolder and resolder). If it is a driver you will have to work through shopbot to get a replacement.

Keep after it.

Monty

[bleeth]

Monty is likely spot on. If you have the gecko (4G) drivers thay are easy to get from SB and even direct from manufacturer (YOU HAVE to tell them a couple things about what you have so have your control box open when you talk to them. If you have a pre 4-g, as it seems at this point, I think I still have my old one around and have some good drivers in it, but am not sure. I may have gotten rid of it a while ago. It would be up in the shop attic.
If you want to get my attention quicker than when I happen to sign on right click my name and send e-mail or pm.
Also what he said about a motor blowing a driver when rolling by hand is why I said roll it slow!
The SB3 software doesn't see a motor or driver fault (unfortunately) on standards.
BTW-if you take the opportunity to spend some extra bucks and get a new 4g, if they still have them, you'll love the increased jog, cut and smoothness. The only problem is that in no time you'll start thinking about reworking your gantry to take full advantage of what they can do.

[pappybaynes]

OK Good sleuthing on your part - BUT- you don't want to intentionally "roll" your carriages while they are plugged in. A stepper motor will generate power back into your board and can blow your zeiner diodes and or driver. To check engagement you could push on your gantry, but one should not roll them while engaged.

If the wire is in good shape and is well connected at both ends, it sounds like you are down to diode or driver. I hope it is the diode. it will be up and running in 20 minutes if it is the diode (and you can unsolder and resolder). If it is a driver you will have to work through shopbot to get a replacement.

Keep after it.

Monty
I did not mean to indicate that I "rolled" it ...I simply pushed it a smidgen and knew right away is was not powered up. I opened the control box and the "unit" which may be what you call a diode, in front of the X2 connector when powered up had a red reflective light on top when the rest had green reflective lights...

[MogulTx]

OK. So the diode is only about 3/8" long x 1/4" wide and is soldered directly to the board. There are no lights on the diode. It is a device that conditions the power heading toward the motor.

It sounds like you have a light on the board or on the motor driver. I would take a picture of the board, and see if you can make it show up with the red light. Then email that to tech support at shopbot. Include the information on the tag for the control box ( There will be a number that tells them what the build out for this machine was. It will instantly tell them what drivers you are using, etc.) I don't know if that is a driver error or what. But I would suspect that ShopBot will be able to tell in a phone call or two. ( They will ask you about motor function, symptoms, etc.) I do not remember there being a red light on my board or a driver. But the machine I did this repair upon was a PRT - which is an older style machine than you are working with, and may have had a slightly different build-out. Send a PM to Dave Rosenbleeth, too. He indicated he had an older set up that he upgraded- so he may have good insight on what you are dealing with.

[pappybaynes]

Thanks Mo...tech wants me to plug the X1 to the X2 slot and power up and see if the red light still comes on. Now when I said "light", there is nothing sticking up out of the unit...it is a clear lens that is flat on the unit and the light must be inside...
Dick

[MogulTx]

Good point. That isolates it to the driver or board and not to the motor itself. (But I don't know of many steppers that go belly up. It is usually something else.) What it also does test your cable going to the motor. If it works on the other driver, then it is an ok cable and an OK motor. Then on to the driver and board... I don't know if you can swap the drivers easily or not, but if you can and the error follows the driver, then it indicates a driver only issue. If the error stays with the X2 portion of the board, it indicates a problem in the board. ( Could still be a pesky zeiner diode, but it sounds like you have a slightly different set up than mine was, so I guess you need to use Support to solve it for you! And they are great at that!)

Monty

[bleeth]

Turns out to be a bad driver. Dick actually has a Gecko (4-G) box. Driver Model G203V.
My Gecko controller has 202's and was not SB built so there would be some other changes needed to use one of them in his box. SB had a bit of modification done to the Geckos for their use as I recall.
I would suggest simply getting one from SB or Gecko direct as noted before. They are not that expensive and it's an easy swap out. If you contact Gecko direct be sure and tell them the unit came from SB. Best to have serial number (assuming one is on it) handy as well.

[pappybaynes]

Turns out to be a bad driver. Dick actually has a Gecko (4-G) box. Driver Model G203V.
My Gecko controller has 202's and was not SB built so there would be some other changes needed to use one of them in his box. SB had a bit of modification done to the Geckos for their use as I recall.
I would suggest simply getting one from SB or Gecko direct as noted before. They are not that expensive and it's an easy swap out. If you contact Gecko direct be sure and tell them the unit came from SB. Best to have serial number (assuming one is on it) handy as well.
Thanks Dave!

[jerry_stanek]

you may want to check with Gecko as they have replaced drivers that are quite old before or they may be able to repair it

[pappybaynes]

you may want to check with Gecko as they have replaced drivers that are quite old before or they may be able to repair it
Thanks Jerry, I'll check into that...
Dick

[pappybaynes]

Installed new driver, fired up controller...got power to all drives, but when I went to do a Z - zero the bit touched the plate and went up and down about a .25" and kept doing it...until I hit the spacebar and then the Z traveled all the way till it hit the top...the input #4 was blinking red!!! with "stop" above the number...what's going on???
Thanks Dick
rgbayneswoodworking@comcast.net

[bleeth]

Did you disconnect your various accessory wires before changing out the driver? Or loosen one or more by accident while doing it?
I would say they were not re-connected correctly. Make sure they are all in the right locations and all tight.

[MogulTx]

Dave

He reloaded SB3 before changing the driver. He may have a glitch with SB3. He was unable to run the machine after loading the software. This is probably the first effort to run it, and his values settings may be funky. Someone in the group probably remembers how to reset all of that...

[srwtlc]

If you reloaded SB3, check to see what your 'Switch #4 Stop Type' is set as. If you have an older PRT, they used an 'NRM Open' setting and the settings for a 4G use 'NRM Closed'. Check this with VN

[pappybaynes]

If you reloaded SB3, check to see what your 'Switch #4 Stop Type' is set as. If you have an older PRT, they used an 'NRM Open' setting and the settings for a 4G use 'NRM Closed'. Check this with VN
It's a PRS (2008) - Support says to reset default settings in Utilities...

[pappybaynes]

It's a PRS (2008) - Support says to reset default settings in Utilities...
Here's what I sent to tech support: Here is what I wrote to tech support: The saga continues and I am getting more depressed by the minute…did as you suggested and afterward they did not recognize each other…I shut down the controller, rebooted the computer, still the same…removed the old software and installed the latest version, attempted to update firmware put got error message “Control Card Not Found! Is Control Box ON? NOTE: This Version of Shopbot Software does not support Control Cards earlier than V201” The page on the Shopbot site says, CURRENT SOFTWARE: For PRS ShopBots (11/2007 to current {includes most PRS tools}; and any ShopBots updated to V2xx Control Cards)?????????????????????

Dick

[bleeth]

Dick:

See my suggestions below. Please check out what I said before getting into anymore software modifications.
After that if you still have no joy: Since you "reloaded" SB3, did you reload the same version you had been using or load a newer version?
If you loaded a newer version (a common suggestion by SB: "You should load our newest control software"), are you sure that you got the firmware updated properly? Frankly, the firmware update system is a little weird and it is easy to think that it was done correctly when in fact it wasn't.
Reloading in and of itself has caused some folks issues as some files apparently don't always overwrite smoothly or "residue" from older registry files causes problems and it takes an in depth wipe (more than just the usual "delete program" from the control panel software manager) to get it to run correctly again.
Some versions have had z-zeroing issues with some computers. One user will have no issues at all and another just can't get it to run right. These issues are in various versions of 3.8xx. Supposedly the latest version have fixed this but I'm still somewhat skeptical.
This really isn't the place to get into the discussion of trying to make the control software run on virtually any computer regardless of op system or version rather than SB just offering an operating computer that works, period, but it is a long standing debate that is regularly discussed elsewhere on the forum.

Dick: Dump the latest software. Re-load your favorite no problem older version. If you don't still have it let me know. I've got a bunch of them stashed.
Start at the beginning-check all the connections. Your problem was not software, it was hardware.

[pappybaynes]

Thanks Dave...I do not have the version I was using before...I wrote the number down, but can't find it!! Pretty sure is was a 3.6 ver...the only thing I did hardware wise was remove the first 2 drivers to get to the faulty 3rd driver...I then just moved the first two down the line so that when I receive the new one I could just have to install that one...they said that they were all alike...other than pulling the motors several times, that's it.
Dick

[bleeth]

Your current issue has nothing to do with the drivers. At this point, until you start "running around the table" I'll assume you did that install correctly. Are you very sure that you didn't disconnect or disturb the accessory leads (prox switches, z-plate leads, e-stop, etc.) When you made that swap out? I know (although I don't remember which ones) there is one position that gets a few different leads put in it's really easy to think it is fine but have one loose and only making an intermittent connection. Being sure the ground wires are tightly screwed in is also an easy one to think is right when it isn't.
On SB's software download site is 3.6.46. I'm pretty sure this is a very stable version for you. If you have checked out the wiring connections at your control box and still have a z-zero issue then try an uninstall of 3.8 and load this one. Make sure you get rid of all the SB files. On this I am NOT the tech expert on where to find them. It is general info from others I have gotten privately that I'm passing along. When you load the software, make sure you do a firmware update as the 3.8 firmware doesn't play nice with 3.6.

If after you do all this if you still have no joy send me a PM with more direct contact info so we can chat the old fashioned way.

[pappybaynes]

I can't thank everyone enough, Jeremy in tech support, local Shopbotters Paul Zank, Todd Shilman and John Limoli, the countless people who contributed to the resolution of this problem. Gene, Steve, Scott S, Scott P, Scott W, Jerry, Monty, Dave, and Todd. This would have been solved quicker if I didn't have a day job...got to work on that! To bad our politicians can't solve problems this way!!

For the record, I deleted SB3 control software both in the control panel and in C/Program Files/shopbot...installed 3.6.44 control software, the firmware etc and did a test cut of a circle, which if you look at the first post was where I had an irregular circle - tonight we had success!!
Thank you
Dick Baynes

[scottp55]

Yeah!!:) 10 letters