is this the right software?

[snowstorm]

My beige shopbot control box has a Stamp on the inside cover(2001, 1, 21)
The circuit board says "Shopbot controls V3.30

Am i looking at the correct software
*For older PRT ShopBots (2000 - 2004 with xplor 52 Control Cards [using original Atmel microcontroller)


I have an old Acer hard drive running Windows vista laying around. but this little detail
(DOS Version for PRT ShopBots (also runs in Windows 95/98/ME; *this version can not be used with Windows NT/2000/XP/7/8)

makes me think i need to find an older computer to run this shopbot

is this true
sorry if the questions a little confusing i'm trying to confugure the shopbot software to the right hard drive

[Brady Watson]

You can run that tool on any modern computer with a few tweaks. That's what's known as a 3G control. The newest software that supports it is SB 3.4.27 - Download it and install it. You'll need to install the firmware as well to match, via the UI command. 98SE is the last version of Win that will support DOS for running SB2 properly.

If your computer doesn't have a serial port, you'll need a USB to serial converter. The only one I recommend is from IOGear. You can get one on Amazon or from SB directly. Part number GUC232A. Install the drivers first, plug in USB cable (not longer than 12 feet) and you are good.

-B

[snowstorm]

thank you for pointing me in the right direction

[snowstorm]

A friend of mine was thowing out a 2007 Acer T690.
I took it off his hands thinking i could put it to use on my 2001 shopbot machine.
Aside from the fact that i recently discovered it has no hard drive, until i get one, I think the mental block im having is that i need to reload or reboot windows 98se to be able to run sb 3.4.27

Can and is it worth upgrading(advantages) to the PRT 4g Control Board.
like, send mine in for an exchange, looks like they give you some credit towards the 4g.
is that an option, or will that mess with older motors drivers.


**so i guess i'm at a crossroad as to which route to pursue**


Sorry if this has been covered a million times. I'm just not sure what you can get away with in the electronic department

[Brady Watson]

Hold out for a better computer. Buy a refurbished one from NewEgg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=refurbished+desktop&N=-1&isNodeId=1) that is at least 1.5Ghz (pretty much impossible to get one this slow these days) and 4 GB of RAM. All you need is a monitor & you will be propelled into modern era ;)

This one is $90 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883281154&cm_re=refurbished_desktop-_-83-281-154-_-Product) (Just as an example, not as an endorsement) - Try to avoid Dell as they are more often unreliable for running a ShopBot due to cheap USB hardware. I'd also avoid eMachines and other 'cheapie' brands. HP, Lenovo, IBM are a few that are known to be good for running these tools. There are plenty of other examples out there. I'd take that other computer to the recycler's and put it out of it's misery.

The refurb will run either 3G controls (via USB to serial converter - IOGear GUC232A ONLY) or 4G controls at full speed. There is no need to run DOS again or SB2.x, so you aren't losing anything by migrating to SB3. Your tool will sound a bit smoother from DOS to SB3 and move a little faster due to improved ramping strategies, but don't expect a huge increase from 3G controls. The 4G controls are very much worth the investment. It will breathe new life into your tool & you'll be excited again.

-B

[David Iannone]

Brady,

I have ran dell since I started with 3g. Never had real comm problems until my 4g upgrade. Ok, guess it makes sense since machine was not ever moving fast, so now that things are being upgraded, the hickups show up. I did put a faster smaller Dell in place with no different results. I understand I could put a dedicated USB card based on what I have read, but now I am getting nervous about throwing money down a chipmunk hole.

Here is the thing. At this point I am willing to spend $90 on the link you suggest in a second. I am doing trade for an IT company that just moved in a few suites down from me so I figure now is my chance to setup the "ideal" control CPU. Is that the one I should get now and let him sweep clean?

I want to put the comm errors to rest once and for all.

If you are ever in the Atlanta area let me know, I would like to know what your charge would be to come to my shop and do a site survey on my machine.

Thanks,
Dave

[Brady Watson]

Hold out for a better computer. Buy a refurbished one from NewEgg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=refurbished+desktop&N=-1&isNodeId=1)...

This one is $90 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883281154&cm_re=refurbished_desktop-_-83-281-154-_-Product) (Just as an example, not as an endorsement)...HP, Lenovo, IBM are a few that are known to be good for running these tools.

Follow the first link and find one YOU like at a budget your are happy with. In all the installs I did only a handful of Dells were up to the task of running a Bot @ full speed reliably. I would then take a trip to Staples and buy a USB PCI expansion card from Staples (anywhere in the US) and a 2.0 hub. That pretty much cured all ails.

However, Staples no longer sells them (Belkin brand I think) - in any brand and USB 3.0 is not recommended last I checked. So...it's better to start with something other than a Dell. If you want an 'ultimate' machine, build your own. That's what I did for my Alpha machines. Just pick your case, mobo, processor, RAM, hard drive, vid card etc - and build your own deal. It's a little more money, but you know it's all premium stuff - and totally upgradable.

The Shuttle motherboard, AMD processor and RAM I put in one of the computers attached to a Bot has been running (aside from a cooked hard drive) for at least 10 years now...Still rockin XP Pro - still can cut over 150 hrs without so much as a hiccup.

-B

PS - Am I to expect you @ McGrew's? It would be nice to meet you.

[David Iannone]

Brady,
McGrew's would be great, at the point I am at with Aspire, reworking old bot. I am sure my mind would explode from all the great things to be heard and try to absorb......:D Not to mention seeing newer model shopbots than mine and the advancements that have been made. I don't think I can pull it off this year though. Is any parts of it going to be recorded or streamed live over the net by chance? If anything like that is possible I would be willing to "pay to log in" so to speak?

As far as my control PC goes......its like musical chairs. Thank you for the Dell info. I will not use a dell on my control CPU. I realize I could make it work, but as I am trying to upgrade too many things at once I got to start finishing one at a time and prioritize. And today I decided control CPU is my goal of the day. Loading SB control on it now. Will see how it goes.

The attached pic is the last one I got sitting around not being used. Its a Tigerdirect build from a few years ago. I just put Win 7 Pro on it. Its a AMD Phenom 8250e Triple Core Processor 1.91 GHz 4 GB ram 64 bit os. Pic is attached. IT guy did go through it did memory test and ended up having to put a new HD in it because when he was running tests it died......crazy right?

If this don't work, then the gloves are coming off and I am going to have one built. tired of chasing my tail on what seems should be an easy fix.

Dave

[Brady Watson]

Hey Dave,
Too bad you won't be able to make it. I don't know if there will be a live transmission or not...but truth be told, that really wouldn't be the same as actually being there. I think the most valuable thing is meeting and sharing with people in between the acts & dinner etc.

Good luck with getting your CPU together. That looks like a mini ITX setup. You can always score a refurb ATX PC with warranty from NewEgg. I've been using IBM/Lenovo refurbs for years on various Bots.

-B

[David Iannone]

Thanks Brady,

Yeah, something will be done different tomorrow. That CPU I tried earlier was no different. Locked up and lost comm right off the bat. I then removed wireless mouse and keyboard and went back to plug in plain microsoft usb keyboard and mouse, still no dice. Changed to different usb ports some on the motherboard and some on the separate usb card installed. I am running Sb3.8.26 with the 4g board. I figured to stay with the latest version once I put the new board in.

I am googling shuttle motherboard now and reading about them.

I also just grabbed an old Acer netbook my daughter doesnt use any more. gonna load SB on that and try it in the AM. What the heck, it cant be worse than what i've done already. Had to just step away from the machine and leave earlier. Was thinking about my old computers (junk) and thought about picking up my heavy hammer and fixing them for the last time.

I promised myself I would stop breaking things though.......:eek:

Dave

[Brady Watson]

Try downloading and installing v3.6.46 and also run UI to install the firmware to match (you have been doing this all along, right?...running the UI command before trying to connect to the tool?) If not do it with 3.8.26 and if still no go, install & UI 3.6.46

Grab ANY USB self-powered hub & plug it into your USB port. Plug the USB from the Bot into the hub. Now try it. Do NOT use BLUE USB 3.0/"SS" ports, if equipped on the motherboard.

I am also assuming that the USB cable itself is no longer than 12' between control box and computer, right? If trying to put computer and control box in one case...put a 10-12' long USB cable between them or the timing will never be right. I mentioned this before...not sure if you got it.

-B

[David Iannone]

Brady,
Yes, definitely got it about the timing when you said before. Thank you. They are not going in the box until I get things worked out, and when they do, not gonna take them out of cases, just take the one side off each case. The back of the silver box is perforated.......and good news, think I got it solved.

Just for the Halibut, I did hook up the netbook this morning with 3.6.46. No good. LOL it was stalling the machine sounding like grinding gears. But we knew that was gonna happen I guess. Had to do it just cause, well, why not? :D

On the new/old Tigerdirect CPU I couldnt get to work yesterday, Uninstalled 3.8.26, Loaded 3.6.46 and updated firmware (yep, been keeping the firmware straight with all this CPU shuffle). The USB going from SB Control Box to Control CPU is the standard one that came with the 4g board upgrade and it less than 10'. I had a staples powered usb laying around, hooked it up......BINGO

Lately I have been feeling a lot like "Cable Rob Lowe"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXBEODlyI0w

But I think I got it......Thanks Bro and thank you to this forum and everyone's input along the way. I think it was Dave R. that was the first to suggest 3.6.46 for my PRT months ago. I should have listened. I sometimes have the habit of having to learn the hard way.

Short video below of my machine air cutting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXBEODlyI0w


P.S. with 3.6.46 there is no stalling when pushing keys on keyboard as fast as I want......why with 3.8.26 would it lock the machine up with quick keyboard commands? I will just chalk it up to I have an older PRT with 4g and belong staying with 3.6.46. I am sure the new Alphas are fine on the newest SB control?

Oh, machine sounds smoother too, and it will jog at 8ips with keyboard moving around but 3.8.26 would only jog at 6ips max with keyboard.

Will be running the snot out of machine all this week with air cuts and long files.

Dave

[David Iannone]

Sorry, pasted the same link twice......Duh
Here is the machine running. Forum timed out and would not let me edit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYVFd4Wg6dU


Dave

[bleeth]

For a PRT there is no reason to jump to 3.8 (I know a couple guys out there disagree). 3.6.46 IMHO is one of the best, most stable versions out there.
I run my "new" Alpha on it with no issues. With a Dell. Black Vipered to hell and gone. 20 seconds or less to boot and 10 seconds after sign in ready to go.

[JimDav]

[snip]
P.S. with 3.6.46 there is no stalling when pushing keys on keyboard as fast as I want......[snip] Dave

Dave - Question - I have a PRTAlpha. Control card went out. SB sent a new one and with Franks help, replaced it. Was suggested I go from SB3.4.25 to SB3.6.46 as you did. Now some of the drop down menus don't function. For example on the ZERO dropdown and selecting the z zero routine, the green, 'LOAD PROGRAM' box lights up very briefly but nothing happens. Do you have a similar situation or do all the drop downs work for you? This was last week and haven't gotten to test it much more yet. No one at the camp in Tallahassee on Saturday had an answer why mine won't work now.

Also, did you have to re-create your tool paths for the new software update? It appears I do. When running the previously created files the machine never started at 0,0 and when starting the next file the machine started at the point where it was sitting. Frank even had me add a JH line to the original file and watch for it to execute. That made no difference. After creating a new file for a test it worked fine. Again have not had time to test further. As a former IT person makes essentially no sense that creating a new .sbp file with the same version of VCarvePro would change anything.

[David Iannone]

Hi Jim,
Man I wish I had the answers, but I will tell you what I know as of right now.

Until sometime middle last year I have had my SB PRT running the old 3g board same it came with since I got it in 2001. Back then the control software ran in DOS, but had a graphical looking interface, you had to use the keyboard to open and run your cut file. To this day the same commands like JH, C2, Z2, K, are my most common used. So I am quick on the keyboard usually. I used the DOS control for a long time, finally upgraded to whatever the first windows based version (forget what it was) and never changed a thing, and had very little problem.

When I upgraded to 4g board last year, in the instructions it said to use the latest software. So I did. I had read here that 3.6.46 was good for my style PRT. I should have listened.

Frank at Shopbot is very good. He has helped me numerous times over the years.

I am not sure about the drop downs, I just loaded 3.6.46 for first time today, and for all my testing today (ran machine for about 5 hrs air cutting part file after part file) Not even so much as a cough. I almost never use the mouse on the drop down menus. Only thing in SB I use the mouse for is the load part file green button. But I have a dedicated control computer. My files are created in front office and transffered via thumb drive, then copied to desktop of control CPU. I remove thumbdrive, open and cut file, then delete file from desktop.

As for recreating toolpaths, I don't understand that one. But I can tell you, after loading 3.6.46 for first time today and all the air cutting I did, I pulled cut files off the design computer up front from 2 years ago and from 2 weeks ago and ran them all no problem. I even ran some at 10ips ms and js just so I could listen to the ramping in the air. It has never sounded so good.

This is just what I have found for my unique issue.

Hope any of this helps,

Dave

[bleeth]

I don't use dropdowns for things like zeroing so I never checked that out. I have had no issue running older created programs, although I don't do much of that either.
Are you sure you correctly loaded firmware?

[Brady Watson]

Sorry, pasted the same link twice......Duh
Here is the machine running. Forum timed out and would not let me edit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYVFd4Wg6dU


Dave


Cool - So you are good now?

Sounds like it's ready for work :p

-B

[snowstorm]

Wow lots of know how here, great to see,
Thanks bradywatson,
I'm going follow your advise and just recycle that old acer, and upgrade to something newer and stronger.
The only reason i grabbed the old acer was because i though it would have been perfectly matched, old cnc-old computer

but since it appears thats not the case, moving forward with a stronger computer and newer software can be matched to the older PRT.

I'll gladly spend a couple extra $$ to get a rock solid set-up cause it seems you really know what your talking about

I'll check back once i get a little closer to being set up,
So much to learn i wonder if i'll ever get this thing up and running, Set-up, software, cad, cam, g-code,
One big bowl of spaghitti :)

[Brady Watson]

Wow lots of know how here, great to see,
Thanks bradywatson,
I'm going follow your advise and just recycle that old acer, and upgrade to something newer and stronger.
The only reason i grabbed the old acer was because i though it would have been perfectly matched, old cnc-old computer

but since it appears thats not the case, moving forward with a stronger computer and newer software can be matched to the older PRT.

I'll gladly spend a couple extra $$ to get a rock solid set-up cause it seems you really know what your talking about

I'll check back once i get a little closer to being set up,
So much to learn i wonder if i'll ever get this thing up and running, Set-up, software, cad, cam, g-code,
One big bowl of spaghitti :)

You're welcome! ;)

Don't worry...That PRT is pretty easy to figure out. The spaghetti isn't quite as confusing as you think. Just make sure that all the wires that will be on the moving gantry to the control box are neat and secure with proper strain relief. This will prevent a LOT of headaches later. It is the number one 'problem' with CNC routers - sloppy wiring.

You'll have 4 motor cables. 2 Red for X (X2 being at the front of machine, X1 at back), Blue for Y, White for Z. If the tool has accessories like a Zzero plate and proximity switches, you'll wire them to the blue input terminal block on the board. Zzero (if you include 5v for the probe) will wire up white to ground, black to input 1, and red to 5v. Prox switches for that board - both black wires twist together and go into input 3, green to ground, and red to 5v. This wiring may vary if you have newer prox switches. The only other thing is the e-stop. 2 wires from it...Put one end in ground, the other in input 4. E-stop must be connected or the tool won't move.

Load up SB3, run UR to select the machine, then run the UI command to install the firmware on the board. Make sure you select a tool in UR with the 'Old Stop' in the name. If input 4 flashes when you first connect, type in VN and change the e-stop to an 'open' type switch. Then it should stop blinking and you can move the tool around using the keypad by typing K into the console. Then arrow keys for XY movement, Page Up/Dn for Z.

There isn't a PDF showing wiring for that 3G control, but the accessories wire up exactly like the Alpha one does. Here's the PRTAlpha Assembly Manual (http://www.shopbottools.com/ShopBotDocs/files/AssemblyBinder060828.pdf) see pages 38 & 39.

-B

[JimDav]

Dave - thanks for taking the time to reply. I suspect my situation is unique to me. The drop downs aren't major but the bot starting from the current location is/was. THAT is very strange. However, on the bright side, with more knowledge now, I was already going to redo the tool paths as the jobs return. Yes, Frank is great. He has helped me several times in the past year. Ironically, he grew up several houses from my grandparents in Pennsylvania but didn't know them. They may even have been gone by the time he was there. Small world.

[David Iannone]

Cool - So you are good now?

Sounds like it's ready for work :p

-B

Yes Sir.....The problem IS solved IMO. Been running air cuts of various files nonstop from the time I get to the shop, till the time I leave. No glitches at all. I am hiting the e-stop, randomly quiting file, and restarting with quick keyboard commands. Can't freeze it up. no missing comm, and no lost steps. This is great news and for anyone else out there with issues, never give up.

It is actually funny, if I could keep my Bot running as much as I keep my digital printer running, boy oh boy. That day is coming though. But until then I think I am going to just keep running old job files, and creating new ones to just run the machine all day while I work in the front office area. There is nothing like hearing those steppers chirping from the back room. Also, I am finding the "sweet" spots so to speak accidentally in various files ms since I am varying ms and js all over the place at times. There is only one way to gain trust back in my machine and that is to run it. If I don't have work for it, then I will let it practice. Customers like to see CNC moving.

In summary, what finally fixed it was a combo of upgrading my control CPU, adding powered usb hub, and backing down from 3.8.26 and installing 3.6.46.
I will update in about a week more of nonstop running and let this thread know if its still rockin and rollin.

Dave