Setting up a school

[genek]

Several on the Shop Bot forum know that Tina and I have decided to build a building where Classes can be taught. We were asked to keep a blog going on our progress. We could have expanded our shop In Pike County Kentucky. However, The shops location is to far off the beaten Path, and is very limited to access and other things to do.

This Past week Tina and I acquired the property that is behind our Home. We Got the Property way below the Market Value (we got it for a song and a dance so to speak).. We have quotes on the building, and are waiting on quotes for the 6" slab of concrete. As soon as those quotes are in we will be posting a Kick Start Page.

I would like all of my friends here on the forum to Let me know what type of classes, what you think should be in the class rooms, (we plan on a large format Monitor and a drop down projection screen. The class as well as the shop area will be heated and cooled.) We are hoping that companies like Shop Bot, Vector Art, Aspire, Art Cam, Sign companies, and others will use the class room and shop to help promote cnc and wood working.


We are open to all suggestions, and welcome Your input.

The location of the new shop and school is close to Many other locations that your family could enjoy while you are taking classes. Just to mention some of the sites that could be used as a vacation: Red River Gorge, Natural Bridge State Park (these are within 15 minutes drive) Fort Boonesborough State Park, Waveland State Park, Old Town Berea, Berea Artisan center, Renfro Valley Ky Folk Art Museum, (these are within 45 minute drive. There are more and other things to do like Elk watching.
The school will be 45 miles off of I-75, 20 Miles off of I-64 and about 47 Minutes from the Lexington Air Port.

We wanted the Class rooms to be close to attractions that you and your family could do. This way if you are using your vacation time, you and your family can still have a vacation.

Please Give me feed back This is for all of us to learn and to be able to do things.

When I have posted on the Kick Starter site I will let you know and will keep all informed as to the status.

[myxpykalix]

Are you sure you are required to have a 6" slab of concrete for this building? Usually the footers are thicker but the slabs we've poured for houses (which i suspect may be heavier then the type of building you are going to construct...maybe pole barn?) won't nearly be as heavy.

You might want to incorporate a hot water heated floor using solar or one of those woodburning whole house stoves. You may even consider a hot water heated floor over top the concrete in plywood.
I know when i built my shop i opted for a wood floor because in the winter concrete is like standing on ice cubes and it is harder on your feet standing on it all day.
Also unless you insulate those pole barns in the winter they are like refrigerators. If someone is going to be coming to a class all day you will want to make them comfortable. good luck:D

[dlcw]

Gene,

When I built my 40' x 80' shop I used radiant floor heating. The slab is fiberglass reinforced 4" thick (avoid rebar) over 4" pink foam over compacted sand and gravel. I have never had any problems with the floor even with a bunch of heavy equipment on it. Some moves around, most don't. Just make sure they make the floor level and smooth. Power troweling left a nice smooth surface that is real easy to sweep. One guy did a little bit of hand troweling and the floor is rough in that spot and doesn't sweep as easily as the rest.

I used and electric boiler as electricity is only 3.4 cents per KWH. Priced propane but it was much more expensive.

A beauty of radiant is it does not move the dust around like a forced air system. There are already enough forces at working moving dust around. Another plus is your feet stay warm and you only heat about 6' high. No need in heating any higher then that - wasted energy.

I would not do a dedicated wood shop any other way.

[genek]

The building is not going to be a Pole building. It is a metal Framed building. Local and state codes require certain thickness, where the building is going to be used for class rooms, I had to meet a Tornado code, which stoped us from doing a pole building. Had we gone for a block building we would have had to put re-bar and pour concrete into the blocks and that was driving the cost way up. The frame work of the building required 6 inch slab. The over all wind requirement was 120 miles per hour. Had I kept my mouth shut when going thru the zoning commission, I could have gotten by with the pole building. Other than the wall that divides the class rooms from the shop area (which will be studded up with 2x4) all the studding for the outside walls will be metal. This type of building requires a crane to set the structure. We had to meet a snow load equal to 4 foot of snow. Even though we have only had one snow that was 3.5 feet. This changed the pitch and the size of the steel being used for the roof.

[genek]

Gene,

When I built my 40' x 80' shop I used radiant floor heating. The slab is fiberglass reinforced 4" thick (avoid rebar) over 4" pink foam over compacted sand and gravel. I have never had any problems with the floor even with a bunch of heavy equipment on it. Some moves around, most don't. Just make sure they make the floor level and smooth. Power troweling left a nice smooth surface that is real easy to sweep. One guy did a little bit of hand troweling and the floor is rough in that spot and doesn't sweep as easily as the rest.

I used and electric boiler as electricity is only 3.4 cents per KWH. Priced propane but it was much more expensive.

A beauty of radiant is it does not move the dust around like a forced air system. There are already enough forces at working moving dust around. Another plus is your feet stay warm and you only heat about 6' high. No need in heating any higher then that - wasted energy.

I would not do a dedicated wood shop any other way.
Don will check in to that. Insurance in this are will not allow any form of wood burning stove even if it is outside. But floor heat sounds good. Why not the re-bar. Both the class rooms and the shop will have air conditioning. I plan on having a slick floor. The floor in the shop was hand troweled and it is hard to get the dust up.

[chiloquinruss]

Some additional ideas. RUss

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/09/29/makerspace-vocademy-brings-back-shop-class-atmosphere/

[genek]

Some additional ideas. RUss

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/09/29/makerspace-vocademy-brings-back-shop-class-atmosphere/
Thanks Russ. will look into that.

[bleeth]

Eugene:

If I ever got the opportunity to layout my own shop from the ground up I would be sure and start by laying out my complete shop plan in CAD with all major equipment placed to scale. The object is to bury as many electrical, vacuum, and dust runs as I can. Compressor, DC, and CNC hold down pump would be outside the shop area in a sound insulated area. I remeber when Norm did this on This Old many years ago. I would have a wood floor even if code required a slab by raising it on joists and use the space for my runs. Beats the clutter from overhead and the noise levels all to heck. From experience I can tell you the wood floor is so much more pleasant on the feet to spend all day on it is amazing. Insulation for the building is some of the best money you will ever spend. I "over-insulated" my house and my bills are 1/2 to 2/3 what all my neighbors are.

Natural light through high windows and/or skylights also is so much better than all artificial. Depending on the overall height of what you are doing if you put the classes up in a loft you are reducing your footprint and with an 18-20 foot floor to lid distance can still have plenty of useful space under the areas where the classes are and can plan the lower ceiling areas where it wouldn't interfere with stock movement/storage.
I do have a mental plan of the "retirement" shop" in which we build it first with an apartment upstairs on one end, high ceiling elsewhere, and then start the house!

[genek]

One of the other Things that we have been working on is to have someone teach classes to the spouses. We just got a Florist to confirm that she will teach Wreaths, and flower arrangements and a ceramic's Teacher that will teach ceramic's... This way the spouse can have something to do if they would like.
The florist is going to teach her class in her shop, the Ceramic's teacher will teach in the other class room, or in her shop.

One of the major things that Tina wanted me to do with this class was to find ways that the whole family could come, learn and have fun.

[dlcw]

Don will check in to that. Insurance in this are will not allow any form of wood burning stove even if it is outside. But floor heat sounds good. Why not the re-bar. Both the class rooms and the shop will have air conditioning. I plan on having a slick floor. The floor in the shop was hand troweled and it is hard to get the dust up.

With fiberglass in the mix, there is no need for the rebar. Besides, the rebar could interfere with the pex tubing used for the radiant floor. Could potentially damage it.

Yeap, I understand the hand trowel and rough floor issue. I can easily sweep my shop floor except the area that was hand troweled. That's a pain in the booty.

[dlcw]

When I built my shop I new I could not be a woodworker forever (old age, bad back, arthritis, other interests, etc.). With this in mind I didn't put any thing in my floor (outlets, ducting etc.) because my long term plan for my shop is to turn it into indoor climate controlled storage and rent the space out. Great for people with special collections, expensive furniture, etc. Things won't freeze in the winter and it stays cool even on 100+ degree days.

My eve walls are 5" thick structured insulated panels (SIP's) and my gable end walls are 6.5" thick SIP's. The building is as tight as can be. No air leaks. I have to keep windows open in the winter otherwise the air gets stale. My vaulted ceiling (16' from the floor) has 40" of blown in insulation. I have 5' tall windows all over the place. The lighting is florescent chroma correcting bulbs. Fixtures are 8' with 4 each 4' bulbs. The lighting is incredible with none of the weird effects that florescent bulbs normally give off. One thing I neglected to do was budget in replacement ballasts. All 16 fixtures are starting to have failing ballasts. Not bad after 7 years of service.

For electrical, I have 400 amp service with a 200 amp panel at each end of the building. I have 4-gang 110V 20amp and a single 220V 30amp (some are 50amp for larger equip) drop about every 6' all the way around the building with several outlets in the ceiling for air cleaners. Each 110v gang is on its own circuit and 220v outlets are on their own circuits. For equipment, power drops from overhead using LARGE extensions cords I made myself. All extensions cables and plugs are appropriately sized. Works great.

When I convert to indoor storage, I will keep the lighting intact but will disable (breaker panel) most of the 110v and 220v outlets to keep people from running up an electric bill.

[genek]

I questioned the 6" slab, was able to drop it down to 4" slab. boy did I get a surprise on the cost of pouring concrete. This bid is more than what all the steel and Material to do the outside walls would cost. I am going to check on Renting a Backhoe, and cost of Concrete and Look at pouring my own pad and footer. I Poured the pad on the shop that I have now.

What did any of you pay for concrete slabs. Don What was your cost on your slab.

[bleeth]

Eugene:

I found an on-line calculator that says it should be between 10K and 13K in your area including excavation, prep, steel, etc. on a site with moderate slope and soil. I have no idea how up to date it is but I do know this is one item that is well worth getting multiple quotes on. When we did pavers in our back yard a few years ago the quotes varied by as much as 140% for similar materials.

[jerry_stanek]

That price does seem high. You should need 30 yards of concrete for your floor. Even if the concrete is $100 a yard it should still be around $6500 There is no mention of footers in the estimate

[myxpykalix]

Eugene, here's how you can get your slab poured for next to nothing but it will take some time and won't be as pretty...a friend of mine did this.

Go down to your different concrete companies and talk to the the managers. When they have left over concrete from a load they have to do something with it. Offer them something in return for letting them bring it over and dumping into your form. They will do it gladly. My friend got a 200 foot long 3" thick driveway poured for about $200.00 worth of Jim Beam.

The drawback is you have to pour it in small patches and it might take a month to get it done but it will be cheaper.

Also you could go down to your local technical education center and get kids in a Masons course to help for school credit.

[genek]

Eugene:

I found an on-line calculator that says it should be between 10K and 13K in your area including excavation, prep, steel, etc. on a site with moderate slope and soil. I have no idea how up to date it is but I do know this is one item that is well worth getting multiple quotes on. When we did pavers in our back yard a few years ago the quotes varied by as much as 140% for similar materials.

Dave do you have the link for the on line calculator? If so could you post it please.

[dlcw]

Don What was your cost on your slab.

I honestly don't remember Gene the total. It was poured back in 2007. I want to think it was about $175/yard plus. It was poured inside the foundation walls so no forms were needed. My foundation walls were 12" wide as specified by the SIP manufacturer. So my foundation walls were much more expensive then normal 8" required by local code.

But onsite labor time to put the SIPs in place was less then half of a site built structure. We had an 80' long wall, all windows openings precut, all electrical conduit already in the walls, in about 4.5 hours.

[Simops]

Eugene.....I like Dave's suggestions earlier on.....after years on concrete, next workshop build will definitely have timber floor. I like the idea of a 4" concrete slab (all that is required here) with a raised and levelled timber floor on top to run utilities through. Definitely will have DC and other noisy motors outside next time!!

That estimate you got is bout what you pay here and we have one of the highest costs in the world so should definitely be cheaper in the States compared to here!!

Best of luck with your venture!

Cheers

[bleeth]

There are actually 2 of them on Homewyse. I used the second as it gave more detailed options.

http://www.homewyse.com/services/cost_to_install_concrete_pad.html

http://www.homewyse.com/costs/cost_of_concrete_pads.html