Cutting Textured Background in Cypress?

[David Iannone]

Ok, I don't work with much cypress, but a company I do CNC routing for just called me and said he has got the job to replace all signage in Callaway Gardens and I'm gonna be doing all the cutting........:D

http://www.callawaygardens.com/

Yeah, I'm excited. I was a little down this morning due to the cloudy cold morning, but that call sure woke me up.

Anyhow, he said they want textured backgrounds on everything. I said "ok, I shouldn't tell you this, but it sounds like a sandblast job to me". He said he doesn't want to sandblast. Ok, I said bring me some wood and let me make some samples. So that is where we are at.

Anyone cut any textures in cypress? Maybe I flat bottom carve about .25 deep, then spray backround with shelac, then cut texture in it? The only thing I have cut in cypress was flat bottom carved signs for him.

Good timing to be finishing up my vac hold down table:)

Thanks,
Dave

[David Iannone]

Just got a small piece of the wood handed to me and this drawing of what some will look like. Will be a lot of small directional signs like this as well as large signs. I think I need to stick with a basic large texture. Gonna make 4 sample textures with one letter in each. Will time each sample machine time. The two borders will be left raised, unmachined

This will be the first large production texture job I will take on. I am thinking charge $20 sq/ft just to cut. I get this price from Harbor Sales in MD. They used to do all my CNC cutting before I got my Bot. That is their wholesale pricing for texture carves. Too cheap? Remember I am just doing one small portion (and in my opinion the easiest part) of this job.

They supply wood, they supply vector files. With tool path templates and vac hold down I should be able to be pretty efficient.

[scottp55]

Congrats Dave, Not much Cypress in Maine except maybe my Snake, and a small slab I've never touched.
Hope someone can help tell you how it Carves for Textured surface, seem to remember "stringy"? Wonder if a coating of finish/sanding sealer after pocketing might help before cutting Texture?
"Hard telling...Not knowing"
scott
Good luck and watch cutting times on protos.

[Bob Eustace]

Stop worrying Dave - its gorgeous stuff to machine - use it almost daily. Biggest problem is its prone to checking and it can be brittle. Zero problems with signage though. It never gives a furry finish!

[scottp55]

Sounds good for outdoor signs:)
Wonder at the "light Passes" under workability?
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/softwoods/cypress/

[joe]

When a client say "we want a textured background" who knows what they have in mind.

What's the colors? Is this a natural stain?

Do you have one of their signs for comparison?

[David Iannone]

Bob,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am looking forward to this one. I will be posting as the process goes along.

Scott,
Thanks, I read the link. I am cutting the sample tomorrow. I plan to try 4 different patterns, and I will be timing the cut times, as well as trying some different bits.

Joe,
You are correct. When he dropped off the sample wood I asked him about textures. I said how about a rock texture? (I just wanted to see his reaction) He said no, just something simple.....LOL. I don't know the colors. On other jobs he will bring the stuff pre painted and masked. Or sometimes not even primed. He just said to make up some samples. He is a good customer of mine and been doing business with him for 3 years now. I know, not a lot to go on, but here is what I'm thinking. First issue is that logo on a directional sign that is so small. So I figure I will work my texture out from there. It has to work with such a small logo. It could end up the logo is raised and flat with vinyl lettering applied at the last step? Not sure. But I am about to start playing in Aspire here in the next few minutes. By the end of day tomorrow I will have samples cut for him and my recomendations on how I would like the job to go.

Dave

[David Iannone]

So after some back and forth with the customer I decided to work up some renderings in Aspire and send them to him and let him pick first before I just started machining samples.

They decided on the attached texture. I am gonna cut the sample texture this weekend.

This is "Bush1" texture that came with Aspire.

Dave

[joe]

David,

Perhaps you have more experience with Cypress than I do but it seems to me it can come in different densities. The panel below was soft and gave me fits.

Can you make small 3d signs affordable?

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Joe,
Very little experience with Cypress. Only Cypress I have ever cut was other panels this guy supplied me for other flat bottom carving. The sign you show looks clean to me. So far on the flat bottom cuts I have done for him it machines ok. I always do my profile pass first on area clears.

The price is a good question. Wondering the same thing myself. I am gonna try my best to get all the cutting on this job, while not underselling myself either. I will post as things go along, or if they don't like the sample and price I submit on Monday.........:)

My Bot sits idle most of the time in the back room. I am fixing it up for more of a production setup. I hope to see a day when I come in at 9am, flip the switch on the Vac hold down, start the machine cutting on long cut files. While the Bot is cutting I am in the front shop running digital printer, plotter etc. I am just a one guy small shop at the moment and my main business is printing and vinyl cut stuff, but things can always change in a matter of a year or two of proper planning and focus. That is me right now. As determined as ever to start making money off the machine that has had very little use over the years.

Dave

[gc3]

I would cut the texture and pockets for the letters for the "crisp" look...

[joe]

Gene,

That sounds like a good plan except for the material.

Have you had any experience with cutting smaller letters from Cypress?

Joe

[gc3]

not cypress but similar woods...and if letters are to be painted I'd use another wood like sapele that cuts very clean and crisp or maybe hdu

[joe]

Lets see how he does with the samples.

How about profiling the letters and band sawing them out to be pocketed. Who knows about the finishing. Could be anything.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Just cut this in the sample piece he gave me. It is a lot a machine time. I like it, but I am going to talk to him monday about pocketed letters. The only thing is there are guestimates of anywhere from 1000 to 5000 signs. Mostly small in size. It seems they have all dimensional signs throughout the property, exterior doors, wayfinding signs, the whole thing. Project will be done in phases. No one knows a count, I think this is just going to be an ongoing project for a long time. Could be a few signs at a time, or could be a few dozen at a time.

I think instead of working tomorrow I will go fishing. Supposed to be a nice day tomorrow. I will think about how much I need to get for running the machine on long 3D cut sign runs.

I don't know the colors or anything. I think he is just going to bring me raw wood. I know, it makes no sense that way. He should prepaint the face. I just cut what he brings.

Dave

[joe]

Dave,

Excellent work.

Now you know what to expect when carving Cypress. It can be fussy.

I'd like to make a suggestion or two. Why not try adding a texture manually. It would speed up the process. Lets say you have a MDF panel 12"X18" and show the customer some textures to choose from. On that panel I'd mask off several area's on which to apply textures.

One texture I love which is the easiest is Gutter Seal. It comes in rattle can at lumber yard. There's also Rocker Panel texture from the automotive paint supply in rattle can. Both of these are soften textures with a smooth edge. And they are extremely tough and durable and paintable.

Lets not forget the rattle can, over the counter textures at paint stores which are used by painting contractors. One of my favorites is the texture additives to be mixed with paint.

I could come up with several more if you like. But the main thing with this technique is times saved over some kind of 3d carve. That would be my last choice. When the client sees the cost saving they may make the decision.

Again let me complement you on the excellent samples.

[gc3]

so how long did that take to cut? what do you charge per hr? 1000-5000 signs...he gonna want a very cheap volume cost...aside from cut time...painting? installation? what is that sign size? me...i would cut large panels of texture, cut to size, pocket for letters and borders...cut those separate and glue...thinking production mode

[joe]

Gene,

Since your a production guy, don't you think it would be best to sell the client on a non 3D process? No matter what, carving the background, then pocketing and cutting the letters doesn't seem efficient.

Texturing a flat bottomed panel and texturing that with a pocket might work.

If anyone could do it correctly, it would be you.

Joe

[joe]

Dave,

Now see what you've gone and stirred up!

Good luck on your fishing trip tomorrow.

Joe

[gc3]

well i thinking at least 2 tool changes per sign 3d-2d...me seeing the cusp where letter meets texture kinda ugly, but thats me...ok so cut texture blanks say 600mm x 2400mm one toolpath 1 bit

same panel, same bit, cut out blank size with ballnose with tabs...have done this many times

sq endmill toolpaths same blank on table...pockets...trim router to cut tabs...how many signs ready?

new blank on table for letters with same sq end mill...cut letters...now you got signs, more than one ready to finish...while machine maybe starting new 3d texture

just some ideas for production runs

[chiloquinruss]

Just thinking out loud here, how about making it so you do the inset letters, BUT make sure they are all the SAME SIZE. That way you could spend a few days cutting just letters all nested tightly with very little waste. Then do a similar large pocket with a large bit for several different size signs, also kind of a gang up job and stock pile the blanks. Then just pocket for letters for the signs of the week. Might eliminate constant bit changes and get a little more speed into the production schedule. My 2 cents, spend wisely! :D Russ

[joe]

Russ,

Good 2cents.

Gene's description is so well thought out with all the steps.

Like you, I'm for a gang profile & area clear cut, then texture and come back for the pockets. I know we're kicking around lots of different idea's, but that's what it takes on real commercial work like this. But it's fun and educational.

Thanks for posting. It's been a while.

Joe

[David Iannone]

The cut time on that small 3.8" x 16.5" Between all tool paths about 2 hrs. The first of the series signs are 19.5" x 18.5" If I do better toolpath management I think I would be lucky to get it inside of 8 hrs?

My goal is $75 per hr for the machine running. This particular customer has been bringing me large Cypress blanks and having me just do .25 deep flat bottom cuts where I make the hourly rate.

On a 8 hr 3D cut sign 19.5" x 18.5" that comes out to $600 in machining charges. I know that ain't gonna fly (at least not on this project). I am thinking a little like fishing....I fished all day yesterday and didn't get not even a bite. I obviously was giving the wrong bait presentations and/or wrong fishing spots (fishing for Bass with artificial baits 50 degree water temps). If I give the wrong price I will lose the job, or price my machine out so cheap I will be kicking myself in the ass a dozen signs into it......

My initial stab in the dark in the beginning of this post $20 sq/ft 3D cut only comes to $50.05 per small sign that takes 8 hrs. That ain't gonna fly either.

He picked up the small texture sample and loved it. But I told him that I was going to make him a pocketed sample today with no texture. I told him that little sample was 2hrs to machine, and that I could help him be more efficient on this job if we do it a little different with pocketing and spray/roll on textures. He is not to excited about this idea, but I am going to give him prices both ways. 3D machining and also the pocket method. He is doing all painting, finishing and install on the project. I will just cut the raw materials and hand it off.

The thing I have to remember is I just added Aspire about 6 months ago, and the last thing I want to do is introduce 3D carving cheap and give him the wrong idea. I still don't even know much about 3D carving myself.

Will post my pocket samples when done today. At the moment thinking $300 for the little sign carved 3D 8 hrs of full 3D time. The same sign he hands me to pocket and cut letters, probably only 1 hr cut time for both parts? $75 - $100 roughly.

Will post my findings good or bad, since this is my first stab at a large production job there may be others reading that this could help too.

Dave

[bleeth]

With a ballnose or v bit and the right vectors you can cut textures that run quick and look great. Doing those signs with relief file and small stepover is about the slowest way to go. Combine a better strategy with tuning your mill as Brady suggests can turn this into a profitmaker.

[David Iannone]

Thanks Dave,
That's a good point. I will give the texture a bit different thought and try doing some drawing in Aspire tonight.

I just finished the inlay trial. 1st time I ever tried it.......that's horrible. I have had CNC since 2001 and never done this......:) Total Newbie I guess.....
I have just always used my machine for the most basics of making a sign.

The first was cut into MDO, total disaster. too long bit, wrong feed and speed. Bit deflection was bad. Lucky I didnt break the bit. Second I cut out of 1" Duna Board with -.005 offset. It was a TIGHT fit. I will make my final sample tomorrow in the coated piece of Cypress with a Spray rubber texture as Joe suggested. I will have to give it more offset though to allow for paint thickness.

Dave

[joe]

Dave,

Looking good all the way. What I'm enjoying is your improved knowledge and craftsman techniques.

Joe

[David Iannone]

cutting a more simple texture with a .5 ballnose or a 90 degree v bit. Then pocketing letters and border I have all parts for one sign down from 8 hrs to 2 hrs. This includes cutting all the letters too. Getting closer.

More samples to cut this morning.

Dave

[scottp55]

Like both of those Dave!
First might like sanding with something like a Nyalox wheel, "fladder" type, or flutter wheel(might even add a slight "barnboard/sandblasted"look if with the grain)? Second would like almost anything.
Have you tried plugging something like a 3/4" "Bowl and tray" bit?
If any pattern looked good, it would speed it up even more.
Looking good and getting faster:)
scott

[David Iannone]

Here is my best shot at it.......

[David Iannone]

My final sample is made of 1/2" PVC in black and white. Using the texture tool in Aspire, I textured a large area with a Onsrud .5" Ballnose quickly. Then pocket letters with a Onsrud upcut bit, and V-Carve with 90 degree V Carve bit (not sure what brand) and Gerber paint mask before v-carve, and a touch of One Shot Metallic Gold Paint. Cut the Inlay pieces with the same Onsrud upcut bit.

-Texture 30 min
-Pocket Border 6 min
-Pocket text 28 min
-Cut out Inlay border 5 min
-Cut out Sign shape 1 min
-V-carve logo 6 min
-Cut out Inlay letters 30 Min

Total Machine time 1:46 = $131.25 for me to simply cut the parts in his material for a 2.5 sq/ft sign as pictured.

On this job I would like over sized slabs supplied to me a few days ahead of time. I will texture them in large pieces (as Gene suggested). We then pocket them and send back to be painted. All the lettering on each series must be the same height and compression so I can nest them into bunches and cut them in large amounts at a time (as Russ suggested). By this time my job is done and its time to get paid.

It looks good on paper, see how it goes tomorrow.

The letter thickness is messed up. My offsets were not exactly right. I have to get used to small decimal points

Dave

[David Iannone]

close up of the pocket.

[pkirby]

That looks really good Dave! I was curious if you've ever used the black PVC outdoors before? I know it expands quite a bit but it might not matter for smaller signs like this. Also do you think the black color will fade over time?

[David Iannone]

Thanks Paul,
Never have used black PVC outdoors before. But my guess would be it will eventually fade like any other paint, or vinyl products. But I am not a good one to answer the durability stuff. I made this last sample out of the PVC cause I had some of each color sitting there and I thought the contrasting colors would prove to my customer why this project should move in this direction and there was no painting needed so I could fab it up quick....IMO

The end result today is he loved the final sample and is taking it to the decision makers with why this project needs to go this way of fabrication. And my price was fine. Was a good day for me. No matter what way they want it cut, I am confident I will be processing the sheet goods.

Will post as any progress happens.

Dave

[joe]

It's nice to see Paul giving his idea's.

Black PVC is not an exterior grade product. Like you say, it will not hold black and will warp like a potato chip. It's best to know about products prior to suggesting their use.

The High Density PVC's, which are always white, are made for outside can be painted but what's the use for that in this case.

David,
I'm enjoying your progress on this project. I keep watching and learning all the time.

Joe