feedback wanted

[steve_g]

I’ve got a Slab of wood I’m going to use for a bench… It has a crack or split and I’m trying to decide how to deal with it. I'd like to leave it natural, but don’t want slivers in little fingers or big butts.
In the past, I’ve used bow tie inserts, but am trying to decide if other avenues are better.
I’m considering doing a contrasting wood total insert.
If I use the total insert, should I mimic the existing split? Would something else be more interesting? Like a lightning bolt!
Oh, by the way, the wood is Pecan and the insert I’m considering is Mesquite.
Is the V-Carve or inlay laces too whimsical?

SG

[Brady Watson]

What's the matter with JPEG/JPGs? Why PDF?

In order to view a PDF you have to download it...A JPG etc you can just view without downloading.

I feel like this sudden PDF thing is like the Seinfeld episode where people start eating candy bars with a knife & fork (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxB-H6f3crY)...:rolleyes:

-B

[scottp55]

1 vote for "bench with insert repair"
OR
A lot of elbow grease with cloth sanding paper to smooth it a bit and maybe a "Vinlay" of a grove of bare trees(or something like my "Branch" wedge) to act as Butterfly wedges?
Should keep you out of trouble for a few days:)
scott

[Kyle Stapleton]

What's the matter with JPEG/JPGs? Why PDF?

In order to view a PDF you have to download it...A JPG etc you can just view without downloading.

I feel like this sudden PDF thing is like the Seinfeld episode where people start eating candy bars with a knife & fork (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxB-H6f3crY)...:rolleyes:

-B

How do you eat them? With your hands.

[steve_g]

Sorry about the PDFs I didn’t think about having to down load them… I was having a horrible, terrible, very bad day trying to resize my images! I finally found the Specs (244.1K) for .JPG’s and may get it figured out… I didn’t used to have problems…
SG

[Brady Watson]

Google 'Windows Image Resizer' - it is a re-written Windows PowerToy. You install it. Lasso around a bunch of images or folder and right click - Resize Pictures. It asks you if you want small, medium or large and you click to process. It then spits out resized pics into whatever folder you want. It doesn't get any easier...

-B

[steve_g]

Thanks Brady… That was painless!
I’m reposting the images to test that all is working…
SG

[garyb]

Cut the spilt out and rejoin the 2 halfs, patches and infills stand out.
we do this with cedar slabs all the time
Incidentally your pdf files pop right open in less than a second here
Gary

[David Iannone]

Steve,
I can't recommend any way to use the piece, but whatever you make, please post a pic of the finished product. I know it will be something very cool.

I like rendering #3 idea though.

Dave

[dmidkiff]

I prefer the dog bone or butterfly and leave it natural, but if you want to keep splinters out, then the lightening bolt or the insert repair would be the choice. Have you considered epoxy or even colored epoxy for splinter free patch?

[steve_g]

“whatever you make, please post a pic”
I should have posted this picture before… It would have given you a better idea of the scope of the project and possibly influenced recommendations!
I have access to a mills castoffs, often in various stages of spalting. This piece is intended as a “Rough” or “ranch” type furnishing. The legs are ½ round slabs, lots of worm holes all around and live edges. It was my thought to highlight the split rather than hide it. If it was going to be a “fine” piece of furniture, I’d likely do as Gary B suggested and cut out the split. I really liked Scotts “tree trunk” inlay and will do something similar soon!
In the end… I’m leaning toward the clear epoxy as Dave suggested!
Next question… How will epoxy respond to a slab of questionable MC? The tree was dead standing when cut, I’ve had it in storage going on a year now. Next purchase should be a moisture meter!
SG

[srwtlc]

I feel like this sudden PDF thing is like the Seinfeld episode where people start eating candy bars with a knife & fork (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxB-H6f3crY)...:rolleyes:

NO SOUP FOR YOU, COME BACK IN 1 YEAR! ;)

On the whimsical thought, how about a zipper?

[steve_g]

I was discouraged from using resins or epoxy by a sales rep because of moisture concerns. I’m told that unless the wood is bone dry, it’ll bubble, steam and look bad… Anyone ever add coloring to bondo?
SG

[Brady Watson]

Meh...If you seal the inner walls of the crack first, then there should be no issue with moisture. Depending on what you use, there are different procedures and issues when using clear resins. Polyester can get tacky. SmoothOn stuff really needs to be vacuum degassed and poured in a very thin stream & it's wicked toxic...not sure about the 'Krystal Klear' tabletop stuff - pouring in sections/layers.

The only surefire way to tell what will ultimately fill it it properly is to create a test in some scrap of similar material and try it.

I would avoid bondo or anything else polyester based unless you just want to arbitrarily fill it in. I would use an epoxy based filler - either pre-made (Fiberglast) or mix up my own with colorant/dye, epoxy laminating resin and dry filler (wood flour, microballons, milled glass fibers etc via West System).

Check out http://www.epoxy.com/ and see what they have for this application. There are many, many options for this.

-B

[gene]

I like the shoe laces

[Joe Porter]

I like #3 the best. It is understated and elegant, but maybe experiment with some different color choices, but stay in line with the over all color of the wood...joe

[mtylerfl]

I like the shoelace idea the best, too.

[Tim Lucas]

I would use a 2 part epoxy - this table was not completely dry and I slowly filled the voids - to fill the crack you have build a dam with plastic - I found the black plastic works better - mix a little at a time and filler up - plastic under it will help to retain the mix - once you get the bottom filled it will go faster - a torch will help it release the bubbles. In some deep areas I even put some brass dust so you could see the depth.
Tim
2428824289

[pixl8ed]

How about 2 part epoxy mixed with glow in the dark powder?
http://www.instructables.com/id/Glow-table/
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24290&stc=1

[Burkhardt]

I would be concerned about a straight Epoxy fill if there is any chance that the wood is still going to move (and I am sure it will with changing room humidity). In that case you will get new cracks between the wood and the epoxy.

If you really want to do this you could insert bow ties or other cross inlays (even threaded rods) from below where it can not be seen to stabilize the width of the crack. That would give the filling a better chance to hold on to the crack surfaces.

[scottp55]

3 "Butterflies" in ascending size to prevent crack from moving, and Then epoxy:) :)
Nice Tim!!
scott

[shilala]

I'd go with 1-3 butterflies, make them in a shape that compliments the wood, and put them in a straight line rather than staggering them all over.
You can make the butterflies bigger, and they don't need to be centered on the crack.
I don't think I'd fill the crack with anything. I'd just clean it up and stabilize it and poly it. Keep it natural.
I'd probably use the same type of wood for the butterflies, too. I wouldn't want them to stand out, just add interest. I sure wouldn't want to make them a focal point, which is what will happen if they're a different color.
In the same color/type of wood, folks think "craftsman" and "look how cool that is!!!"

You could also make a thickish bowtie that reaches almost all the way across the piece, and duplicate it on the other end so that it matches.
In that instance, you may be able to get away with a little different color for contrast, but I wouldn't go too far. The same wood with a touch of stain may be more than enough, I'd probably go with no stain.
You could use almost any shape. I'd use a long, straight piece with a ball on each end. Hold it back an inch or so from the outside edges.
Simple, elegant, and strong.

[bleeth]

Should you go an epoxy fill route if this piece is to be outdoors it needs proper UV protection or the epoxy will decompose. I believe there is epoxy top coat with UV inhibitor in it now, but I have no personal experience with it. For clearcoating outside marine use over epoxy I like Linear poly-urethane best, like Awl-Grip Foxfire (although it's not cheap and requires respirator when using). Once cured it's like bulletproof. Epoxy is much more friendly to wood movement than polyester. This is why it is used in boat building. But, it is used for thin planks laid up in a criss-cross essentially making shaped plywood (cold molding) or edgegluing thin and narrow sticks and then coated with fiberglass cloth and epoxy (strip-planking), or stitch and glue also using fiberglass cloth with epoxy.
I wouldn't count on it to hold seasonal movement of heavy planks.

I think for that plank I like Scott S's idea or cutting out the check and then joining and butterfly. The wood is gorgeous-No detraction needed.

[Brady Watson]

Surfboard epoxy resin with UV protection built in....This is really good stuff: Resin Research (http://www.resinresearch.net/)

-B

[scottp55]

Just thought I'd toss these Nakashima images in so you might see the various examples in reality.
I know most have already seen them, but it's always nice to see one of the Masters:)
https://www.google.com/search?q=nakashima+butterflies&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=6kL4VIP8JIj_yQSF3IHgCQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=664
Makes me want to go through my cut offs and Play:)
scott

[steve_g]

Scott… Thanks for the Nakashima link! I’ve seen many of them before but it was nice to review them all again!
Right now I’m on hold as a potential customer is looking at forum and my suggestions. I’m actually glad someone else may have to make the decision as I had about three favorite ones!
SG

[scottp55]

Always nice to have an actual picture of some options, especially as with a CNC it's relatively easy to do:)
My brass Jig was never exactly the right size for Anything for hand routing:( And my hand cuts always never as tight as I wanted.
I need to play with these more!!
First time I Ever wished for more split slabs:)
Options, options, ...Options!!! Horrible...Ain't it? :)
scott

[Brian Harnett]

Heres a few ways I have dealt with cracks, you asked about coloring bondo I have done it many times I use concrete pigment powder for black it works great.

The top on the bottom had a few large voids that were filled with west system 24 hour epoxy it has thinner viscosity than 2 part so the bubbles set out, another trick for bubbles is to use a hair dryer on the epoxy the bubbles will rise out.

I do dry all my wood to 8 percent moisture content before using wood patches or epoxy.
http://i.imgur.com/BlAjRNU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/51My45W.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/83XV1nv.jpg

[scottp55]

LIKE the top one Brian:)
Nice piece of crotch (BE Quiet Jack! :)
Kinda "Surfboardy" for twins:)
New leg design? (Jack!!:)
Always liked that bottom table.
Like the "Keys on Steroids" too.
I give up....Usually like ALL your pieces!!
scott

[genek]

I like filling in with a light contrast then use the dog bones to tie all of it together.

[steve_g]

Here’s how this project ended up…
A customer who has some of my other projects saw this one and wanted it added to her collection, the bowties were done to match another of her acquisitions.
I’m still a bit gimpy after my rotator cuff surgery so my wife had to lift and mount the parts to the router table for me.
SG

[scottp55]

From a Real "Gimp" to to a temporary/honorary "gimp" :)
Well Done!!!
Hope the heck you sign/brand your pieces, so someone a 100 yrs from now can collect your stuff.
Like the "Live" stuff obviously, but really like how even with large uniform butterflies evenly spaced and in line, you avoided the knots!
It works!
Get better soon OR have your wife sign the pieces too :)
Good Job Steve!
scott

[dmidkiff]

Turned out great. I like the live edge too. Get better.

[mtylerfl]

Great, Steve! I love the natural look combined with the neat bowties joining the split. Very chic!

[bbrozo]

I'm with Gary. I do this all the time myself. When you rejoin the 2 halves, if you do it right, it will look like there was never a split in the first place and will only lose a little bit in board width.

Bill

[mtylerfl]

I sure do like the split left there. Gives the piece a lot of great character.

[scottp55]

I too prefer the slab left whole, if only so it's obvious how big the tree was, and to preserve some of the best features in the grain and VERY in keeping with the "Feel" of the piece..
Steve,
I forgot to ask if those are all the way through, or if not, how thick are the butterflies?
Also wondering if you left the wood at rest, or had a mild clamping pressure on it throughout?
Regular inlay feature? and if so what did you use for tolerance? They look TIGHT:)
LIKE the sanding of the split you did that I can see(must have been your wife:) .
Close up pic please? :)

[steve_g]

It was a relief to me when my customer wanted the bench and knew how she wanted to deal with the split! I personally kept vacillating on how I thought it would look best, friends and family were divided evenly over the whole spectrum of possibilities! In the end, the decision was based on the look of a previous piece the customer has…
Scott… Good questions, some I was going to ask here how others normally deal with.
The slab is 1.5” thick, I made the bowties 1.25” thick thinking that some glue on the bottom of the inserts would be good. I was surprised at how many people who looked at the final project actually got on their hands and knees to look underneath the top. Many indicated they expected the bowties to go all the way through… How do others deal with this?
I cleaned up the crack with a Dremel tool, I’m glad I made it very smooth because I took the project, along with several others, to “Career Day” at my wife’s school (I talked about woodworking as a business and as a hobby). Little fingers explored every inch of the split! Sorry Scott, no close up photos and the bench has been delivered.
I left the split at rest, my thinking was that since this “flaw” is now a “feature”, to leave it open. Had this been a repair of a top that was originally closed, I’d have tried to close the gap.
I cut the male and female parts using VCP inlay toolpaths. I first cut the male bowties out of 2” thick Mesquite, but only cutting 1.5” deep. I separated them from the stock with the bandsaw after the perimeter was cut. This method sure simplifies hold down of small parts! After I had all the bowties, and several spares cut, I mounted the top to the spoilboard. The female toolpath had its 0,0 datum point in the center of the pocket, this allowed me to visually locate the center of a bowtie, zero X & Y cut, move, re-zero, cut repeat 5 times. Five pockets but a toolpath for only one.
The bowties were cut without allowance, and the first pocket was progressively recut with more allowance until I got the fit I wanted. It’s a “dance” between too loose and too tight. Too loose looks bad but too tight may split the wood itself! A glue lubed bowtie tapped in smoothly with an 8oz. hammer.
Did I get all the questions?
SG

[scottp55]

Yep...Except for the question I forgot to ask:)
What finish?

[steve_g]

My customer wanted it as light as possible… I’ve found this water based urethane to be tough as nails, non-yellowing and slightly flexible if the piece moves bit.
SG

[scottp55]

Thanks Steve-pic saved.
Oh,
Have you managed to download VCP8.016 yet?
2 fatal crashes linear arraying 3D's this morning, so thought I'd update online and NO-GO even running as administrator.
Writing Vectric support now(IF I can find the data dumps:(
Wondering if it was just me?
Getting this.
scott

[steve_g]

I forgot to mention, I buy the water base urethane at HD.
I didn’t know that another patch was available… I had no problem up dating. I’ve had several fatal crashes but hadn’t associated it with particular operations yet. I still can’t get the gadgets to work. I gave up and just use ver. 7 when I need tangents.
SG

[scottp55]

Third time I rebooted, online update for VCP8.016 took, also seemed to cure my "fatal error". :)
Funny, all my gadgets work.
Must have felt redundant that day as all Gadgets are filed under "application data" and then again under user/public documents/vectric, so can't really say which one is correct and NOT going to "Fix" it.

[bleeth]

Third time the charm!!