4'x8' Sign

[rseeley13]

I was wondering if anyone can help me out with sign pricing as I am new to this. I have a customer that would like there logo and info Vcarved out on a Birch Plywood. They are providing the materials and also doing the painting, all I need to do is Vcarve out the design/letters/numbers. Here is what I have so far...

Details:
Run time on just one side is about 7 hours alone
Vcarving down to a depth of 1/4" on everything.
- 1/2" FEM (to pocket out tree) 11,000RPM @ 3.0IPS
- 1/4" FEM (to pocket out letter/numbers) 11,000RPM @ 3.0IPS
- 90 degree 1/2" Vbit to Vcarve the tree, letters, and numbers 13,000RPM @ 4.0IPS

This just seems like a long time to do something like this and really have no idea what to charge for something like this. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

ps-see picture for design

[rseeley13]

I was wondering if anyone can help me out with sign pricing as I am new to this. I have a customer that would like there logo and info Vcarved out on a Birch Plywood. They are providing the materials and also doing the painting, all I need to do is Vcarve out the design/letters/numbers. Here is what I have so far...

Details:
Run time on just one side is about 7 hours alone
Vcarving down to a depth of 1/4" on everything.
- 1/2" FEM (to pocket out tree) 11,000RPM @ 3.0IPS
- 1/4" FEM (to pocket out letter/numbers) 11,000RPM @ 3.0IPS
- 90 degree 1/2" Vbit to Vcarve the tree, letters, and numbers 13,000RPM @ 4.0IPS

This just seems like a long time to do something like this and really have no idea what to charge for something like this. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

ps-see picture for design

Forgot to mention that the 7 hours is for one side only, I have to do it twice since he is putting the back to back.

[Kyle Stapleton]

Seems very long.
What bot are you running?
What is the step over for the pocket?

[rseeley13]

PRS 48x96
3Hp Spindle
step over for pocketing bit is 40%

[rseeley13]

Sorry I meant to type 5 hours for one side of the sign, still seems long but maybe not.

[RossMosh]

I don't think plywood would be the best idea. Plywood has voids. You're carving a fair amount of the material. You are going to hit voids. Even if you upgrade to Baltic Birch plywood, you're going to have voids. I'd think about using a birch veneer on a good MDF or even better, assuming it's going inside, black PVC. That will save a ton of time painting. Also I'd V-carve all the text and pocket the tree. That would probably save an hour or two.

Pricing is very regional. Cost of living plays a huge role in pricing. I'd look at other tradesman and base my pricing off what they charge. Typically that ranges anywhere from $50-150/hr.

[Kyle Stapleton]

Ross is right about the plywood.
If you have an alpha I would be cut 5-6 ips min with thoughts big pockets and v carvings.
also I would do a step over of about 60%

[joe]

Ryan,

Here's my take on the project.

Keep in mind you'll need to limit the depth of the bit on the tree.
I'm estimating here but the tree looks to be about 4" at it's widest point. That would mean the Vbit would route that deep without setting a limit.

Without the tree, I'd estimate a carving time of about 30minute at most.

If you use the customers material, and if there's a mistake you'll be responsible for the loss. For that reason I seldom work myself into that situation.

This is a very easy project to accomplish but like the previous guys posting, the materials aren't the best choice.

[Regnar]

Another option is to profile trace the tree. Then you will not have to sand the pocket, you get to keep most of the rigidity from the material and the cut time goes way down. Tracing will allow them to cut a very nice mask for spraying paint.

[rseeley13]

I agree that the plywood isn't the best option but they are still choosing to go with it after I told them that. Regarding time on just Vcarving all the letters, when I did it that way it took longer. These letters are large (1/4" bit can clean most of the letter out) so that is why I went with two bits. The tree trunk is 12" wide which makes me choose a 1/2" bit to clean out the pockets first. What takes the longest is the Vbit, I attached what Aspire was giving me for time...

Vcarve 2 (pocket) = tree
Vcarve 2 = tree
Vcarve 3 (pocket) = letters/numbers
Vcarve 3 = letters/numbers

As you can see the Vcarving is what takes the most time...

[Kyle Stapleton]

Skip the vcarve and just pocket the whole thing to .125".
No one will stand close eough to a 4x8 sign to see the .25 and .125 radius in the pockets.
Also bump up the ips and step over.
Joe know his stuff and if he says half an hour to cut that's what it should take.

[David Iannone]

For customer supplied material, I charge $15 sq/ft for vcarve or flat bottom carving. Would be $480 per panel.

Dave

[rseeley13]

Thanks everyone for your reply, I guess that is what signs go for I just didn't think that they were that expensive. I will talk to the client to see if I can get them to change the material.

What feeds and speeds would you guys run with birch plywood?

[joe]

Ryan,

What David has suggested isn't expensive. That's about as low as they come. Please let me explain.

The cost of materials doesn't really reflect the final price of a sign. Most sign shops have other expenses like rent, utilities, auto expenses, insurance, not to mention labor. After all we need to buy shoes for the kids, pay insurance for the family and keep the wife reasonably funded for the grocery store and attend to her personal needs. So you see the materials are a small matter when you look at the whole picture.

Also let me mention it's painful when a part timer charges too little. A free sign for the church or charity group comes directly out of the pocket of the little sign shop in your town. So it turns out the guy working out of his garage, with little overhead, hurts the little sign guys.

Vbits: As everone knows a 90 degree bit cuts as deep as the widest stroke in the file. Most fellows also have 110 and 120 bits because they give a much better read letter. Also it helps to have BIG bits. That is to say 90 degree bit that is 1.5" wide saves lots of time over a 1" wide bit. that's making several passes. Those wide bits also cut a cleaner path.

[srwtlc]

Ryan,

More opinions for what it's worth. ;)

Is this going to be indoors or outdoors? If it's indoors, some veneered MDF would be a good choice. There would be no need to paint it for a logo/business like theirs, just a good stain and topcoat would give a nice contrast. The attached image is cherry MDF with a light stain. The stain soaks into the MDF and wipes off the veneer if sanded smooth.

I'd go with a 120° V-bit for the text and if the depth of cut isn't more than half the thickness, forget the flat depth there. For the tree, try a 3/8" downcut with the 90° V-bit and I'd limit the depth to no more than 0.1875" since you're cutting both sides. Using the 3/8" bit will save a tool change.

Don't know what you are planning for hold down, but that plywood is going to want to move after taking out that much material in the tree area, and if it's not held down good, you're going to get cut depth variations as the cut progresses and between tool changes. That's one reason why I wouldn't go 1/4" deep on both sides.

If this is for outdoors, you don't want to leave a square cut edge, as this will allow moisture from rain and snow to accumulate on the ledge.

Your feeds/speeds aren't too bad,considering what it is for a path. You could run faster on the tree pocket unless the bottom finish starts getting too rough. Not having to do a flat bottom pass on the letters would save a time. The time estimate is not going to be realistic until you have kept track of several cut times and can adjust the scale factor to match times with what you really see. If you have an Alpha, you can bump the rapids up to 15 - 20 ips and save a little time on jogs. I'll say an hour per side. ;)

[shilala]

Ryan, a lot of times, especially when I'm unsure about the direction I'm headed, I'll take the big project and shrink it down to something I can bang out real quick.
I didn't see your dimensions, but you mentioned the tree trunk being a foot wide.
Looks like you're making a 4'x8' sign?
Cut that down to a 1'x2' or 6"x12" project and make a mock-up. I'd use real material, but you could do it in some plywood scrap, drive everything to the same depths, then you can show your friends what it'll look like. You can just do a section of the sign, like the tree. That's really gonna go to hell when you cut it in ply, and it'll be a good bad example to show your customer.
Just the act of the small sign being made will give you a lot of insight into what you're doing and what you can change.

I'd also like to chirp about the birch ply. The guys won't come out and say it's just plain wrong, but I will. You'll do all that excellent work and it'll go to hell on you, and then you'll be the one that looks bad.
It's perfectly okay to say no. I do it all the time.