Equipment/tool recomendations.

[dmidkiff]

My shop is coming together slowly. The cold and rain has stopped construction for over a week. So I've been spending time searching for a good table saw. I've looked at all the major brands that fit my needs. I don't want any thing that is 3 phase, but am looking for 5HP. The one I had was a Delta/Rockwell unknown age. It was a 3HP and I could shove a 2" X 4" through it. I purchased used in 1996 and had new bearings, belt, and arbor installed about 2 years ago. It was great. My thinking is that I will need 5HP just to have as good as I had. Has anyone had any experience with Baileigh machinery? They are in Wisconsin. Made in Taiwan. Wish there was a place close by to see some of these saws before purchase.

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.

[Kyle Stapleton]

Sawstop, safety first.

[ntraub01]

Grizzly tools are great machines. We have both Grizzly and Delta table saws and everyone prefers the Grizzly over the Delta. Just because they are not as expensive as the more prominent brand name machines don't overlook them. They make great machines and we've had zero issues with any of their machines. They also have a HUGE selection of different machines all the way from small contractors saws to huge multi-head, horizontal sliding panel saws.

In addition to good tablesaws we invested in high quality Forrest blades for the machines. Regardless of how much horsepower you have, if you are trying to cut material with a butter knife it is going to be tough and more dangerous. For a while last year we were sending blades to Forrest for sharpening and retipping every month because we were cutting a huge amount of 6/4 oak lumber. Yes, resharpening is more time consuming and you have to have a replacement blade ready to swap but in the long run it was much cheaper than buying "disposable" blades.

Before purchasing our SB, I seriously looked at the Baileigh CNC machine and even went as far as calling them for information etc. etc. I never received a return call and thusly I now have a SB. I was concerned about their customer service seeing that I was reaching out to them for information about a $15k machine and they never returned my call. Could be a fluke but I wasn't going to take the change of making such a huge purchase and not being able to get service or tech support.

Having said all of that, I agree with Kyle, if I could do it all over again I would purchase Sawstop machines. Even IF there is any performance difference from one machine to the next, all of that goes out the window after somebody loses a finger or a hand.

Happy shopping!!

[steve_g]

The older I get, the more sense a SawStop makes… My bifocals don’t always give a good undistorted view of the world, My grip isn’t what it once was and my attention span is …… what was I saying? Besides that, I can fall asleep standing!
SG

[Ajcoholic]

The older I get, the more sense a SawStop makes… My bifocals don’t always give a good undistorted view of the world, My grip isn’t what it once was and my attention span is …… what was I saying? Besides that, I can fall asleep standing!
SG


Putting all politics of the company aside.. I have owned and operated daily ( and that's thousands upon thousands of fbm lumber - just this past week I processed 1400 board feet of lumber on it) a 5 hp saw stop industrial saw for 4 yrs plus now.

It's a great saw. Smooth , stays in adjustment, lots of power to cut even 8/4 hard maple as fast as I can push it through a good ripping blade - and the guard and dust collection is second to NONE.

The safety aspect aside, it's a great saw.

[gene]

Have you looked at places like Redmond tools .look on woodweb and i am sure that there are many used equipment dealers . also look at e bay . you can get good deals there also. i bought a ryobi 10'' new in the box PORTABLE table saw for 99.99 free shipping . There was also a portamatic slide table saw about 1 year old that sold for about 3900.00 . i have a 10 '' Jet table saw and a 10 '' grizzly and the grizzly has more power by far.

[dmidkiff]

Saw Stop was my early choice but was turned off by the price. I will give a second chance and see if I can find a dealer near by. I fear the closest to be in Houston. Will look at Grizzly again too. Thanks for the input. I really respect the opinions of the people of this forum.

[waynelocke]

I have also used a SawStop for 4 or 5 years. It is hands down the best saw I have ever used. The safety is just a plus.

[scottp55]

Old fashioned and poor now, but never regretted buying my 3 hp Unisaw/Unifence with sliding LH miter fence and mobile base in '94. Still passes the nickel test after 18yrs and 20,000+bf of hardwood and a lot of Redwood and Cedar and a few Exotics. Only time she ever bogged was 12/4 (17" wide-HEAVY) Hop Hornbeam slab and that was because it was 10' live edge and the crew got her in a bind. 10/4 Teak no big deal:)
Now a days mainly cross cutting by myself in the chair, but still love it.
NOT a professional environment though except for the first 3 years building the house with a 3 man crew 5 days a week.
Just saying.
Would love to see some of the newer saws though.
Amish carpenter we buy hardwood from has TWO Unisaws of unknown Vintage in his shop being driven by a Diesel outside his shop running a full length shaft under his floor. Belt driven through floor:)
Weird seeing a Unisaw run pretty much silently that his Dad passed down to him 20 years ago, after HE'D been using them for most of his career:)
scott

[mtylerfl]

Yes, the SawStop is a great saw - I love it! I invested in the 1.75 hp cabinet version in Sept. 2012 along with the integrated mobile base.

[rseeley13]

My shop is coming together slowly. The cold and rain has stopped construction for over a week. So I've been spending time searching for a good table saw. I've looked at all the major brands that fit my needs. I don't want any thing that is 3 phase, but am looking for 5HP. The one I had was a Delta/Rockwell unknown age. It was a 3HP and I could shove a 2" X 4" through it. I purchased used in 1996 and had new bearings, belt, and arbor installed about 2 years ago. It was great. My thinking is that I will need 5HP just to have as good as I had. Has anyone had any experience with Baileigh machinery? They are in Wisconsin. Made in Taiwan. Wish there was a place close by to see some of these saws before purchase.

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.

We went over to Baileigh this past fall to look at a plasma cutter we wanted to buy, long story short they showed us a machine that was a rebuilt with full warranty and was in our price range but then they called and said he didn't know the CA office had already sold the machine. (keep in mind he was the sales manager of both branches so not sure how that would happen). We saw their show room and a lot of their machines are built in the same place as Grizzly. We have a lot of Grizzly equipment (and have been very happy with performance) and while we were there we notice that my father's large lathe was the same as ours minus the colors and the guy tried to tell us that it is very different. Same motors and everything just painted in their colors. We were told from Grizzly that as long as their stuff says made in Tawain that it is a good product. They do sell some stuff from China and Grizzly told me directly to stay away from those.

Just my two cents worth...

[donek]

A few years back I performed a hybrid table saw review for Tools of the Trade magazine. I had a similar Delta Unisaw in my shop at the time. The saw that won out was the Grizley primarily because performed as well as the unisaw. My unisaw motor eventually died and we've been using the Grizzley ever since. The cost of replacing the motor on the unisaw was more than the cost of the Grizzley. The review is here:
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/table-saws/hybrid-table-saws.aspx

[Ajcoholic]

Old fashioned and poor now, but never regretted buying my 3 hp Unisaw/Unifence with sliding LH miter fence and mobile base in '94. Still passes the nickel test after 18yrs and 20,000+bf of hardwood and a lot of Redwood and Cedar and a few Exotics. Only time she ever bogged was 12/4 (17" wide-HEAVY) Hop Hornbeam slab and that was because it was 10' live edge and the crew got her in a bind. 10/4 Teak no big deal:)
Now a days mainly cross cutting by myself in the chair, but still love it.
NOT a professional environment though except for the first 3 years building the house with a 3 man crew 5 days a week.
Just saying.
Would love to see some of the newer saws though.
Amish carpenter we buy hardwood from has TWO Unisaws of unknown Vintage in his shop being driven by a Diesel outside his shop running a full length shaft under his floor. Belt driven through floor:)
Weird seeing a Unisaw run pretty much silently that his Dad passed down to him 20 years ago, after HE'D been using them for most of his career:)
scott

Scott,
We ran three Unisaws in my previous shop. all 3 phase, 3 HP. I have to say I wouldnt go back to a 3HP 10" saw after having 5HP on tap... I used to push 8/4 maple, oak ash etc through and had to watch my speed (I have a tendency to go fast when working on a lot of millwork). I used to trip the overload a LOT on the 3HP saws..

With 5HP, it can take anything I throw at it, ie, I can out run the saw so to speak.

No matter what brand of saw, I'd not want less than 5HP and sometimes I wish I went with the 7.5 :) But I do have the Griggio 14" slider with 7.5 HP when I need to rip a lot of material.

[Xray]

You guys with saw stops ever get any false stops ... And what is the procedure to get back and running once it stops ?

[scottp55]

Thanks Andrew, 3Ph was out of the question at the time, and by the time we got to the thick slabs the guys had a good feel for the saw, so never tripped that I saw. After the 3 yrs building this Craftman style house, I regularly saw that 3 man crew whenever they were doing another house that required thicker rips that their contractors 1.5hp on site saw couldn't hack:) Figure it did 6 houses thick stuff and cabinets:)
Yep, not in the same Ballpark as you for Volume.
Just saying if David Loved his old saw, And it did what he wanted, "Don't fix what ain't broke" and I saw a LOT of Uni's on the market at good prices.
Putting a whole shop together at one whack?!! Ouch$$
Good luck David!!!
scott

[dmidkiff]

Thanks all for your help. I have researched online for several days. I have ruled out Baileigh for sure after a phone call and visit to dealer and what rseeley posted. Thanks donek for the link to the review. I read another similar reveiw, also in 2006 that had Grizzly #2 behind Saw Stop. This short post has Saw Stop 5 and Grizzly 4 with delta way behind. I read some faqs about Saw Stop last night and am liking what I see. If someone that has a Saw Stop would kindly post a pic of inside the cabinet so I could see the dust collection, I would appreciate it. Xray somewhere in this link it says that you can override the safety feature if you are cutting wet lumber. http://www.sawstop.com/support/faqs
Maybe someone with a Saw Stop can confirm. Thanks again I have made up my mind.

[barrowj]

Back in 05 I bought a 5hp single phase Grizzly and have never looked back, I would have bought a Saw Stop if the price wasn't so high. I would reconsider now if I had the money but fixing to retire from my real job and will not be doing any major upgrades until I see how it goes. This is what happens when you don't have a Saw Stop, I have been doing woodworking for 46 years and it's only happened twice and this was the 2nd injury in 10 years. Hope the picture doesn't make you sick, my wife ended up taking me to the ER to get it cleaned up.

Joe



http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24292&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24293&stc=1

[dmidkiff]

Scott, It's not that I don't want a Delta. I have looked at them and Jet and Powermatic. I fear they are not made with the same quality as they were when my old was made.
Joe, I'm sure that was painful. Hope it has healed well. You have sealed the deal. And here is a link to the other 2006 review. Have not found one more recent.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/tool-test-10-in-cabinet-saws.aspx

[barrowj]

Thanks, it has healed quite nicely, it is only slightly shorter than my other thumb. My wife says the quick healing and the fact that it is completely covered over and almost the same shape/size as it was before is due to the testosterone treatment I am taking (I am almost 65).

Joe

[mtylerfl]

You guys with saw stops ever get any false stops ... And what is the procedure to get back and running once it stops ?

No, never had a false trigger. I have overridden the safety just once when I was nervous cross cutting a wet 2x4. The brake itself (and the blade) have to be replaced after a stop. If you've seen any of the videos of the stop in action, you'll understand why!

Some time ago, I was cutting some cheap particle board and after making the cut I noticed a speck of something shiny on the waste side. Looking closely, I discovered it was a tiny piece of something metallic embedded in the particle board from the factory. I've always wondered if I hit that if it would have triggered the stop or not.

In any case, you can easily override the safety at any time, if you are cutting something you "think" might trigger the stop.

Here's a photo of the inside of my saw showing the dust collection. Nothing unusual...just a flex pipe going from the blade housing out to the hole in the cabinet for DC connection.

[jerry_stanek]

The company I cut for has two 5hp Saw Stops since just before Thanksgiving and both have had false trigger. They think it was the cheap ply wood that did it. They do use them all the time. Before they got them they had Unis for years and had 2 accidents on them one was just a nicked finger but the other was fingers cut off that is why they went Saw Stop.

[Xray]

Back in 05 I bought a 5hp single phase Grizzly and have never looked back, I would have bought a Saw Stop if the price wasn't so high. I would reconsider now if I had the money but fixing to retire from my real job and will not be doing any major upgrades until I see how it goes. This is what happens when you don't have a Saw Stop, I have been doing woodworking for 46 years and it's only happened twice and this was the 2nd injury in 10 years. Hope the picture doesn't make you sick, my wife ended up taking me to the ER to get it cleaned up.

Joe


When I see something like that I am actually relieved knowing it could have easily been so much worse. I saw [no pun] a guy at work rip his hand between the middle finger and ring finger half way up to his wrist on a 10" table saw, they can mutilate in the blink of an eye. But like most accidents, the vast majority of accidents can be avoided with proper handing and respect. They are essential tools and I do like the concept of saw stop.

Here are a whole litany of table saw accidents

http://tablesawaccidents.com/recently-added-accidents.htm

And also some stats from the same site showing that inside cuts and kickback account for the vast majority of accidents, as most here would have guessed

http://tablesawaccidents.com/p1.htm

Never drew any blood with 1,000's of cuts using dozens of saws, but I sure don't feel bulletproof and I get into a cutting zone every time I operate one. I worry more about kickbacks than anything and numerous times I have stopped using the table saw and went to a chop saw or circular saw when I felt the cut was too risky on a table saw, even though it required extra time and effort to do so.

[shilala]

Sawstop, Forrest II blade.
I've triggered mine twice, both when I wasn't giving things attention. Once with a box jig and a dado blade, the other with an Incra miter that I hadn't tightened and it slid into the blade while I was pushing my piece.
Either time could have been fingers because I wasn't paying complete attention.

The reason I recommend the Forrest blade is because they will take the hit when they get slammed into the safety. A couple teeth get knocked off and it's cheap to have them fixed.
The Freud dado set, at the same kind of money (or a bit more) went right in the garbage. It was destroyed.

It costs about 70 bucks for the regular sawstop cartridge, 80-something for the dado cartridge.
Then the cost of the blade you wreck. If it's a $60 blade, it's going in the trash. If it's a Forrest, it's about $45 to get it fixed, maybe less. Plus if it's time to get it sharpened, you can get that done at the same time, save shipping.
So it's best not to have too many crashes. :)

[scottp55]

David, After seeing how much people Like their Sawstops, I'd probably go that path too If I ever had money and needed to replace mine. :) (hopefully never)

[Ajcoholic]

As far as table saws go - there are a lot of excellent saws both new and old. What works for me, might be over kill for you - or possibly not enough saw too.

I really like my Industrial SS - but if it were inferior in terms of function, I would have gotten something else. Nothing wrong with a finely tuned up Unisaw, General, etc.

Also, it depends upon how you use it. In my shop, the guard and splitter are on the saw 99% of the time, unless I cannot perform a cut with the guard in place, which is rare. Accidents seem to happen a lot when there is nothing guarding the saw and no splitter/riving knife.

I used to do a lot of iffy cuts on my saws in the early years of my career. Now, even with the SS, I am far more likely to do things with more "thought". So far I still have alll my digits with no serious cuts in 20+ yrs full time.

As far as triggering the saw, I did once when I hit the blade with the aluminum cross cut/mitre guage. Once when I was cutting copper clad laminate ( I had the saw bypassed) some metal swarf was stuck in the saw and when I started it up again it triggered.

If you send the cartridge back to SS they will read the computer chip for you and tell you why it tripped.

So far it hasnt damaged my blades and takes literally a few minutes to get back in cutting shape (new cartridge).

My Griggio is a beast of a saw, but it ALWAYS has the over arm guard on it, and the riving knife. 7.5HP kick backs can kill you if you get hit in the abdomen. A few years ago here, a fellow in another shop was seriously hurt when a piece of counter kicked back and hit him in the groin (he was using a similar 10' slider). No riving knife or splitter.

A good guard makes the experience pleasent. But a poorly designed guard is a nusiance and I think that is why so many remove them.

[Ajcoholic]

The company I cut for has two 5hp Saw Stops since just before Thanksgiving and both have had false trigger. They think it was the cheap ply wood that did it. They do use them all the time. Before they got them they had Unis for years and had 2 accidents on them one was just a nicked finger but the other was fingers cut off that is why they went Saw Stop.


My father cut all his fingers off his left hand in 96'. ON one of our 3 HP Unisaws due to a kick back. Unguarded saw. That changed my outlook quite a bit on things. Guard went back on the saw. He was extremely experienced. But when something happens, it is not relevent how many thousand hours work you have...

[bobmoore]

I have seen the saw stop demo at trade shows, but, I have always seen the hot dog going fairly slowly into the bade from the front. Has anyone seen a demo coming to the back of the blade at high speed as in a kickback situation? Bob

[Kyle Stapleton]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=c6z3VMnUCIioyQTonoLgBA&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DcTUOhYcw4ZY&ved=0CB0Q3ywwAA&usg=AFQjCNGal8yGoPp6sUqOynjKcg-VQgpGmg
NOT FAST BUT NOT A HOTDOG

[scottp55]

Thanks Kyle!
Anybody want to buy a Unisaw:)
Thanks Andrew for mentioning your Dad's awful accident...Guards GOING BACK ON!!!
Can't find guards that the carpenters removed:( Anybody know a good aftermarket riving/antikickback that won't break my small bank account, BUT works well enough I won't be tempted to take it back off? Remember working from wheelchair height and almost all work is done with sliding table on left side. RH tilt machine, but virtually never use full sized sheet goods.
Thanks,
scott
Good choice David:) (Jealous now:)

[dmidkiff]

The 5HP Saw Stop is probably over kill for me, but I just don't have the confidence in the smaller motors being able to perform as my old one did. The new technology and materials sometimes does not make it better. The technology in the Saw Stop works because this guy showed us with his finger. That's confidence in your product. I will not be trying this at home!!

[shilala]

I have seen the saw stop demo at trade shows, but, I have always seen the hot dog going fairly slowly into the bade from the front. Has anyone seen a demo coming to the back of the blade at high speed as in a kickback situation? Bob

It doesn't matter what direction you come from or how fast, it reacts way faster. It reacts so fast that it doesn't even know the difference between a bunch of kicked back fingers or a hot dog.
There's a lot of math involved, but you get the gist. It retracts so fast that there's nothing we can throw at it that is fast enough to get us hurt.
It's faster than stupid!!! lol

[Ger21]

Then why do all their example videos show them moving something into a blade slowly, when most real world events would have your hand moving into the blade very quickly? I'd like to see them toss a hot dog into the spinning blade.

[mtylerfl]

Then why do all their example videos show them moving something into a blade slowly, when most real world events would have your hand moving into the blade very quickly? I'd like to see them toss a hot dog into the spinning blade.

If your hand slams quickly enough into the SawStop (or any other) moving blade, you'll likely be taking a trip to the doctor. It's the best (the only) 'automatic' safety system available (besides your own common sense of course), but even it cannot prevent injury in every single circumstance.

[Xray]

Important to remember that sawstop technology may stop gory cuts but kickback is as much a factor as always and probably causes as many injuries as cutting.
Work safe and slow, never be complacent and devote all concentration to the task at hand. Also don't work with dull blades, much more vulnerable to kickbacks than with a sharp blade.

[Ajcoholic]

Important to remember that sawstop technology may stop gory cuts but kickback is as much a factor as always and probably causes as many injuries as cutting.
Work safe and slow, never be complacent and devote all concentration to the task at hand. Also don't work with dull blades, much more vulnerable to kickbacks than with a sharp blade.

Almost, if not all, kick backs can be avoided with the use of a riving knife or splitter - both of which come with the SS (and all new saws sold today in North America).

Older saws are often lacking in this dept. But you can still retro fit a splitter if you are handy, most of the time.

[Xray]

True riving knife greatly reduce potential for kickback, but a workpiece can still get bound up between the blade and fence, when that happens the piece will either be shot back at you or the machine will bog down. Higher the RPMs the higher the possibility it will be shot back.

[dmidkiff]

My old saw came to me used without guard or splitter and I never bothered to purchase them either. I used the saw for 18 years without serious injury. Although I didn't use it daily it was the most used tool in my shop. I won't say that there weren't kick backs and some binding because there were. Nothing serious enough for more than a scrap or splinter. I always stood to the side of the board so if kick back happened my body was not in the way. I also used the 3" rule, where your body parts stay at least 3" away from the blade. Was able to perform 95% + of my cuts use that rule. The scariest kickbacks were from cross cutting plywood. I had the most trouble with kick back when cross cutting plywood. Must be something in my technique.

[jamesburrus]

Saw stop are very nice for safety

[rtfosmoe]

I just heard that Bosch will be coming out with a saw that has the same safety features as a Sawstop this fall.

[jTr]

Bosch differentiates by not using a stop block. Simply drops blade below table and claiming a 60 second cycle time back to operation with no spent blades. Also understand the trigger mech is good for 2-3 cycles before requiring replacement.

Certainly can see some advantages - begs the question:

Is the SS over kill, or is that second phase of operation saving more appendages?

Personally, I'll be going for the SS as I'm in need of the HP the portable Bosch is lacking.

jeff

[waynelocke]

I have been a professional woodworker for almost 40 years. I bought a new Unisaw in 1980 when I opened my shop and replaced it with a 5HP Industrial SawStop about 5 or 6 years ago. Forgetting the safety, the saw is far and away the finest tablesaw I have ever used. I appreciate the engineering and attention to detail every time I turn it on. I have set mine off about 3 times — all my fault. I hit a screw, an aluminum extrusion and forgot to override the safety feature when I tried to cut some aluminum. As for the speed, I pushed a piece of 1/8 aluminum into the blade at the speed I would feed it and you can almost not find where the blade nicked it. It's truly impressive. Also the software is in the cartridges and they are constantly tweaking it to avoid nonskin triggering.

I can't imagine getting another saw. The quality can't be beat and it is essentially a prepaid medical plan. Even a relatively minor tablesaw accident will cost you the difference in price between the medical costs and lost time.

My goal has always been to be buried, burned or thrown out with ten fingers.

[dmidkiff]

The Bosch is only a portable saw. At least that is all I found. I am considering the Bosch 12" sliding miter saw.

[jamesburrus]

The left tilt saw stop is going to be great for your shop

[jamesburrus]

May be I should look in to a saw stop a Little bit more

[jamesburrus]

I have a left tilt powermatic saw I had a right tilt Delta I sold it and got p/m saw