View Full Version : Giving it your all
I'm loving this little movie about hand craftsmanship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22StGi-tB-I
David Iannone
02-04-2015, 08:58 PM
That's amazing. Seeing work and artistic ability like that humbles me. I would not be in the Sign Business if it were not for computers. I can't draw a thing.
Dave
shilala
02-05-2015, 01:42 PM
He's so right when he said "products need to have a bit of soul to them".
I added the shopbot to my shop so I can do things that I'd otherwise not have time to do.
But there's not a thing I make that I don't take chisels and files and sanding blocks to. Sometimes for days on end.
It matters. Maybe not to anyone else, but to me. I'm not China, I'm Scott Shilala. And when I hand off something I've done, I want that person to see that and feel it. Imperfections and all. :D
dakers
02-05-2015, 05:33 PM
Joe back before cnc routers my wife and i took a trip to Vermont to see Jay Cooke who did spectacular world class hand carving and gold leaf. He went on to make the Jay Cooke primer for HDU that many use. But i marveled at his ability to do most of the signs types we do now with some hand tools.
We were in that part of the country to see the Ward World Champion Waterfowl Carving Competition and Art Festival.
I was so inspired i bought the tools to carving knives and wood burning equp to carve ducks. That was maybe 30 plu years ago. i cut my hands up so badly i gave it up but i did carve the duck head. Funny
http://www.wardmuseum.org/SpecialEvents/WorldChampionship/tabid/115/Default.aspx
What if we looked at Russian and German, turn of the century art similar to the Dantonian image, and gave it a try?
There's so much talent on this forum it wouldn't be a stretch to see some world class images. A few of these in the portfolio might be fun. And it could change one's direction. It could open up significant opportunities and it's no great hurdle.
Keep in mind, if we don't watch out, someday there will be machines capable of this kind of work. Then where would we be?
shop doing something similar...
Gene,
Thanks for backing me up on this topic. Seeing your hand work is the most interesting photo's I've seen in a long time.
Those round carved pieces bring depth and interest, where perfectly machined wooden spheres would make the whole panel look too mechanical.
Now that we're on the topic, I'll be making a couple of signs for a new housing complex. It's one of those upper class project and I'll be using more hand work.
Joe
David Iannone
02-09-2015, 02:07 PM
Gene,
That is very impressive. You guys are getting me fired up with that kind of artistic ability. One of these days I need to buy a set of hand carving tools and try some simple letters in HDU. Looks like fun if you have the vision and talent for it.
Thanks for the photos.
Dave
I think Gene is on the right track of utilizing a combination of tech and human talents. Some things are so monotonous and physically demanding, if a machine can do the bulk of it, great. When human hands generate the final surface, it has a more authentic look. As long as creativity and inspiration drive the tech, I think we can see this continue as a working paradigm. I am less concerned about human obsolescence as I contemplate the following:
- My brother works for a local metal sculptor. The artwork is done in clay, the casting and basic welding/chasing is done by the help, while the last 10% of handwork and finishing touches is done by the artist. No digital fab in this case, but similar reduction of the artist's physical investment while retaining full control.
- Just came from the dentist. He utilized a photo scanner to plot the location then he sculpted a realistic looking crown on screen. In less than 15 minutes, a crown was machined on a cute little CNC. Ultimately, it was still up to the skills/talent of the dentist to craft the digital model, then hand hone and fit into the mouth.
Will there ever be a day where the human talents are obsolete? I rather doubt it.
Ultimately the issue at "hand" is authenticity vs. cost to produce, which I think is why we'll likely see a decent balance of hand vs machine - perhaps we're closer to it than we realize....
jeff
chiloquinruss
02-09-2015, 04:17 PM
My dad was a renowned hand carver and on one of his many trips to Germany he toured a 'hand made carving' plant. What he saw was row after row of duplicating machines making 'blanks' that were 'finished' by the carvers and painters. He said it was fascinating to see the production methods employed in this 'hand made carving' factory. A combination of machines and skilled craftsman. Russ
bleeth
02-09-2015, 04:44 PM
Carvings done by at least one of the NW Tribes are also cut "nearly finished" on a cnc and then the last bit done by hand by tribe-members.
Local guy up there with a Shopbot!!!
I dunno, I take issue with the statement "After all, who would want something made on a machine when it could be hand crafted".
We obviously wouldn't be here if that was the case, there are alot of people who want something made on a machine. There is something to be said for both, they are not mutually exclusive, at least for a majority of folks. [I made alot of hand crafted items BTW along with CNC, sometimes hybrids of both].
I got a camper at a summer campground and often if I get bored I'll go wandering around, drink in hand, and go out socializing with folks sitting around their firepits. I ran into this one guy who fancies himself as a master woodworker, he has a roofed enclosure to his camper than is overfilled with all sorts of stuff he made, just a crazy variety [and most of it junk IMO].
Naturally we started talking about wood, tools ect and eventually i brought up CNC. He really scoffed at that and said hell, anyone can make something on a machine. I said maybe so, but one of your items takes you what, 2 days to 2 weeks to complete, I could probably make about the same in 2 hours and sell it for about as much. He scoffed at that too and it got to the point where he was close to getting insulting, so I walked away.
A few weeks later I walked by again and started talking to other people, someone there saw some of my works before and started talking about it then other folks got really curious about it. I happened to have a few of my things hanging in my trailer so I went back to my camper to refresh my drink and I grabbed a few and walked back.
People were amazed, I had one tribal mask thing carved in zebra wood, even the master was forced to admit it was superb. One chick said OMG I gotta have it, how much you want ? I ended up selling 4 things right there at the firepit, the master was chagrined, I think he was forced to reevaluate his position.
Now I know there are real master wood workers that can produce hand made works of art that are spectacular and get big $$ for them, more power to them, I appreciate art in all forms. But that is not going to make me feel like I've been brought down a notch because I do alot of machine work ,,, As I said, they can take 2 weeks carving their masterpieces, in 2 weeks I can kick out 2 dozen semi masterpieces that will, in the end, profit me more than their will.
Doug,
Please show us what you're doing. Creative work isn't as easily explained with words as can be done with photo's.
Lets see what your doing.
Joe
Brady Watson
02-09-2015, 06:58 PM
Artists have used high-tech tools throughout history to aid them in their work. A prime example of this is the camera obscura (http://www.vanityfair.com/unchanged/2013/11/vermeer-secret-tool-mirrors-lenses) from at least the 15th century - and there are other examples as well.
This topic has come up many times over the years - where the employment of digital fabrication equipment or even power tools, in the creative process, somehow makes the finished work disingenuous. What fans of this team don't seem to realize is that it takes a human, with artistry and skill to translate a thought or concept into some type of physical work. I mean, going by that same type of thinking I guess they would prefer to wash their clothes down in the river? Yeah...thought so! :)
In this day & age, if you don't have any 'digital assistance' - it is very difficult to make a living at your craft. Unless you have made a name for yourself long ago & you're riding on the tails of these successes (Sam Maloof comes to mind), nobody is going to pay you enough per job to make a living. These are very rare cases. These days you have to multiply yourself in order to make money. Robots help to do this...and whether you are machining cabinets or 3D clip art - a human being had to come up with the design in the first place.
The robot is today's apprentice. It gets the work 70-90% complete. The artist is the manager of the robot and the master - who traditionally finished the pieces to make them 'pop'. Thanks to the 'everybody gets a trophy' crowd, labor is really expensive & nobody wants to pay for a master to do everything by hand...especially not at Walmart prices.
Now...How I relate to this sort of thing is, I work with artists on a daily basis. Many are getting into digital fabrication for the first time & need assistance bridging the gap between the 'old world' of analog to the new world of digital fabrication in one form or another. They use scan data for CNC routing, 3D printing, 3D visualization and rendering. Customers send me their physical objects and I scan them to 'get them into the computer'. From there - the original intention of the piece can be used as is or derivative works created from the model.
I've learned a lot by scanning literally thousands of parts over the years - often doing a double take, "What is THAT? It isn't on the original..." Only to find it in fact WAS on the part. Dents, dings, textures, crooked lines and other non-mathematically perfect designs - even if just a little bit - all make the model genuine. I seek to retain this in my work for the customer - which is an advantage using state of the art equipment in a laboratory, compared to consumer type scanners.
If you have a keen eye you can spot the 'plastic' looking designs coming in by the container load these days. This is in large part because it is faster (cheaper) to machine smooth mathematically 'perfect' designs than it is to retain all the good stuff - aka imperfections. Dead designs are totally smooth...they leave you subconsciously thinking, "Something is missing...but I can't put my finger on it." Imperfections keep the eye moving. This is a hallmark of good design.
I've learned that good design is imperfect. That is a reflection of humanity itself.
-B
bleeth
02-09-2015, 07:09 PM
The honored Japanese artisan, whether he is a potter or a wood craftsman, will never output a product that is "perfect". This is considered an affront to the gods. If a particular piece appears to have no flaw than one will be introduced. No mistaking this for total machining. I personally know of no artisan that completes a project and is totally satisfied. There is always room for improvement and often there is no way to implement this improvement without mind to hand involvement. From fine luthier work to cabinets, our mills are just one more tool.
Brady Watson
02-09-2015, 07:13 PM
I personally know of no artisan that completes a project and is totally satisfied. There is always room for improvement and often there is no way to implement this improvement without mind to hand involvement.
Yes Dave - thanks for mentioning this. I call it the builders curse. You, and you alone, know every blessed imperfection or 'sin' on the project.
I didn't know that about the Japanese culture - thanks for that as well.
-B
bleeth
02-09-2015, 07:17 PM
Every day that we learn something is a good day.
I learned about Tapmatics today.
It all goes around.
these panels done on machine then touched by hand tools...stile, rail done by hand, sapele stock 20mm
"Now I know there are real master wood workers that can produce hand made works of art that are spectacular and get big $$ for them, more power to them, I appreciate art in all forms. But that is not going to make me feel like I've been brought down a notch because I do alot of machine work ,,, As I said, they can take 2 weeks carving their masterpieces, in 2 weeks I can kick out 2 dozen semi masterpieces that will, in the end, profit me more than their will."
semi masterpieces...
"The deepest and most lifelike emotion has been expressed, and that's the reason they have taken so long to execute. ”
-Rembrandt
3 months to produce this door to final install...combination of machine and hand carved pieces...http://www.vectric.com/cool-stuff/case-studies/vcp/2014/genecrain/genecraincasestudy.html
like Joe asks...show some photos
"Now I know there are real master wood workers that can produce hand made works of art that are spectacular and get big $$ for them, more power to them, I appreciate art in all forms. But that is not going to make me feel like I've been brought down a notch because I do alot of machine work ,,, As I said, they can take 2 weeks carving their masterpieces, in 2 weeks I can kick out 2 dozen semi masterpieces that will, in the end, profit me more than their will."
semi masterpieces...
"The deepest and most lifelike emotion has been expressed, and that's the reason they have taken so long to execute. ”
-Rembrandt
3 months to produce this door to final install...combination of machine and hand carved pieces...http://www.vectric.com/cool-stuff/case-studies/vcp/2014/genecrain/genecraincasestudy.html
like Joe asks...show some photos
Uh, what is it you guys are asking for, photos of my cnc work, hand work, what ?
Doug,
Please don't think anyone wants to put a craftsman down. What I'd like to see is the work of anyone, no matter what the level. Doesn't matter if person has a jig saw or a million dollar set-up. This only about positive creative growth.
Join in if you wish.
Joe
Let me take my hat off to Shopbot for being so generous by opening up this forum to all kinds of artists and craftsmen. This forum is responsible for the launch of all kinds of businesses by the introduction of their CNC machines. It's been a milestone for many of us. Without this forum, I wouldn't have been able to move my sign business along as I have.
There's a community here. A place to make friends and share information and build life long relationships. Some of my best friends are from here.
Joe
dakers
02-10-2015, 11:54 AM
Joe i have learned alot from you including communcation skills.
one thing you mention i keep forgetting to do is include photos and drawings.
i know what i am saying without them but probably no one else does. Maybe my wife.
Thank You Joe.
Let me take my hat off to Shopbot for being so generous by opening up this forum to all kinds of artists and craftsmen. This forum is responsible for the launch of all kinds of businesses by the introduction of their CNC machines. It's been a milestone for many of us. Without this forum, I wouldn't have been able to move my sign business along as I have.
There's a community here. A place to make friends and share information and build life long relationships. Some of my best friends are from here.
Joe
I echo your sentiments, well said.
For anyone interested, I have 100's of pics of my works here
http://www.camheads.org/search.php?searchid=604875
Many here http://forum.vectric.com/search.php?author_id=7696&sr=posts [some are repeats].
I don't post much of my work here because I don't own a shopbot and figure it would be generally in bad form to post product made on other machines.
I couldn't resist one thread though, 3d plexiglas work is unique and not well known, so I figured a thread about it might inspire others to try
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18228
Hand made things, don't think I have posted any of that on CNC forums for obvious reasons. I can only repeat, I don't think handmade vs machine are mutually exclusive, I don't think one has any lock of creativity of self fulfillment over the other.
Thats me, others are more than free to differ. But to post a link that says "Who would want something made on a machine ??" on a CNC forum, strikes me as odd.
Doug,
Where did you read on this forum "Who would want something made on a machine?
Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)
This thread crossing a few streets...custom works, production works, hobby works. so I looking at it from custom, production standpoint. Shop needs to make a profit so we starting to combine the 2 methods...CNC machining and hand work...on same parts...a lot comes into play here...some stuff off machine and finishing technique looks hand made...some stuff not...we always looking for new ways to produce product client needs with efficiency...like "star" panel I showed...
Doug,
Where did you read on this forum "Who would want something made on a machine?
Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)
Joe, that was one of the things said on the posted video link, no one here said it.
I don't even take that much issue with the statement he made, everyone is entitled to their opinion and pride in craftsmanship ... But quite obviously, there is a decent market for machine made goods as well, and you also get a sense of pride from making something nice by machine is all I'm sayin.
I echo your sentiments, well said.
For anyone interested, I have 100's of pics of my works here
http://www.camheads.org/search.php?searchid=604875
Many here http://forum.vectric.com/search.php?author_id=7696&sr=posts [some are repeats].
I don't post much of my work here because I don't own a shopbot and figure it would be generally in bad form to post product made on other machines.
I couldn't resist one thread though, 3d plexiglas work is unique and not well known, so I figured a thread about it might inspire others to try
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18228
Hand made things, don't think I have posted any of that on CNC forums for obvious reasons. I can only repeat, I don't think handmade vs machine are mutually exclusive, I don't think one has any lock of creativity of self fulfillment over the other.
Thats me, others are more than free to differ. But to post a link that says "Who would want something made on a machine ??" on a CNC forum, strikes me as odd.
http://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19290&hilit=chinese+machines
Doug,
Have you ever owned a SB?
Comments and PICS are always encouraged here.
Dave
No, came close but pulled the trigger on something else, sure would not rule out blue in the future.
I'd feel awkward posting many pics of my works here, I think some would be offended. Lot of knowledgeable guys here which is why I like to browse and occasionally post. At the root, we all have much in common no matter what machine is being used, 90% if not more of methods are identical.
A fraternity can exist between brands, nonetheless I respect sensitivities, and understand the need to keep any chatter about competing brands to a minimum.
http://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19290&hilit=chinese+machines
Ok, gotta ask, what about it ?
"A fraternity can exist between brands, nonetheless I respect sensitivities, and understand the need to keep any chatter about competing brands to a minimum."
...really
I think I have proved beyond a doubt your comments from this Vectric thread...
Yes...a Fraternity can exist between brands...that's why this thread and comments are still up...
David Iannone
02-11-2015, 12:52 AM
"I'd feel awkward posting many pics of my works here, I think some would be offended."
Doug, I thought you were doing the same work as many of us. You would not offend me by posting some pics of your latest projects, and a brief decricription.... or failures.:rolleyes:
Just paint us a picture
Dave
scottp55
02-11-2015, 06:44 AM
Doug, I can think of 4 guys off the top of my head that don't own Shopbots, and I would be VERY disappointed if they ever left the forum as they contribute so much. Keep posting and include pics! :)
scott
Nancy
02-12-2015, 01:31 PM
As Gene said, back to the subject.
Last week I found a new update website www.appalachiansigns.com (http://www.appalachiansigns.com) for two women who are setting all new records. Sarah Evans and Laura Shoemaker have been featured in several publications. I believe they started out with PRT that keeps on going.
When I spoke to them they were pleased to be recognized and open with their idea's. Thumbs up for these guys.
Joe
baby cabinet fronts in process... for local resort
http://www.rosewoodhotels.com/en/las-ventanas-los-cabos
scottp55
02-13-2015, 07:07 AM
Wonderful photo gallery they have!
I can see your stuff fitting right in:)
Wonder who did their pocket doors.
scott
jim shula
02-16-2015, 08:19 PM
I remember the Jay Cooke Sign Shop in Stowe, VT, very well. In the early 90's they were offering three day sign carving classes and I drove over from Maine to take the class. I ended up carving a few signs for myself, but my remodeling business and my general lack of creativity kept me from pursuing it. When I got my shopbot in 2007 I looked for his sign shop on the internet and found that he was offering classes in using cnc machinery to create carved signs. Now I think he's disappeared altogether. The thing I take away from my sign carving class is that now I can carve on the cnc machine with more confidence knowing that if a letter gets screwed up, I can always fix it by hand.
Jim,
Thanks for the reminder about Jay Cooke. The period of time when he conducted the workshop didn't last long. Many of his signs were outstanding and his promotional work was excellent. He was the breaking edge of new things to come in dimensional signs.
For the life of me I can't figure out why he disappeared. Even today he has no website or description of his work. How can such a talented fellow like he is completely drop out?
Joe
GeneMpls
02-17-2015, 03:11 PM
Jay Cooke's All Purpose Sign Primer?
O, great that's the answer!
almost done...only 35 more to do
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