Just picked up ShopBot PRS Alpha

[Plyoboxwarehouse]

Hey Guys,

I just wanted to put up a post regarding my new ShopBot.

I finished the 2 day class at ShopBot on Friday and they loaded up my new machine in the afternoon. Still waiting on a few parts and will be putting together next weekend, hopefully.

I am very excited to be the first, or one of the first to have the new HSD 4hp quick change spindle. It takes HSK tool holders with ER25 collet. I plan on posting pictures of the assembly and hope to give some good feedback on the quick change spindle.

Thanks,
Rob

[Ajcoholic]

Hey Rob
That spindle sounds neat. I have the standard HSD 4 hp on mine. Would love someday to just be able to swap out tools without wrenches.

Looking forward to the description and review.

[Plyoboxwarehouse]

The new quick change spindle is a step below the ATC, but does require a T handle allen wrench for a tool change. It does not require additional pneumatics or software that the ATC needs. The new spindle has an HSK head which grabs the tool holder from inside (the ISO cone holders grip the outside of the holder) which increases the grip on the holder with higher spindle RPM speeds. The set screw required to change the holder moves the forks up/down to release/secure the tool holders.

With tool holders for each bit (or a few of the most used), I believe that you only have to rezero Z once and not with each tool change.

I made the upgrade this Friday while at ShopBot, so they needed a couple of days to get the spindle ready to send me. I'll get more details on the specifics at a later date.

[Ajcoholic]

The new quick change spindle is a step below the ATC, but does require a T handle allen wrench for a tool change. It does not require additional pneumatics or software that the ATC needs. The new spindle has an HSK head which grabs the tool holder from inside (the ISO cone holders grip the outside of the holder) which increases the grip on the holder with higher spindle RPM speeds. The set screw required to change the holder moves the forks up/down to release/secure the tool holders.

With tool holders for each bit (or a few of the most used), I believe that you only have to rezero Z once and not with each tool change.

I made the upgrade this Friday while at ShopBot, so they needed a couple of days to get the spindle ready to send me. I'll get more details on the specifics at a later date.

Sounds like a similar setup of the Benz spindle I was checking out in Atlanta last summer.

When I do have to change my spindle, Id like to go with something similar - having several tools you can swap out in seconds and not have to re zero. That would be cool.

[Davo]

can you upgrade a regular alpha with a router to a toolchange spindle?

does it automatically rezero?

[Plyoboxwarehouse]

If you currently have a router, you will need to add a VFD for speed control. There would be some wiring changes in the control box to bring voltage to 220v also. As far as zeroing goes, the tool has to be zeroed at least once so the tool height is stored on the tool database. After that, I don't think you need to do it again if you keep the bit in the tool holder.

[Ajcoholic]

I found the blog and video on the Shopbot site. No price though. I wonder how much more than the standard 4hp HSD the manual quick change is?

I'm going to assume my current VFD is fine and is just have to buy the new spindle.

Again I look forward to your review when you get it up and running.

[Plyoboxwarehouse]

Can you post a link to the video? I found the blog, but no video. Thanks, Rob

[Ajcoholic]

http://www.shopbotblog.com/

just scroll down under the custom pressure foot. the vid is embedded

[Davo]

where can I get the brush shroud to replace my rubber one?

http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/pressureFoot_1-300x169.jpg

[steve_g]

just scroll down under the custom pressure foot. the vid is embedded
Apparently the video isn’t available to those of us using IE11…
SG

[Ajcoholic]

Im using firefox but just tried IE and its there for me...

[Ajcoholic]

Here you go... I just discovered right click asllows a grab of the youtube url...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tMZ7uUwAo2I

[steve_g]

Thanks, Andrew!
SG

[MogulTx]

Hmmmmm. I wonder if I can buy a set up for my existing 4HP HSD spindle....

That would assist me a great deal from time to time!!

[Ajcoholic]

Hmmmmm. I wonder if I can buy a set up for my existing 4HP HSD spindle....

That would assist me a great deal from time to time!!

Im going to "guess" that since our current 4HP standard spindles have the shaft milled to accept an ER25 collet directly, and this new spindle has a shaft that is milled to accept the HSK C32 tapered tool holder, we are looking at replacing the entire spindle.

[chiloquinruss]

I watched the video, question, I didn't see them re-zero after tool change, is that part of setting up each tool? Once the tool is set then the code knows? Thanks. Russ

[coryatjohn]

Frankly, I don't see a huge advantage over just zeroing when a tool is changed. There's the added cost of one tool holder per bit, that's got to be a lot and one still has to manually change it. For me, zeroing takes maybe half a minute.

I suppose if I didn't own a 4hp ($4k!) spindle already, it might be slightly interesting. The extra cost of the tool holders is probably not insignificant.

[Ajcoholic]

Frankly, I don't see a huge advantage over just zeroing when a tool is changed. There's the added cost of one tool holder per bit, that's got to be a lot and one still has to manually change it. For me, zeroing takes maybe half a minute.

I suppose if I didn't own a 4hp ($4k!) spindle already, it might be slightly interesting. The extra cost of the tool holders is probably not insignificant.

John,
I can see much less wear and tear on collets, the spindle (mine is already showing the nose where the wrench goes over the flats worn in three years quite a bit) and also far less time to zero each tool.

Sometimes I am doing multiple parts, with multiple tool changes (up to 4 is common). Also, Often I have to slew the head over to the portion of the material that is still uncut and where the zero plate will lie flat. So, for each change I have to drive the head over to the proper place, raise it up and remove the bit, reinstall the new bit and re zero, and continue. Now do that several times per part, several times per hour and it gets both tiresome, introduces accelerated wear and also introduces greatly the chance that something will be done by the operator incorrectly.

In a working environment, where you are equating time=money, this might be worthwhile. I wish I could remove the tool, place it aside, clean the collet,, insert the new tool and tighten & run the zero routine in 30 seconds... not going to happen in my shop and I think I'm pretty efficient at it. I imagine it takes me several minutes to swap a tool and re zero then carry on. That can be a lot of time lost per hour when doing a project requiring several tool changes and you are doing several parts per hour. Sometimes I figure 1/2 the time is spent changing tools and rezeroing when the actual run time in between is not very long.

Lets assume you can change and rezero a tool in one minute (which I doubt). Now take a part that requires three tools (like making a faux RP door). Maybe machine time is 3 minutes per tool - just making up times here dont hold me to it. So that is 12 minutes total time with 3 minutes spent changing tools, or 25% right? Every 4 hours, one is lost to tool change and re zero.

Now realistically, that one minute is more like two or three if you take the time to remove the collet and at least blow out the dust, and quickly inspect the collet and tool shank, etc. Take 2 minutes. So now for that same operation we have 15 minutes total with 6 minutes spent changing and rezeroing tools - that is 40% time. Every 4 hrs you are spending 1 hr and 36 minutes changing tools and rezeroing.

If this new way to swap tools can cut that time in half - which I believe would be conservative.. then you are gaining quite a bit of time.

Now, if you are cutting for several hours using the same bit in the collet and changing tools infrequently, it will make no sense.

Each case will be different of course...

As for the tool holders, I think they are somewhere in the few hundred range per unit.

Just my thoughts...

[coryatjohn]

Yea, mine is a hobby environment. I can waste my entire day just vacuuming up the shop. I can see how it would be useful in your situation.

[harryball]

I'm watching this closely. If I understand this correctly, you load the bit once and zero to your reference, in my case the table, and number the bit putting it back in the box. Somewhere you'd have to let the system know which numbered bit is loaded so it could pull the referenced zero for that tool. When you replace the tool, you re-zero and record the new values.

This would be great for multi-bit jobs where the table isn't very accessible to re-zero or when doing 3D production work where you are grinding away your zero reference as you work. Yep, you could know your material is 3" thick and adjust the offset based on your zero to the table top.

I would use two of them fairly constantly and it would be a great timesaver. I have come to have a disdain for tool changes and re-zeroing and try to design projects around a single bit as much as possible when it involves production. My bat house kits are a 2 bit job. I can cut 50 kits comfortably in a day. That translates to 18 run jobs so all total that's 36 bit loads and zeroing. But it's not always about the bit change, what chaps my rump is when I re-zero and for whatever reason I end up with an onion skin on my parts when I'm done. That generally happens at least once and it is very annoying.

I can see great value in quick change "pre-zeroed" tooling.


Oh, and congrats on your new bot!

-Bat Man! :-)



/RB

[Plyoboxwarehouse]

ShopBot is quoting me $250 per tool holder, however One of my local suppliers can get the HSK tool holder to me for $180 each.

[David Iannone]

That looks like a nice setup. One day when I can afford a spindle, I think I have to look at getting the quick change spindle collet setup.

Dave

[Justin G]

John,
I can see much less wear and tear on collets, the spindle (mine is already showing the nose where the wrench goes over the flats worn in three years quite a bit) and also far less time to zero each tool.

Sometimes I am doing multiple parts, with multiple tool changes (up to 4 is common). Also, Often I have to slew the head over to the portion of the material that is still uncut and where the zero plate will lie flat. So, for each change I have to drive the head over to the proper place, raise it up and remove the bit, reinstall the new bit and re zero, and continue. Now do that several times per part, several times per hour and it gets both tiresome, introduces accelerated wear and also introduces greatly the chance that something will be done by the operator incorrectly.

In a working environment, where you are equating time=money, this might be worthwhile. I wish I could remove the tool, place it aside, clean the collet,, insert the new tool and tighten & run the zero routine in 30 seconds... not going to happen in my shop and I think I'm pretty efficient at it. I imagine it takes me several minutes to swap a tool and re zero then carry on. That can be a lot of time lost per hour when doing a project requiring several tool changes and you are doing several parts per hour. Sometimes I figure 1/2 the time is spent changing tools and rezeroing when the actual run time in between is not very long.

Lets assume you can change and rezero a tool in one minute (which I doubt). Now take a part that requires three tools (like making a faux RP door). Maybe machine time is 3 minutes per tool - just making up times here dont hold me to it. So that is 12 minutes total time with 3 minutes spent changing tools, or 25% right? Every 4 hours, one is lost to tool change and re zero.

Now realistically, that one minute is more like two or three if you take the time to remove the collet and at least blow out the dust, and quickly inspect the collet and tool shank, etc. Take 2 minutes. So now for that same operation we have 15 minutes total with 6 minutes spent changing and rezeroing tools - that is 40% time. Every 4 hrs you are spending 1 hr and 36 minutes changing tools and rezeroing.

If this new way to swap tools can cut that time in half - which I believe would be conservative.. then you are gaining quite a bit of time.

Now, if you are cutting for several hours using the same bit in the collet and changing tools infrequently, it will make no sense.

Each case will be different of course...

As for the tool holders, I think they are somewhere in the few hundred range per unit.

Just my thoughts...

Andrew,
If you look at my threads in my profile, I made an off table zero plate for rezeroing my bits after tool changes and set up a custom code using my c9. It allows me to press c9, which jogs the spindle over to a convenient point, I change my bit and hit enter and then it goes and zeroes it self, then returns to home waiting for me to load a partfile. This of course is zeroing to the bed only, but if you use the same thickness of material, i'm sure you could write a separate custom file for that as well. IF you would like help or have questions I would be willing to send files, pictures, etc.

[Justin G]

Andrew,
If you look at my threads in my profile, I made an off table zero plate for rezeroing my bits after tool changes and set up a custom code using my c9. It allows me to press c9, which jogs the spindle over to a convenient point, I change my bit and hit enter and then it goes and zeroes it self, then returns to home waiting for me to load a partfile. This of course is zeroing to the bed only, but if you use the same thickness of material, i'm sure you could write a separate custom file for that as well. IF you would like help or have questions I would be willing to send files, pictures, etc.

I forgot to mention, this whole process takes MAYBE one minute, maybe.

[Kyle Stapleton]

I would like to see the pictures and files if you are sharing.