Mazes, continued....

[Burkhardt]

Don't find my old maze thread anymore to continue but I finally got around to finishing the software as Beta status. Some more work on the user guide document and I will try to release this. Below an experiment making a pretty big maze about 30"x24". The start is near Washington, DC and the end is somewhere near Spokane, WA.

However I could not do the undercut ball channels and maintain the separating walls because then it would have become too big for my machine.

I am wondering if I should offer a limited number of free licenses again for active beta testers. Any takers?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wzyMfx2CMM0/VKcOze4fLFI/AAAAAAAAFg8/WBLnghLnm4Q/w1337-h853-no/DSC02970.JPG

[steve_g]

Gert…
I think this is the old thread…
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18547&highlight=maze (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18547&highlight=maze)
I likely could do some messing around if you want some beta testers…
SG

[Burkhardt]

Cool, I will post about it when ready.

You have a big machine, maybe you can do this, would be 72" x 56" two-sided? Start at the trunk and end at the tail.
It would take only 10 or 12 hours to cut.....;-)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Zb82FvKkExI/VKclKuf7FOI/AAAAAAAAFh0/TpOdXMQhwKk/w1103-h853-no/ScreenHunter_02%2BJan.%2B02%2B15.07.jpg

[srwtlc]

Yikes! For 2-4 players. ;)

[steve_g]

The grand kids would love it! Unfortunately, a “big” machine is not well defined…
SG

[Kyle Stapleton]

Looks like a good project for kids.

[JimmyD]

That looks great! I would love to beta test it for you.

Jim

[Burkhardt]

Yikes! For 2-4 players. ;)
Ah, piece of cake....try this. Would not fit on any machine I know of, though. Well, maybe as a decorative engraving.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oolZA7h1dsk/VKdJuqzoSfI/AAAAAAAAFiM/TnpNjWO9XTk/s853-no/ScreenHunter_03%2BJan.%2B02%2B17.42.jpg

[scottp55]

Interested:)

[Burkhardt]

After a year or so of procrastination I finished the Mazemaker software and a rough manual. That means a Beta version is available for download. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29562014/MazeMakerInstall.zip).

Please give it a try, it will probably not crash your computer. However, simulation, review of machine movement values and an air cut is recommended before slicing up your machine table. I made a couple of late amendments to accommodate the Shopbot requirements and hope they work.

You can play with the software on the screen as you like but before you run the machine please read the manual carefully to avoid making firewood.

Here is the deal....for the first five Beta users who can show pictures of a successfully machined 2-sided maze I will issue free licenses that remove the demo limitations. I will keep posting how many are left.

[Kyle Stapleton]

Looked all over the net and could not find a picture of a two sided maze, so I guess I will have to make one and take a picture.:D

[scottp55]

Thank you Gert!!:)

[steve_g]

Gert…
I can’t get any input to take… I had this problem with the tailmaker beta but I don’t remember what the solution was…
SG

[Burkhardt]

Gert…
I can’t get any input to take… I had this problem with the tailmaker beta but I don’t remember what the solution was…
SG

Ah, the problems are starting....Do you mean you can not enter any numbers into the input fields on the main window? Maybe we can move this to PM; this may have to do with your computer setup (which Windows version?)

[steve_g]

PM sent...
SG

[scottp55]

Ouch:)
Think I better print the instuctions out:)
Have to buy .5" ball end plunge, Drats:) (tried using my .25" and of course "exceeded demo limits", cna't blame a guy for trying:)
More coffee indicated to visualize undercuts!
Just wanted to show SB3 ate it.
TOP

[zeykr]

A couple PM's sent

[steve_g]

I’m having lots of fun designing mazes using a blocking pattern… I have a small 8” X 8” two sided one in the shape of Texas that changes sides several times… It should be just difficult enough to entertain the kids until the food arrives!
SG

[scottp55]

Steve, Only started playing with it. If I had a specific board in mind, is there a way to make the maze THAT size?
Whose ball end plunge cutter are you using? Was going to go with S.EastTools again as I liked what their .25"D 1/4shank was giving me for results(still haven't searched/ordered yet--cost IS a factor as this counts as "playing" so out of my limited pocket money).
Thanks,
scott

[steve_g]

Scott…
Size wise, the beta limits you to a 10 cell X 10 cell. The total physical size depends on some of the options you choose, like wall thicknesses. I haven’t got it all figured out yet but by using a blocking pattern, you can determine the cell # by cell # dimensions…
I was going to run one today but it appears that a ½” ball is about the only size I don’t have! I’ll likely order from Magnet as I want some others of theirs also.
SG

[scottp55]

Thanks Steve, I'll throw Magnate into the search(too bad it wasn't 2 weeks ago when I ordered their 1/2" .25R pointed round over:)
Been sticking pretty much with Gerts defaults in inches so far.

[srwtlc]

Was going to give one a try, but all I have on hand is a 0.375 ball bit and a 0.3125 bearing ball and can't generate with the attached settings with the demo version.

G, would it be possible to be able to load a .dxf outline that would then generate a blocking pattern (or some vector format or even a black/white bitmap)?

[srwtlc]

Something else that would be a nice addition, would be to output a .dxf or something of an outline of the face of the maze so you could take it into the program of your choice to embellish with text, vcarve, or 3D. ;)

[Burkhardt]

Was going to give one a try, but all I have on hand is a 0.375 ball bit and a 0.3125 bearing ball and can't generate with the attached settings with the demo version.

G, would it be possible to be able to load a .dxf outline that would then generate a blocking pattern (or some vector format or even a black/white bitmap)?

I thought about that when I started using the blocking method and considered Windows icon files (similar to bitmap). Problem was that (especially for low cell resolution) the blocking pattern has to be manually tweaked anyway to optimize the look. I can revisit that again.

Another reason for the simple text based pattern is that everybody has a text editor or word processor available. In most word processors (or spreadsheets) you can actually overlay an image with a text box text and fill the blocking pattern accordingly.
Procedure in MS Word:
- select a picture and look up the image pixel aspect ratio
- choose cell numbers with a ratio according to this aspect ratio that fits your blank size
- load the image onto a Word page
- create a text box on top of the image and fill with as many "X" rows and column as the required cell numbers. You may have to change the font color to be visible, like red.
- resize the picture to match the text box content
- overwrite the target area in the text box for the maze with "-" characters and mark start point "O"
- Copy the text box content into MS notepad (or into the regular page text area of MS Word) and save as .txt file.
- Make sure you still have the desired number of rows and columns

This is what I did for my blocking patterns. Even the elephant pattern took not much more than 10 minutes to create. At the end I found it easier than messing with photoshop and selecting grey shades for conversion.

[Burkhardt]

Something else that would be a nice addition, would be to output a .dxf or something of an outline of the face of the maze so you could take it into the program of your choice to embellish with text, vcarve, or 3D. ;)

That is on the to-do list. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the DXF file format and the DXF standard document from Autodesk is 306 pages long. But I know they have code samples for minimal file requirements. Got to look into that.

[Burkhardt]

I looked a little more into the dxf export, actually not that hard to do. But I am wondering "what" and "how" to export. E.g. the top slotting tool path may look like the image below.

If I just export the basic maze trace like in the preview it will take a lot of additional work in Vcarve or Aspire to make usable tool paths out of it.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-aYBzWZdFz6w/VKtGah93nnI/AAAAAAAAFig/fQsxPPyfIuc/w898-h520-no/ScreenHunter_01%2BJan.%2B05%2B18.18.jpg

[Burkhardt]

Due to popular demand the dxf export is now added: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29562014/MazeMakerInstall.zip
It will create a dxf file with four layers of a single closed vector for each of the various cuts, but for single sided mazes only. The side switching of double sided layers would be very difficult to replicate in dxf.

Using the direct g-code output is much safer but the dxf feature may help adding text or additional carvings in correct position to a maze.

I have also changed the file name extension to be a bit more self-explanatory and added a number of feasibility checks to correct impossible settings.

[scottp55]

Thanks G.
Bit just ordered:)

[srwtlc]

G, if it would make it any simpler, all you would need is one layer of just the slot cut for each side and the user would just have to remember to mirror the second side.

If using SB3, you can also preview the cut, make it black/white and save the preview as a jpg. Then you can trace that jpg in VCP/Aspire etc, but getting it scaled to the right size after tracing is a little iffy (measuring the actual cut would be better).

[srwtlc]

G, when switching to 'Inch' and clicking 'New Maze', I get this error with the latest version (this is with the default settings).

[srwtlc]

Forgot the screen shot...

[zeykr]

Here's a test maze cut with the dxf output and a rockler Marble Bit. Cut from 1" mdf.

[Burkhardt]

G, when switching to 'Inch' and clicking 'New Maze', I get this error with the latest version (this is with the default settings).

Thanks Scott,
fortunately this is only a warning. I have added this in the latest version because extremely shallow vertical slot walls above an undercut break off too easy. The problem is the default for the vertical wall is exactly 1mm at the warning limit and when switching to inches the rounding makes it 0.039" which is just a tad below.

In the next version I need to change the default setting for the vertical wall to 2mm/0.08".

For now please ignore this warning and increase the vertical wall setting.

[scottp55]

Nice Ken:)
Did you stick close to Gert's defaults for feed/speed?
Could only afford 1 bit, and longest cut with my 1/4" has been 4"X3 so far---Not like I can retract and check temp either:)
Looks clean!
scott

[zeykr]

Scott,
Was cut in mdf using a rockler marble bit in a single pass at 1.5 ips (90ipm).

[zeykr]

Here's a diagonal version:

[scottp55]

Thanks Ken!
Got a Magnate from Amazon coming, not sure what wood for a 2-sided, but it gives me a good start point:)

[steve_g]

Ken…
I see that Rockler’s marble bit has a flat vertical portion… did you use the bit without a clearance path? The bit is 5/8” diameter, what parameters did you change to allow this bit, rather than the default ½” bit?
SG

[zeykr]

Steve, I lied to the demo about channel wall thickness to make up for the larger bit. I then used the dxf output and toolpathed in aspire to cut .7" deep in a single pass. Of course the lying is only necessary due to the demo mode.

The only marble I have is .55" in dia and it is not trapped in the maze at the intersections though it is in the straight sections. Either need a bigger marble or a tool with a smaller shank which is what the program was really designed for. Just using what I have available to play ;-)

[Burkhardt]

..... Of course the lying is only necessary due to the demo mode......
FWIW, I removed the channel size limitation for the latest version (the one with the dxf output). Having my beta testers lie was weighing heavy on my conscience :D

[srwtlc]

Thanks G, I was thinking about lying too, but now I don't have to. I feel better already! ;)

[srwtlc]

Are the coordinates for the dxf off here and there a bit? Attached is a dxf with an offset applied in Aspire and you can see that some lines don't return or lie directly on top of others. It does give a good layout to work with though.

The size of the dxf when opened or imported is very small though. I'm not sure that scaling it to the size shown in MazeMaker will be true. The original comes in at 0.282 and the size should be 7.3"

[Burkhardt]

Are the coordinates for the dxf off here and there a bit? Attached is a dxf with an offset applied in Aspire and you can see that some lines don't return or lie directly on top of others. It does give a good layout to work with though.

The size of the dxf when opened or imported is very small though. I'm not sure that scaling it to the size shown in MazeMaker will be true. The original comes in at 0.282 and the size should be 7.3"

Thanks Scott, I am still a newbie with this very odd dxf format. Output seems to be pretty accurate when using mm units. Need to look into the unit situation.

[Ger21]

.dxf files should be unitless, but there may be a Units flag which the importing software may be using to scale the size?

The example cited in the previous post was off by a factor of roughly 25.4, so it was either scaled when imported, or written in the wrong units.

I've never written a .dxf file, but have a lot of experience with the format through 20+ years of AutoCAD use and custom AutoCAD programming.

[Burkhardt]

So far I exported coordinates as mm numbers when the user units are set to mm and as inch numbers when set to inch. Such a mis-scale would happen when inch coordinates are imported as mm which can be decided in Vcarve and Aspire. I did notice in Vcarve that you can simply change the units only on the very first material definition screen. Once that is accepted, it will recalculate all dimensions when changing between mm and inch.

Got to experiment a with that. The somewhat skewed lines in the example are probably because I limited the dxf coordinate output accuracy to 3 decimals which is ample for mm but may be not sufficient for inches.

All interesting stuff....another fun project.

[Burkhardt]

One license was issued to user "Wackamazoo" on the CNC-Zone forum. Made with a rather inaccurate DIY machine and in splintery softwood but undeniably a double sided maze. 4 more to go....

[steve_g]

Still twiddling my thumbs waiting on my ball end bit…:(
SG

[Burkhardt]

Still twiddling my thumbs waiting on my ball end bit…:(
SG

Another two licenses went to CNC-Zone users "MadeInTheShed" in Oz and "Alan_3301" in Utah. Two more free ones to go.....

BTW, I think I found a good way of producing dxf files for two-sided mazes as well. Next beta version will have that feature.

[srwtlc]

Don't know if this qualifies or not, but I made an attempt with what I had for bits and a ball bearing. It was a poor choice of wood (pretty much knew it would be), a piece of an old Douglas Fir bleacher seat. Lost a lot of points and the 0.3125" ball falls out at most intersections. I used a 0.375" ball cutter with a 0.375" channel. Didn't program for staples as the plan was to cut inlays for the recess, but the thickness of the board wouldn't allow me to cut deep enough to do so (too chipped up to bother, but was a good test to see how things cut).

One thing I noticed is that the passes for recesses and dowels do a Z 0.00 level pass, cutting nothing, instead of the first actual depth step.

Also, a saved file doesn't save/reload the complete comment line. If I have entered {TR,12000}{SO,1,1}{PAUSE 3} and generate code, the code is as it should be, but if you save/reload the maze, the comment is now just {TR. If you don't edit the comment and save the code, the cut file won't have the desired commands.

Need to order some proper bits and do one like I'd like to do with a blocking pattern. Haven't quite figured out how to properly make the blocking pattern yet.

[scottp55]

Should qualify, Gert? :)
Nice to see a Shopbotter get one.

[Burkhardt]

Don't know if this qualifies or not......

Sure it does :) I'll send you the license file later.

Thanks for the info about the comment line. I need to check what is whacking that off.

The reason for the zero-level hole cutting is the peculiarity that the Shopbot controller ignores the z-shift for the G2 arc/helix commend. On a regular g-code machine, the holes are cut as a smooth contiguous spiral and the first command would start cutting already into the material. On the Shopbot it just makes a flat circle and then plunges to the next level with the following "G1" that I added for compatibility (at least this is what I am seeing on the demo). Let me know if there is something I can do about it.

Please keep in mind that the diagonal mazes are more intended for decorative and pattern making purposes or for simple slot cutting. Undercut channels will leave too wide crossings with diagonal mazes to keep the ball captive and the overhang at acute angles will likely chip off.

[steve_g]

My Ball-end bit finally came today… Turns out the problem was with a bandsaw blade I ordered at the same time.
The Texas maze turned out well! I used a 1” thick pine stair tread. I used a 1/8” bit to cut my slots… the problem came when it cut the holes that go through the layers. It got into the transition area of the bit where it tapers from 1/8” to ¼”, so my holes are tapered. I plan to cut the maze into the shape of the state, I also chose a version that enters and exits on the same side. Rather than staples, I’ll either use plexi on the entire side, or an inlay plug.

SG

[scottp55]

Hope you got the last one Steve!
Congrats Scott!!

[Burkhardt]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]My Ball-end bit finally came today….......

O.k., that counts and makes it 5.
Means, the free license challenge is closed now. I will keep collecting feedback for another week or two before I publish the "real" first version.

[Burkhardt]

......... If I have entered {TR,12000}{SO,1,1}{PAUSE 3} and generate code, the code is as it should be, but if you save/reload the maze, the comment is now just {TR. .......

Now I know what that one is....doh. My program understands the commas as end of text input, stops there and does not read to the very end of the comment line. A bit cumbersome to fix but will be done for the next beta.