18lb sign foam vs 30lb precision board

[blackhawk]

Sign Foam and Precision Board are the only two HDUs readily available to me. I want to use at least the 18lb Sign Foam. For $62 more on a 4x8 sheet, I can step up to 30lb Precision Board.

I am sure these companies rate their densities a little different, but I am thinking the 30lb would be worth an extra $62 ~ roughly 20% increase. I have used Sign Foam, but not Precision Board.

Does anyone disagree that the 30lb Precision Board is the way to go over 18lb Sign Foam?

[steve_g]

Brad…
I have used 10lb sign foam and 40 lb. PB… The 40 lb. was like carving wood! I loved it. I’d gladly pay the up charge for the higher density!
SG

[joe]

Brad,

I'm not sure what your doing with these materials.

Have you given up on using 1" PVC. It's my favorite and much cheaper and tougher.

Joe

[danhamm]

I had never used PVC until recently, thought the price would be to high.

It cuts and carves nicely and if wanted after 3/d carving can be made to curve for counters, and it looks like wood, paints easily.
Is cheaper than any of the sign foams.

PVC Sheet, 4' Width x 8' Length, 25 MM Thickness, Wood-like finish, For Signage, Screen Printing, Arts and Crafts and Building Industries

Thanks Joe, for recommending this stuff.

[David Iannone]

Brad,
I would take the $62 savings on the sheet. HDU is always gonna be HDU. It requires filling/priming, sanding,=hours.

I have used a lot of HDU over the years. If you are using this product it should be for nice finished letters that are pocketed into a sign, or one really strong support system it is hanging from.

Currently, I am in the process of converting my dimensional signage to more PVC.

Thanks to Joe Crumley for the advice and knowledge he has helped me with.



Dave

[David Iannone]

PVC is easy to work with.
The only paint was One Shot Gold Metallic.

[RossMosh]

I'd recommend calling up your distributor or the actual companies and ask for samples.

I touched a piece of SF4 at a trade show before it was released and it was really nice; nicer than Duna. I was thinking about using it on a project so I asked for a sample to look at again and run a test. I got the sample and it was not the same as what I had touched at the trade show. It's very comparable to Duna but not nicer than it.

Long story short. Get the stuff in your hand before spending $300+ on a piece of HDU. The companies are happy to send you free samples.

[joe]

Ross,

Good advice.

What are you doing that requires such HD Foam?

[blackhawk]

Does anyone have specific brands/grades of PVC that they are using? I get most of my sheet goods from Harbor Sales. From the link below which are the correct types of PVC to use for routed signs?

http://www.harborsales.net/tabid/130/Default.aspx?ProductTypeId=162

Komacel and Excel brands are the only choices for thicknesses over 1/2"

[joe]

Brad,

I'm not sure there's that much difference between brands. All those I've tried are close in density and paint well. Unlike HDU that's all over the place. Costs can vary but the target price for 1" is $185.00.

Some brands seem to Out-Gas more than others. That may be due to the amount of open cells.

Joe

[Chuck Keysor]

Brad, in my notebook, I wrote that on 8/24/14, Sam rated Versatex best, then Azek is almost as good. Kleer is nowhere near as good. Celuka/Koma have a good hard exterior, but the interior is grainy. He noted Versatex has application videos that are helpful.

On 1/28/15, Brady said he likes Palram, then Komatex, Sintra then Ex-Cel. (He said Excel used to be bad, but is now very good.)

I personally don't know any of these brands, but since I had written this down (as I do have an upcoming need for PVC), I thought I would share this past information in answer to your question.

Chuck

[joe]

Chuck,

Good report but I have one question. Is all of this, or any of it, rated for exterior? It looks like we're comparing apples and oranges.

Most of the PVC in my area, which is 1/8", 1/4" and 1/2" is interior grade. It's easily identified by the slight textured surface. A fingernail will easily make a mark. All the .75" or 1" is a completely different product and is exterior rated. The surface is very smooth, almost slick.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Joe,

Your description is perfect. I checked the sheets in my rack and the 2 sheets of 1/2" PVC had the slick hard finish, however the sheet of 1/2" I am cutting my newest pocket practice is exactly as you said, slight textured and easily marked.

I have no idea of the brands, but from now on when I call API Plastics (wish I could get full sheet deliver from Harbor Sales) from now on I will not rely on the "salesmen" over the phone for advise.

I have used 3mil Sintra for many years making cheap vinyl signs. But I am learning carving the thicker PVC has A LOT of potential.

Dave

[RossMosh]

The rule of thumb is glossy pvc = exterior. It will be very slick like Joe said. I've wanted to try the Ex-Cel stuff but I've always been afraid to. The difference in price between Komacel is not a lot, I think about $30 which works out to less than $1 per sq foot. I never could rationalize taking the risk. Komacel is a more well known and respected brand so that's who I've gone with.

I'm not sure where Joe gets glossy 1" PVC for $185, but that's a really good deal. Everyone around here is $225 +/-$10.

[joe]

We took delivery on four sheets of .75" at $122.5@. The quoted price for 1" is now $212.00. For some reason my orders from Regal Plastics has a $10 order fee. Makes no sense!

I'll keep looking for 1" at less than $200 since our usual order is half dozen sheets every three weeks. The main issue is transportation. The prices listed above includes the delivery fee to my shop.

[garyb]

Thats right Joe, regal charge you just to process your order and do an invoice, it was only 7 bucks when I quit ordering from them, ah inflation
Gary

[Alex Naumenko]

I am using komatex white pvc price is not bad 0,5/.75/1 is $72/$121/$169
I can cut PVC .5 in one pass @ 250 inch/min
Paints without any primer as long as you wipe it with xylene.
All of my letters made out of pvc.
And if you need ant wood grain pvc home depot have .5 4x8 for $75

[joe]

Alex,

I really like those letters. Clean and neat. I'd bet you'll never go back to HDU for these. We're getting more converts all the time.

Do you think the Komatex you listed is exterior rated. From the price it may be the less dense material.

Joe

[jerry_stanek]

This past summer I was driving by our volunteer fire department and noticed their sign was in really bad shape. Went home and set up a quick file and cut the letters out of komatex and did a shallow pocket in some white took me about an hour to complete every thing took it to the station and it took me longer to hang it than to make it. I had maybe 4 hours total in it. Material was left over stuff and my time was donated they really are pleased I also cut some smaller letters that I donated to the boy scouts for a project the they were doing for the department. Got a mention in the local paper about this.

[joe]

Jerry,

The technical end of this job looks very good but you gotta do a little more work on your layout skills. You're better than that.

Joe

[jerry_stanek]

Had to match the old sign according to the zoning inspector

[Chuck Keysor]

And better still, Jerry's sign didn't cost the taxpayers a dime! Thanks Jerry! Chuck

[joe]

Yow right! Just what I expected.

[Alex Naumenko]

Alex,

I really like those letters. Clean and neat. I'd bet you'll never go back to HDU for these. We're getting more converts all the time.

Do you think the Komatex you listed is exterior rated. From the price it may be the less dense material.

Joe
I only making signs for 5 years. No structural failure so far. Two paint failures all with large wood signs. I warranty all my signs for life (structural not paint) if they made from hdu pvc or extira .
Here some information from manufacturer.
http://www.kommerlingusa.com/outdoor_PVC_usage.cfml

[David Iannone]

I only making signs for 5 years. No structural failure so far. Two paint failures all with large wood signs. I warranty all my signs for life (structural not paint) if they made from hdu pvc or extira .
Here some information from manufacturer.
http://www.kommerlingusa.com/outdoor_PVC_usage.cfml

Alex,
You give a warranty? Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I have never offered a warranty. Been in sign business for myself since 1999. Worked for a Fastsigns franchise for 7 years before that. Started in this business when I was 15 years old and loved it. I learned from there. No college, just a HS education.

What I do is let the customer know the expected life of the signage they are requesting. Doesn't matter if its a cheap vinyl cut sign, or a $10,000 Peachtree City Foamcraft monument based entrance sign that I install with V-carved Gold leaf lettering and all.

Vehicle Wraps, same thing. I never over sell the customer, and never offer a warranty. However I always stand behind my work, and rarely have any complains.

The word "warranty" to me is a car salesmen trick.

No offense to you Alex, or any car salesmen out there.

Dave

[joe]

Interesting topic fellows.

Everyone has to come to their resolve with this one. My customers often wonder about the life of their sign. I suggest about ten years but that has a lot to do with the direction the sign will be facing.

On natural wood finished signs, usually rough cedar, my estimate is about five years. Everyone is willing to have me out for a face-lift. I never charge and it only takes a few minutes. Keep in mind these are expensive pieces and I want them to last as much as the customer.

I know nothing about vinyl. Since HDU is off limits at my shop and I've had lots of total failures, I'll not comment.

PVC warranty? At my age I've giving a lifetime warranty.

[GeneMpls]

I only making signs for 5 years. No structural failure so far. Two paint failures all with large wood signs. I warranty all my signs for life (structural not paint) if they made from hdu pvc or extira .
Here some information from manufacturer.
http://www.kommerlingusa.com/outdoor_PVC_usage.cfml

Thank you Alex- good reading. Gene

[joe]

Alex.

It could be the reason for the reduced price you are getting has to do with the product not be rated for exterior use. As stated before, when the PVC surface is very slick and smooth it's an indication of the HD products. I could be wrong on the material you are using and I sure would like to save $40. a sheet.

"KOMATEX will expand and contract depending on fluctuations in temperature. The use of dark paint or the standard colors other than white is not recommended for outdoor applications. Dark colors have a tendency to absorb more heat, thus increasing the potential for damage."

Most of my signs have colors. Not sure about this product. Keep us informed if you have any problems. I'm a hawk when it comes to product quality.

[Alex Naumenko]

I do use warranty as extra selling point. There is a lot of people in my area who using cheap or not appropriate materials for signs and printed graphics. Then I asked one of them he stated "you do want to have repeat work are you?"
I warranty all printed products accept banners for one year against cracking of laminate or peeling. Dimensional sign warranty is only for structural. For example: warping of the material , splitting or cracking would be fixed or replaced. Paint is not covered. As I stated I am building signs for 5 years but I have 20 years of custom fabrication experience. So far I did't have any warranty claims and all my signs look same as the day I installed them.
And last but not least people don't really care about warranty all the care about
is the price.

[Alex Naumenko]

Alex.

It could be the reason for the reduced price you are getting has to do with the product not be rated for exterior use. As stated before, when the PVC surface is very slick and smooth it's an indication of the HD products. I could be wrong on the material you are using and I sure would like to save $40. a sheet.

"KOMATEX will expand and contract depending on fluctuations in temperature. The use of dark paint or the standard colors other than white is not recommended for outdoor applications. Dark colors have a tendency to absorb more heat, thus increasing the potential for damage."

Most of my signs have colors. Not sure about this product. Keep us informed if you have any problems. I'm a hawk when it comes to product quality.

I mainly using PVC for letters and small (under 6 sq/ft) signs. Most of them painted dark colors. So far so good.

[joe]

Alex,

I sure would like to save $40. a sheet if possible. Does the PVC your using have a slick surface or is it a little textured. I'm not opposed to what your doing. If you're happy so am I.

On the topic of warranty:
Every customer, I can remember, ask about life expectancy and maintenance on their new custom made sign. I'm proud of your business and wouldn't suggest any changes with what you're doing with regard to this topic. We live in two different business worlds. Our customers aren't as price conscious as yours They come to us, in part, for image quality and look more than price.

When a signs is installed I keep a close eye on it. Since they require lots of time and attention and the prices are on the upper end. When a visiting new customer lets me know price is the bottom line, I help them find another vendor. That way everyone is happy.

I'm proud of every sign shop servicing their community. We are all different but equal. My hats off to sign businesses knowing how difficult it is to survive. To make it in this business you've gotta be book keeper, sales person, and designer. Working together is a benefit. Sharing materials and techniques make life more fun.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Alex,
Congrats on being in business for yourself for 5 years. That is not easy to do, and taking the initial "plunge" into the swimming pool is scary as hell I know. After Fastsigns had my Dad not helped me and gave me the nudge I needed I would not be were I am today.

I know what you mean with the "other" guys using cheap products to undercut one another, I used to screen print tee shirts years ago, talk about a competitive business there.....people haggling over pennies. After a few years of tee shirts I got sick of that and sold the setup and never want to pull a squeegee over a screen ever again.

I have also been one of those guys trying to be the cheapest, and save a few bucks on a roll of vinyl. About 2 years ago I switched to using 3M vinyls for everything. Print, cut vinyl. I use 3M as a selling point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Avery or Oracal. I prefer to explain to my customers that I am using only 3M products (a lot of my graphics ship all over the US for Charter Communications, Comcast, etc.) So when my customers get it they also can rest assured the 3M logo is stamped all over the backing paper.

I no longer try to "compete" with the other guys. And I am not the cheapest, in certain cases I will tell the customer I am not the cheapest. When I sell a customer now a days I just try to make sure I understand what they need, and let them know I am using the best products on the market. This is also why I am moving more to using PVC and Diebond because again, Brand recognition.

I haven't been doing much dimensional signs lately but got a few good ones in the works. One I will be working on is a 3'x12' development entrance refurb using diebond, following Joe C. tips. I will post pics of the process and before and after pics. But its still a little to cold for me to get out there with the pressure washer just yet.

Show us a pic or two of one of your favorite dimensional projects. The 3D stuff is where I am trying to go from this year forward. I am so bored printing, weeding, taping, applying vinyl. I want to be more creative.

Dave

[Alex Naumenko]

Here is some of my work https://picasaweb.google.com/111637094312113380359/MyWork?authuser=0&feat=directlink

[David Iannone]

Beautiful work. I am not doing Dimensional signs on that level yet. But have done some cool ones over the years. And other misc machining for customers off my bot. Some as simple as parts cut from HDPE for the local Kia plant about 20 min from me. I don't even know what the heck they do with them, but they supply the DXF files and I cut them.

I will find one of my favorite jobs done in precision board many years ago and post it.

Thanks for the pics. That is what inspires me to try to do better.

Dave

[David Iannone]

Found it. This was the best development entrance sign I ever did. It was done in 2004 when I was in business in DE. I had a few guys working for me at the time.

-My sister was our designer. She did the sign layout. I did the install drawing layout.

-Peachtree City Foamcraft made the monument and delivered to us.

-Material was the cheapest 1.5" HDU I could get my hands on cause I knew I was gonna be sanding anyway.

-I primed and painted the blank with Mathews Acrylic Poly catalized paint. (I used to have a nice spray room back then). Finished up with a nice coat of gloss since it comes out of the can satin.....or used to back then.

-Applied paint mask, then v-carve and cut out. Prime and paint Mathews gold metallic then gloss coat. Then came in over the gold metallic and gloss coat and let it have some gold size and leafed it. No clear coat over the leaf.

-My Dad made the railings for me as he has a sheet metal business, and I primed and painted with Mathews paint also.

-Me, Dad, and one of the guys that worked for me went out and did the install.

They loved it, and I hear it still looks good today.

Total invoice was just shy of $10,000 on this one.

I miss those days, not the money....working with my family. At the moment I work by myself and moved to GA in 2006. But never the less I still love to make signs, and am on my way back up the ladder......figuratively and litterally.

Dave

[David Iannone]

more pics........

[David Iannone]

and the last pic of it........

[joe]

Excellent.

David, thank you for taking the time to post the step by step. Wish we had more of these to see.

Joe

[Alex Naumenko]

Here is latest PVC project.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/C71AB78Ek4DqiiCMabmp7tMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/tvTw54Q7LflcmjgXslzkG9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink

[mtylerfl]

Very nice work! Thank you for sharing the photos and links.

[David Iannone]

Alex,
Top notch work. I really like the Shelter Cove Towne Centre Monument.

If you get a second, do you mind giving a brief description of the process to go with the pics? Did you do all the structural design in house? Did you fab and install all the framework, foundation as well as all the sign inserts. Looks like backlit LEDs? Permitting and engineer approval for drawings? I would never get into a project that large but it great to know there are other Sign Shopboters out there keeping their machines busy.

Thanks for sharing,
Dave

[Alex Naumenko]

We had to take over with that project. Monument was designed by my friend and build by steel fabricators. I did halo letters and all slots. In my county any sign over 40 sq ft needs to have wind load calculation signed by engineer. We do fab all lit signs and framework in house but not for that project.