Guilloche Pattern Generator

[Burkhardt]

I stumbled on some pretty pictures of watches and jewelry that had fancy guilloche patterns made with rather complicated machinery (http://i.imgur.com/IVk4Nys.jpg). So I wrote a few lines of code to try it on the CNC. For a first experiment not too bad. I think it could be useful for decorative patterns on door panels or wainscoting (or Scott's buttons). For my experiments I used cheap cedar fence board that does not carve that well so the result is not that clean but good enough to give an idea.

I guess it could be done with regular CAD/CAM software but such dedicated code allows to create a pattern and related toolpaths in a minute without drafting, import to CAM and fluting/carving toolpath specification.

Not sure what to do with that yet but I find it fascinating.

24475244762447724478

[scottp55]

G,
NEAT!
ABSOLUTELY for Buttons!!!! :)
Looked at pics before I read.
Can "Idjits" use it and would you be willing to share?
Love it, and probably faster cutting than the Celtics I'm doing at moment.
I was trying to wrap my head around inlaying it, but as it's not a VCarve, couldn't Vinlay it and angle of the VBit creates the "Width" correct?
VERY interested:)
Doesn't look like there are many Z-Lifts? Makes me want to shrink it down and slap a 30 degree in and some Bloodwood:)
scott

[scottp55]

To late to edit:(
Is there a way to control depth of cut?
Saw you added the Free VCarve file for the Box Clamp and MazeMaker temp page to the TailMaker page:)

[Brady Watson]

In case you didn't know: ShopBot-O-Graph (http://www.shopbottools.com/labfiles/sbograph.htm)

-B

[scottp55]

Thanks a LOT Brady!!:) (and No... I missed that one)
And Thank You Bill!!
Going to have to wait a few days unfortunately:( until I clean up my backlog.
Any links to invent more time to Play Brady? :)
scott

[Brady Watson]

Any links to invent more time to Play Brady? :)

Yes. Stop watching TV.

-B

[scottp55]

Lost TV when they went digital and cable said $1800 to do an "estimate". Said Heck with that!
Ditched Facebook.
Why do you think I post so much? :) :)
Need a "time stretcher", as there's no WAY I'm going to give up reading:)
scott

[mikeacg]

[QUOTE=Burkhardt;178133]I stumbled on some pretty pictures of watches and jewelry that had fancy guilloche patterns made with rather complicated machinery (http://i.imgur.com/IVk4Nys.jpg). /QUOTE]

I had visions of you building a rose turning machine next...

Mike

[scottp55]

24481Funny, Never even heard of a "Rose Engine" before this:)
Guy in Northern Maine was trying to explain the Cams he was making for his today, and he LOST me.
Gert, this was done by Dan who bought TailMaker and FingerMaker and gave you the idea for you "Box Clamp". He said he used a "24 Lobe Cam".
Think I'd like to watch one cut :)
Said he doesn't use it much since he got the CNC.
Interesting!
Hope he doesn't mind me posting pic.
Gert, He ALSO was VERY interested!!!

[jerry_stanek]

What I like is the way the cuts start shallow and gets deeper then shallow again

[Burkhardt]

In case you didn't know: ShopBot-O-Graph (http://www.shopbottools.com/labfiles/sbograph.htm)

-B

Yes, have not seen that. It would do similar things. Unfortunately my machine controller does not understand .sbp

One advantage of the version that I wrote yesterday is that it can modulate the carving depth n-times per revolution of the "small wheel" and it can generate oval, circular, square or rectangular perimeter.
I guess I will keep playing with that for a while and make it user friendly if it makes sense.

But if somebody knows of similar software that is already out there please let me know. No point reinventing the wheel.

[Brady Watson]

Funny, Never even heard of a "Rose Engine" before this...

This (http://www.whidbeyworks.com/root/MDF_Rose_Engine.html) has been around for about 10 years now. I think I have a spindle and bearings around for it somewhere. Rose engines and Ornamental Lathes have been around for hundreds of years. This is a whole branch unto itself & there is some tie-in to 'guilloche', engine turning and similar disciplines dealing with decorative craft work and embelishment.

Gert - I don't know of a spirograph type program that alters the Z. Not sure how predicable or controllable that would be though.

-B

[scottp55]

Gert and Brady,
You guys got me thinking what might be done with ovals/changing rotation points/editing start points/and circular array using a fluting toolpath and a pointed roundover.
Nothing JUMPS at me, but only spent 20 minutes on it. I can see possibilities:)
Definitely going to play with it some more:)
Pretty hit or miss at the moment.
All using same exact oval, except for one on right(deleted a side node).
Thanks for stimulating the gray matter!
scott

[Burkhardt]

Doing a bit more research, I found one can buy a brand new Rose Engine lathe (http://roseengine1.com/products/rose-engine.php) for only $4350. No software required :)
But I guess I will rather spend a few more computer hours on my new fad.

[feinddj]

If you really want to head down the rabbit hole, try this http://ornamentalturning.net/print/collectors_books.html. warning, your brain might explode

[scottp55]

"code allows to create a pattern and related toolpaths in a minute without drafting, import to CAM and fluting/carving toolpath specification."

G,
Can you please keep in mind people like me that do multiples on a fixed size sheet and need to tweak nesting/linear arrays to fit various cutout bits?
Will it generate a .tap code, or a shape(.eps?) that can be further manipulated and then vary Fluting for different permutations?
Forwarded to 10 people, and the non-CNC'ers all liked first and last pic:)
Also snuck this thread link into Vectric forum when a Lady from Oz accused me of having to much Fun:)
She said having to much FUN was bad for your health!
Think you might have to post a health warning on this program:)
Going to have a contest again?
My ball end plunge bit showed up the same day your last MazeMaker license got given away:(
Love to see the stuff you come up with!!
scott

[Burkhardt]

..........Going to have a contest again?......
Oh my...don't get too excited. So far this was an evenings' worth of coding and is very crude. To get to the point of making it generally available would take a lot of real work.

If I did that it would probably look similar to the other things I did. Generate g-code directly and maybe dxf (the latter without depth information). Had not thought of multiples/cloning because my machine controller can do that already but would be easy to implement.

Let me dig in my drawer, there may be still a Mazemaker license left over ;) (email sent). Keep in mind this is still Beta.

[scottp55]

NOPE GERT-----YESTERDAY!!!! :)
THAT was a VERY pleasant surprise to see that E-Mail:)
You shouldn't have!
NOW I'll have to open the bit box/measure it/install it in database/throw the packing away/ AND READ THE DIRECTIONS AGAIN !!! :eek:
Sounds a lot like WORK!
Found out I've become Sensitized to the stuff and I break out in a rash:D
Oh well.
Thank You Gert!!!
scott

[Mayo]

Here's a very cool program that's a macro for CorelDraw
http://dev.oberonplace.com/products/securidesign/index.htm

I don't believe it has any function to control depth since it was primarily designed for printing.
You may be able to assign depth by colors or layers once exported to the CAM program?

[Burkhardt]

If you really want to head down the rabbit hole, try this http://ornamentalturning.net/print/collectors_books.html. warning, your brain might explode

No, not going down that rabbit hole....but found this page with 3 very impressive videos (http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2012/12/06/rose-engines-the-preferred-machine-for-guilloche/) about Rose Engine machines. Just fascinating, recommended to watch.

In the meantime I got a little more work done on my vitual Rose Engine. It could never replicate the hand crafted designs of these masters but I think I can make this a useful program in the CNC world at some point. For that matter it could do some things that are impossible with a mechanical engraving machine as well. This could be used for ornamental designs, inlays or texture patterns and combined with text or other vectors e.g. in Vcarve. Some screen pictures for now but I will start cutting some wood or brass next week.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4CSDRR39R_0/VRjUWqIVPDI/AAAAAAAAFos/fbAZ3z-I1LE/w999-h853-no/ScreenHunter_02%2BMar.%2B29%2B21.29.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-I5jQT3Fd1DM/VRjUU29vGZI/AAAAAAAAFok/fnZXrxGUB60/w1002-h853-no/ScreenHunter_01%2BMar.%2B29%2B21.26.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ly-D3nybsvg/VRjUbgAq3CI/AAAAAAAAFo0/IJW3jBuWzTI/w1001-h853-no/ScreenHunter_03%2BMar.%2B29%2B21.36.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-z6MZqRS24_c/VRjUc3RF35I/AAAAAAAAFo8/XrBowUxLz6Y/w1015-h853-no/ScreenHunter_04%2BMar.%2B29%2B21.40.jpg

[scottp55]

Looking Good G. !! :)
Little concerned with my small stuff that sanding even slightly with 320G afterwards, OR using a coarse/open grain wood, that the tiny lines will disappear?
Is the width of the tiny/thin line controlled by the "Color/Width" "Min. Width" Variable box? Guess you could N(udge) or trick out your Z, but hoping that variable is in there?
VERY INTERESTING!!
Of course I Don't understand it:)
Probably create something that resembles some of my "Open Vectors" disasters when I very first started designing:)
Brass? Many,Many Multiple passes with VBit?
Like it:)
scott

[Burkhardt]

Looking Good G. !! :)
.......Is the width of the tiny/thin line controlled by the "Color/Width" "Min. Width" Variable box? Guess you could N(udge) or trick out your Z, but hoping that variable is in there?...........
.........Brass? Many,Many Multiple passes with VBit?...........

Yes, the "Min. width" controls that. For the pictures it is zero and the bit will just touch the surface. But it can be set to any reasonable width. If it is equal to "Max. width", the groove width is constant. If the "Min width" is negative, there will be an interrupted groove path which also makes for a nice pattern. I am making some good progress with that and have a week off. :) I hope to have something to play with in a week or so. Also working on a high resolution colored bitmap export that can be vectorized in Vcarve and combined with other toolpaths.

I will try the brass with a 90-degree spade type engraving bit with 0.01" tip radius. Regular V-bits for routers are not that great and the tip break easily. But I tried that only once and am not sure about feed, speed and depth. Probably going to start with 18krpm, 0.5ips and 0.01 depth.

If somebody has a better idea how to engrave 360 alloy brass, please let me know.

[Burkhardt]

O.K., just had to try a real one.... This is a more classic guilloche, 2" diameter in brass, total machine time 15 minutes. The speed and feed worked but the bit was somewhat dull, I need a new one.
Not bad for a first try on a wood router IMO. I am amazed how much more detail the brass can hold vs. hardwood. This engraving is only 0.01" deep

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-dA_D4ctRUkU/VRoUI6DMQqI/AAAAAAAAFpM/aCT90hVRUtE/w1094-h853-no/DSC03026.JPG

[scottp55]

:)
Almost a Moire effect :)
NOT going to show it to Dad!!! Brass Buttons:(

[Burkhardt]

Brass buttons take just too long to cut with small bits. Not a good business idea.

But if you want to diversify from buttons, why not making wood jewelry. Here is a set of earrings I made with toolpaths from the guilloche gizmo for my wife who is doing beading and handmade jewelry.
In that case I used the pattern bitmap to import into VcarvePro. Nice thing it uses very little expensive lumber and cuts in only a few minutes. This is 1/8" cocobolo, 2.5"tall and 1.5" wide. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29562014/Earring3.crv)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-i_s2u0ADQUg/VSHOdsyQ2fI/AAAAAAAAFsE/LRoTGn63IP0/w1120-h853-no/DSC03054.JPG

[scottp55]

Thanks G. :)
I was just joking. So far behind now it's NOT a joke:)
Nope Dad is fully into "Button Mode" to get the Northern start-up in the black.
May make a few of these for the "Odds and Ends" page our photographer made for Kirk's website to check interest level.
Probably Bloodwood as Dad dropped it from the basic Fluted designs in favor of Padauk.
Need to add a dozen Celtics and a dozen VCarved, and try a few 3D's to add to the one's Kirk made in pic.
Photographer cum web person Kelly, is really pumped since I had her run a batch last Tuesday and she saw the Desktop cutting at HER button pushing!
She Just sent a new pic today! Beginning to resemble a product line.
Just had an idea for Exotic wood ski jacket zipper pulls last week, but no protos yet.
Sorry for the shameless plug:(
Keep working on Guilloche please? We'll plug you in return:)
Thanks for thinking of us Gert!!
scott
Oh, What's wood under Cocobolo? Pretty Burl pattern!!!

[Burkhardt]

....Oh, What's wood under Cocobolo? Pretty Burl pattern!!!

Unfortunately no idea. Might even be maple. At some point I bought a cheap veneer variety pack (http://www.ebay.com/itm/121287375416) on ebay with a bunch of wonderful burl patterns. They also make a good photo background for small parts.

[DJMartins]

There is a need for ornamental turning/guilloche CNC software.
Have not yet found a comprehensive piece of software for something that is clearly very well suited to modern cnc machines.
Make it generate G code for use on routers/mills/lathes and make is $50 or less.
A rotary indexer on a shopbot could create pretty much anything an old rose engine or or ornamental lathe could do except for the lack of software to do it with!

I am an engineer but not that much of a software guy so it would be a HUGE project for me and I am waiting.
waiting
still waiting
getting pissy but still waiting....

c'mon!

[scottp55]

Douglas,
Sincerely hoping that was said "tongue in cheek" and simply expressing your interest in a project that has grabbed G's interest!
It is a HUGE project for anybody and G. isn't a software engineer either!!
He does this for his own enjoyment AFTER his day job And in between his other projects.
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?20990-Watch-Display-Box
IF you go to his TailMaker site you'll see his prices are Extremely reasonable!
This started in the same spirit as his other software ideas;

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?18547-It-Is-All-Your-Fault!-Hooked-on-Mazes

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?19524-Finger-Box-Joint-Software

And will take Many iterations, suggestions from Forum, Beta testing, AND he always tries to make it compatible for SB3 when he doesn't even have a Shopbot and had to Learn the language just so Lazy Idiots like ME could use it!!!:)

He's certainly Not going to get rich from it(check his Box and Dovetail Software link IF you haven't), And I'm quite positive that Glitches and making it simple enough for non-engineers to use, will start driving him up the wall about 3/4's of the the way through:)

Patience.
With G., It's usually well worth it!!!
scott

Sorry G., Know you don't need defending, but read in the wee hours and got slightly miffed.

[Burkhardt]

........Sorry G., Know you don't need defending, but read in the wee hours and got slightly miffed.....
Scott, I appreciate your enthusiasm but I suspect you read criticism into Douglas post where I see rather a nudge to get me motivated :)

Actually, the Guilloche software is a MUCH smaller project than the box joints dovetails or the yet unfinished maze software. I think I can knock out something in a week or two.
That would be for direct g-code output as well as a high-res bitmap export for v-carving.
Not sure about the indexer yet. So fat it is for flat surfaces but maybe I pick up that idea later for rotary machining. What would you do with that on an indexer? Decorative patterns on columns or pens?

[bleeth]

Well, a high res bitmap could be translated and wrapped for an indexer in Aspire or Artcam.
Better than bitmap though would be a true vector output in dxf or ai as so often even high res bitmaps need a lot of cleanup after the bitmap to vector convertor in a cad/cam program does their thing.
Also means that all those who don't work in g-code (or whose version of g-code is different) can use it.

[JimmyD]

G.

To help with your motivation...............I will beta test it, help with it, purchase it. Working with the indexer would be a HUGE plus for me. I already have your other software and I applaud your creativeness and look forward to this also.

Jim

[DJMartins]

Scott, I appreciate your enthusiasm but I suspect you read criticism into Douglas post where I see rather a nudge to get me motivated :)

Please, my comments are far from criticism!
Ornamental turning/guilloche has been an interest of mine for a long time and I am offering encouragement!
Look at the listed webpage, ornamentalturning.net and the other one posted, wizardryinwood.com, for examples
of objects created on such lathes.
I feel there is a small need for such software because there is not a lot of people who even know about ornamental turning...
Some people have made and designed computer controlled ornamental lathe
type projects but it has been a while since I've seen one.
I don't see why a regular cnc router indexer couldn't do a lot of the work desired.
Also look at the stuff created with geometric chucks, used in the past to create papers that are difficult to counterfeit.
It is really spirograph type stuff.
All of it seems to be much easier done in the modern computer age as it is very mathematical, yet cumbersome to create
using standard CAD software.
I have over two decades of experience with Pro/Engineer and could do some it if using that software, but it would suck.
Cumbersome.
Starting with guilloche work is a great start, I'd love some software I could use to make clock faces/dash gauges/medallions with
my Taig cnc mill in brass, silver, or even aluminum.
How can you not look at some of the amazing and very old objects produced by ornamental turners and not think
that it could be done much easier by CNC machinery?
In the old days the turners would put hours and hours of tedious work into objects that could be ruined by one miscount
or indexing error!
Intense stuff.

[Burkhardt]

Cool! Looks like there might be some interest. Couple of statements/questions for feedback:
- Unlike a Rose Engine lathe that is using a hand guided chisel to define cutting depth, the CNC version would use a spindle and a carbide engraving bit. But I guess it would also work with a diamond drag bit, e.g. for lighted plexi designs or glass engraving.
- Flat circular patterns like dials or clock faces or box ornaments would be cut in 3-axis mode, no indexer needed
- For indexer machines, the traces could be rotated around the A axis instead of the center point for flat patterns. That way one could engrave a cylinder of a given diameter or a conical part. It might be necessary to include a surfacing toolpath to guarantee the proper cutting depth. My machine controller has a rotary roughing function but I am not sure if that is commonplace.
- functions the CNC can do easily (maybe impossible for a mechanical machine) are calculated depth/width fluctuations, pattern distortion to oval or rectangular, positive/negative vcarves or inlays.
- dxf output would be possible, but lose all the line depth/width information, not to mention potential rotary axis. Actually the bitmap output is pretty clean without random pixels since it follows a mathematical formula. After import into Vcarve, vectorisation with 5-pixel noise filter, curve smoothing to 0.004" and squishing to desired dimensions there was no manual correction necessary for the 2 or 3 designs that I tried so far. If somebody wants to experiment I have the earring bitmap attached with only 900x900 pixels.

24720

I would appreciate any and all suggestions. Right now I do not have a clear requirements list for this software and I am just playing with the possibilities.

[steve_g]

Gert…
The bitmap output works fine for me… Your suggested settings result in very smooth vectors, especially if you reduce them to earing size!
SG

[DJMartins]

Cool! Looks like there might be some interest. Couple of statements/questions for feedback:
- Unlike a Rose Engine lathe that is using a hand guided chisel to define cutting depth, the CNC version would use a spindle and a carbide engraving bit. But I guess it would also work with a diamond drag bit, e.g. for lighted plexi designs or glass engraving.

Most of the rose engine work was done by a cutting frame, of which there are various types.
Here's one to give you an idea of the sort of cutters they used:
http://www.billooms.com/Resources/OTCutting/UCF.jpg

Single point cutting bits could be various shapes for different types of patterns.

Here is a pic of a modern drilling frame:
http://www.mandalaroseworks.com/images/drillingframe.jpg

Here is an image of a lathe cutting a pattern:

http://www.valley-metal.org/2006%20Meetings/Rose%20Engine%20Turning/index_files/image016.jpg

Some could be replaced by modern milling cutters.
One of the problems in the old days was sharpening the cutter and then getting it back in the exact same place so the
cut pattern wasn't messed up...

Pen barrel being turned on a Holtzapffel lathe:
http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/MMI1DF-mXJw/mqdefault.jpg

[DJMartins]

Here's a pic of a single point tool cutting wood, but it is of the type often used for guilloche work:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/rivett608/DSCN7100.jpg

[tri4sale]

Cool! Looks like there might be some interest.

I'll add my vote of having interest in this. I can see it used to make some nice patterns for box lids and jewelry patterns, and even wall art.

[DJMartins]

I'll add my vote of having interest in this. I can see it used to make some nice patterns for box lids and jewelry patterns, and even wall art.

There is a huge amount of different sorts of things made with a large number of techniques.
Immense field.
I think if you kept up with what you are doing and got it to the point where one could easily machine intricate patterns such as
spirograph stuff and the sorts of patterns already shown there's be lots of applications for it!
I know my wife would love jewelry boxes and wall art of the sort.

[Burkhardt]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

This ornamental turning business is really much more than I thought it to be. Great information.
I am beginning to feel guilty that I am trying to emulate the artistry and craftsmanship of such highly skilled specialists in software. But then, that is how things are going with CNC.

So far I have circular/orbital repeating patterns like a spirograph would do. I think my next step is adding the rotary axis feature as well as linear/parallel and linear/radial repeating patterns. Nice thing about this project is you can see results already on the screen and don't have to machine parts to see if they fit together.

[Burkhardt]

Some more progress...I will probably change back to wood for further experiments. The engraving bit does not last very long in that brass alloy, in spite of very conservative feed and depth of cut.
The text has nothing to do with the guilloche and is more a test of how much detail I can do with my machine. It is only 0.04" tall and barely readable. At that size it would need a clearer font and probably should better be engraved at constant depth instead of Vcarved.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0uyMPsgl6PM/VSk_agQAfsI/AAAAAAAAFs0/s3MQCVJ8r8Y/w952-h853-no/DSC03070.JPG

[scottp55]

Playing again Gert? :)
What brass? 360?
Smallest font legible here was .08" with a 30 degree in Franklin Demi, but that was Maple.
Didn't help that you stuck it on a Archimedes? Spiral!
"The PURSUIT of happiness"!! He never said you're allowed to catch it:)
scott
Looking Real Nice!!!

[Burkhardt]

Playing again Gert? :) Absolutely!
The brass is 260 alloy and not that great for machining but that is what I had.

[scottp55]

Had to look up 260 Brass thinking it may have been a typo.
Yep, Great job with what you had on hand! Good thing it wasn't "Naval" Brass...Seem to remember Brady mentioning it was a No-No?
"In its half-hard condition, 260 Brass has a machinability rating of 30 as compared to 360 brass rated at 100. "
Just adding this for people as ignorant of Brass as me.
http://www.onlinemetals.com/productguides/brassguide.cfm
What angle bit did you use? Engraving? Flat?
Keep playing! :)
scott

[scottp55]

Just getting back into this program G. :)
Not getting Exactly what I want yet, but then only opened the instruction .pdf for the second time this morning.
Almost hit or miss at this stage, and the OPTIONS!
Still too busy for a 1" button border, but just started playing with using only portions.
Early days.
Thanks again.
scott

[Burkhardt]

Wow. 3 years ago since I last worked on the Guilloche project. But I picked it up again (retired now, yay...). I think it is promising; I improved dxf vector output capability and added rotary axis support.
Also got a 120 deg. diamond drag bit, made a spring loaded holder with linear ball bearings and tested that on some household items. Not bad for a first attempt and working with that diamond bit is easier than I thought.

Engraving the bottom of a tumbler glass:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wOm5lTHlzV5Z9hIfN1bRJwvvDJCj887c_fyYqCCVKLI3fXcnxv s9JaLKpRtkPDp7583TwIUf82lL_1nt6fSqJxEQJRxcITl4Kdv5 8VsHufTcgiS4-okrnr2I_OGoXLdSpsXd6rjY2s2DC1kRayszC31QAH8tVfact_i lPWC1aSxwIiA80t0NNyQATMXKM9JRq3TVj6TngwoQE-3-_FPfwTSuzF6c0RaQO1H2UdQv75yizLe_XSbEd1IhqMisbaUUsM yRjITgbQXkmjqNNfTK_0MIa1RUEWkj8oS3DsQ8WDW8Z38nf-pEtYv0LaflYIMIybjUlth_Lgu9ARtBQ1cxRLUjnumhDNq7gZkA taT30YishbibS_F2MD0GDAu2i8e_2g2HxA7unu_2yH8e-xo8stYJU8fciAjx7UBCMAotgLcvCdMEzQt7MDWHEHIImmaVGUg 1m-nVtS_5rnMUe0hM0up442CBd47cVuH_En7kqjFgk2XojCGWXfXQ u-A8gKAQwsvJ_xTqigBmkbJr6JP-m2B4FxVgyDMs8eZLPuelh_a_2o5NNstmThtIf7cy-GQSDCde6A6xfOGf6mKY7HIdJGiwPhFEedXx4mVhtgU=w796-h1024-no

Still need to fine tune the pressure, but no serious chips. Took only 3 minutes to engrave:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nJBNEK0YFq0iFgfR0lXrXJ7jjEORcVJWsksq-N7uk3mTCQ4O-3aCbqEp3r4alix3MXARha8nX0GEDVLf045EpOmTnfuXQkzJRpA cvn2m-63QraMHAl4U9C1tGo8MEhmAUZmGssd6q5XZxAcv7KflkzWnhER yrBd38yMQ48YS_QnXDx0WeQJt22WbvGZR5-vgbj9iWqRbUhDUb7MlIuz6Ce_w8bP2Mt-5KC0PJ_DssyOtPfDLM4vuWUOsXxWpvWYeUPGl4XKojIQtiLm_B gZ8HFiML77WnaBVIoy6zN8ANuNW9gYEK4NTqGdzWDgaj0GAmpH 6yBAlBPGPC1i9pL5MliNzsxxTlavVhvJVaf5h_HN8mMfp18oKH kimTsejxMvAe4hAzRlOziNMfOi1njRa8IDjjXCPckk4FBOBRa2 sYOrdbOUo--VRbVuHlGNEv-LTegR6HNOj2aSpnkQaPjUwG9FKmUF9QAfTNc8SizdAYbmelhnI hWosT5iz5YXUt0GKb1M8fIP-qtEDv2x3kGRzPpKAjQ_OHXyeh__5LPqDQUcnqGNOaHHtiAtMFE iISHUL0M3ESnZDf3CLZRRcZNf8ec2CgQTnddRDcTUxuIQ=w888-h1024-no

Inside view:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YJV5dif0Dz1uoDtJ7k-eCDSWBCGCL0FIM1aF1XKkixltMSXTq9XbeBU2qMgsYwMtfV70z gqJw0uPDpGT7VkVUJc8DgEVwwNWynWUAWnJa4-SWYILvk1csPSZKyyInW41wHqONpvfabTvvIhMdHhH0dC0UUj5O v5Lna-b_duWscgeqCygS2UlYdN4cICsjJ6YwpEJkUN1i7iJ9OdHdQRKj JX9xTU8gmc94zBlCsi9FuQEYmyOuFx3JfPAhqrU59Yz7Tu4fn0 Pqcn9u-QELkwUQkhRm6GwgRmr0Wnb6MGy9FygOjMWfFyGrygTwk1eLuXg uMMjSSXq7lrE2cl6FKsrzLmSer49q2mNIKJ-Pg9rtUbaFTwM8E0NVOaJwu7QC1RMMNxmtYjl7QcOV1r6Q0X64r elAWQ3h3CQPWWMNyLCjmJnepPlXlgIuP0K5Kxu1Iz9onIDkVl_ 7dtD9p44ko16GLo44TrlmrMSh0pd0xXBvbuGGl72bQSs3-WzrU8tJju7c3N_csXfVNe-5M5-ffLnb-MViYNIW-RwBXjn7mMu0ikYPdNSEMBYJWeJWUSLOopyKeZZQKts1QdhcLOJ ctAxV8GUIczbHfDkkB4dGk=w1024-h975-no

Engraving hardened steel (Chinese butcher knife/hatchet). The lage pattern is 2" diameter, the small one less than 1/2"
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nw0MdH0PKuRbgehKzwv0xy7701LoH11qhHgbZt1Awkf4XhtdVy 9PJE6ZO1O6a1QPCpAojOGxpS762KSSyXarEwEYNSgzyUOy5nYQ RnfBY6JyRVrjMoycTwfMw-XwhH7F1_ax-6x1ArT47JBywdEXD1mjQHFXNa2nA7-3FLRmARxAj7-yi1bFVAZzRzrRia_kNSCpSrD5HEOxiALARagbGmMZM07VZ5Hu4 dUSyT27lzjrweOyEMcx1IBfZvYCaSPY9BIY_YnRQVyJ-X8x2lsXFz8Q32FDnIdBYGUIl7dUlRqzTjsuuN3KMdihxyWcae4 hBYdb6iVbPmpmGOAr22XZWlDZdlVekZS_IV1XWCg9RoOTO1vA8 pg7-qz4Iwl0PCqSTZTRsFqwDO84cVPcxO8ERlRSNTi2Ug2O4KWPARr wv4-hWDbob6SJ8hno2aezFbhT87YnuxP8mYJMq0Z9a9NgEIb0H6vbD bXIGuUraukbC7TnodyBGRn8Gr_v3Lvl-qWUnOlqj1XHRfZ160Qgpq_z6FzqAyLeEUQcsMIqNvgezCQDzZu Pkw1j-CteitdN4PTUV4WYhoZ0hF2_i5_RTtfkn3TWXGBLF-HBMTV2IOs=w1024-h780-no

[scottp55]

NICE Gert:)

Just downloaded it again, and it was the same as already on my Desktop.
Is Guilloche0_92 the most recent version available?
Need to play with it again...may just add a pattern to one of the Bespoke 33 children's blocks I'm finishing up on now(18 of the 132 cube faces left to go:)
The diamond drag work looks beautiful!
scott

Never did put a button into a production run, as everyone had a different favorite, and we couldn't agree:)
Only a couple got rough protos carved:(

[Burkhardt]

NICE Gert:)

Just downloaded it again, and it was the same as already on my Desktop.........
Scott, I am still working on the new version. That software has so many options it takes a bit of time to test and debug all of that. Please hang in another week or two and I will let you know when available. Eventually I want to be able to use the indexer to engrave or carve a guilloche pattern on items that have variable radius like the outside of a wine glass, a pen or a tapered cue.

[a.werby]

I clicked on the "shopbotograph" link and got warnings from my security software about malicious code on the site. It seems to have been compromised. I wouldn't advise downloading it.

[bleeth]

Norton has been calling SB site dangerous for years-a total error on their part.
Not their only one I have found. Tends to happen more when using Explorer than other Internet software.
Further comments on this subject are welcome on a NEW thread-Leave the rest to Gert's program now-Thanks!

[Burkhardt]

Thanks for the hint...but I don't believe there is something fishy going on. My web site is hosted by godaddy.com

One annoying thing that came up recently is that some browsers like Chrome (and maybe security software?) point out the lack of a security certificate (i.e. a regular http://tailmaker.net versus a secured https://tailmaker.net ).
Conveniently, Godaddy is offering such a certificate for another wad of money but so far I am trying to stay away from that. As long as this forum does not have I don't think I will bother.

Edited to say: Now I noticed this was not about my web site but the Shopbottograph...nevermind and I do not know anything about that.

[scottp55]

No worries on my part G.,Just glad you're doing it and not me:)
Have a tough problem just typing before java, than imagining changing that program for tapered rotary!
Congrats on retiring....GLAD you brain didn't!! :)
scott

Need to read and use the program again, BUT still distinctly remember having Dad and the 3 ladies in the shop for a meeting on new designs. I loaded the program before reading instructions and they were enthralled...BUT the voices over my shoulder kept saying "No No....go back 3 designs!"!!!!
Is there an undo button in the works:)
Glad to see you tinkering with it again....time has flown!
scott

[Burkhardt]

Good progress...the variable diameter on the indexer works and I guess it is quite promising.
As a test I engraved a wine bottle with different patterns. However, the bottle neck taper was probably a little too steep for the blunt 120 diamond drag bit and sometimes it did not dig into the glass.

Measuring the bottle shape at 10 points. Unfortunately I had to empty this bottle before the experiment:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/U6WzrqsBdiNX2LJ0qB_w6BN0M3lusEE7jpA0m0MNkmaZGkTujn XIfYtAWA3PMJYn8lTfC8LN66X95cAoV8cN29ViydyjJHhOJdnY YD9fOejHnDSpumLJQtAKATgEPaEMhI54iV_WeMYYMKGirbIJJH 6eSooBrUf55CobZwi28I4Q5p6jOPORW1qYg_vzjLcXLDkIl_qs L8vUr4ospZgPeCOermVoHUHDc6WlSF4bMQD5QblMY_RtIvevsg CAIfLer5ckKcTYYdyJ-kaiwClfiRa23XkGdvGhYfR3s4GZHy-tCHZoehpsItwCcC66k9OL91hGdgoaQY9TfWpN3H5yL8MZnRb7H gxQ7kljCZjkoGhCuyr-NWmuYBDViFBZByMoW-n-cFzjEZLATXD1lpqWSST7iC2e5xy9X0rIo0yHANVJVl6r0i7Zjc fvKSirY7etSy7dgR0fvbx1GJTaZeB0S5GjRwG2mSq-SNDDMmtsW4A-Ozpm_tN4bOpLoYKrwgeLlnKtTZ6ifngjNaqqlwu3D-IIH9G9dnBOuxbmYnV8uNgs5TAKPohRZb8hvrR7nLrRIAdFMLGM S7gKRWSKGgbKFD2bCrnKLGAQswSHr126j2_SDUVeHHR0-YyzZ4RrFgY=w1024-h683-no

Control plot of the measured shape in the software:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EeEQ9F0MfwXvmXuqK_muN-xZWR1iAVMnx9DlrNEEWktmw5yAt2w0mPv6KV-EPHzVWp7p1uMYsZF5jxhXEBMHjj2kBwhbqUmr2j_clLAJKXqMH Neek5RFZ1cQOKc-eAW3Ko7LtOHiB4dFmYLBLWfg_DwJDNBlwAxrdNGgFBrqdPZFE7 3nKumQJP0Oi58IvY-JlDJg2ZpHo8Hz3gH_PKGvlbcSNGZMJ9FaXA8eKRE-KT0-kGt_N-NugXF03sZdB3u8vmOTtSaWEBgZ_ZQBXWeKkmlDxbqNdVcNuVG3 Spvr3MrWPiWgud-zsDAJDydTm7H37tl6wVmhsGG0mQA-mwgAu_WQz4WuIyGUvxksvfRzg1ndY73HuwreoI-lbjQHHT4nkVVSXAvRXzW2JxUvKSKkty8sipROiLAJnu0JM_G8H _QQzttJbNA9te_TV8n24o0xl-H5MKQrB4pypA6lQI0uaIeSEo5cPQ-Bs1TXePKRXRsBBxTQXrMJRFQiTS_jrtGfB2dg32emRYbjwn7i9 nGK4Z9zC6pu84OIIMQasKUjhO3GUK20pc6r37_D_i9GPhCp55M Tpl3X4WeeE7YQ2cXJ_YyZ2vfbULxw5_55jE9yroZ3pQxNP5xUC ZQonKiofqw=w1024-h565-no

Guilloche pattern tool path warped to conform with the bottle as seen in the machine conrol software:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PpECLrrqItNPXVRbsJsw9FEse9pLSmjTAktWs0B2py7Y4ffyft miD6wdClIkOtKuJZf_GDKDuHZaCNSa27dn1Qrp95wVxVjZtz-OdMNuq9bWR6XJ_Ok4wi4uwFwI2qIXTsj20tp75gnlQ_UQHE4X2 IV3irS6Oe23wTeoM86Cueh-K7OBHfr2e1KYxC4c28ctoS-v6o3tmBZwW9rH8gH1RTz5KSGfUicaOtptSOgSCbOoiTaJfMQmn AJixL50a93kvskljMH71hJmZ4i-arbLXQxzvqATu0TIzNaJTKOSOQdGaK6dYVPEidb2ffISjYMo9k guBf5PvaMxQV2sJTe-5Nm5XVpH-Vtyr6R2h42DnlZ9ZLIAKJ7wNmL4V4Us16kIz2HJhuzauzLdX3P DFuUAqIpDbnbpLtn2RlD-vxLtZH1q7KZPryM4MyeGv4VD2eB2ZDH_wzb3ewALwQJrjqaJuo mLNBJxJblIN_Vp7c3CMUL3cCgD5yNHSWj2_0AvkO_YMbvyteYD UIjcEzguAnk6-u-hxZxj_BphUZYzPHj1mnZvs81jXhnEaXKjCnEQ9veW4ZKebr-gsOMsc9kBngA1jPWYE-wVytxMiJ9wUNbJ2Vnky5pBy8sEx6304pQTtqg=w1024-h683-no

Engraving with the diamond bit. Was just a test but maybe I keep the bottle...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/I8M9-nDGNGIJ0VuDsR7Yc-AgI6AMmmemIPXsAW37NjjQfCHQPxLE8oEwbBYwpH3fCmhKAz5F LZgtk3-R2FsqeHlPorXPZYGojrfsdKw3CFTLtQe9EE-E1TEObcrZWhqCDKmlhqp6v_EB7jydCjwt9i9Au4eMGCYlkxvN9 7EqvrRlYZc32grLXdxmt-ATo8sUDO5ssKsC09WepCE4LXdyMVxdireIm-4to_u2V1aqaCBeMzqunnPS0M9aD9s6mDB3c2lt4RnkYDCaoSIi QxiyrpXOxpqziViHckUxsNqX5j3ONV9IVAvqAdyrsBRnaSm9Ed 6hg1knAFELBK-917JJEXUryCvxGBa8ky685bsQA_s9i7Qitlgog4T9gcRdQ1S3m X1NEOq01IUS7EKlCDJfFoIV5KLkjjkhwI3PGa2LdZ5BsSE2gOd XIlJi_HqO6sW_FrKBcoRSQ3A0LKszuD8_VuZ9k5ghJP_Y79S6S 6o8-ZO_DPwNbiZLw8VeQS83hbpF31KYlPWUAGrLMpx_qhE0oPZKHJM vAiLcEhySaHjWWBLQGUB6iewI9hB9fZs6fUqhdN0d2MaKJcJSs gIyPk82llZvUJ0xpuk7KeUrjyTg0uXHHaaJerNXMTF_9GfhNxM =w1024-h683-no

[scottp55]

Looks like you're getting a handle on it G. :)
Holder for the bottle base looks interesting.
Who's digital indicator is that, and what's the travel?
Need to get an indicator.
scott

[Burkhardt]

Holder for the bottle base looks interesting.
It is the Oneway Talon chuck with large jaws and cushioned with a non-slip foam rubber strip. They are 4-jaw chucks intended for wood lathes but I managed to get it installed on the indexer.


Who's digital indicator is that, and what's the travel?
It is This One (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DC96YK). I have also several mechanical dial indicators that I normally use but once a while this one comes handy because it is much more accurate and can measure millimeter and inches. In this case I used it because it has a tubular stub on top so that I can clamp it with a bushing in a 1/2" spindle collet. The disadvantage compared to the cheap mechanical ones is it has only 1/2" travel (vs. 1") and the 2032 battery lasts maybe 1-2 years.

[scottp55]

Thanks Gert,
You can tell I'm not a rotary person...it looked good for that application:)
Bookmarked the digital, but looking for more out-of-the-box mounting options I think after reading reviews.
OUCH...Starrett totally out of my finance range...shoot!
Thanks again!
scott

[Burkhardt]

Never mind, for most practical purposes the Harborfreight dial indicators are totally adequate and really cheap. They just don't have that top stub but a screw tab in the back instead and you must make up something if you need to mount it in the spindle collet.

[scottp55]

Get back to topic Gert:)
I have an aversion to Harbor Freight from my bicycle shop days...darn benchtop drillpress was eccentric even with a new Jacobs chuck...to bad to use, and not bad enough to throw away:)
Same with some other tools...saved for better tools after that.
I'll find a good quality analog or digital that won't cost $300-600 :)
Thanks for helping G. !
scott

[Burkhardt]

Get back to topic Gert:)....
O.K., back to topic. I did not do so much over the weekend on this project except an experiment engraving stainless sheets. These are gold hued 3.3" dia stainless coasters from IKEA. At $7 for 6 coasters a good experimentation target.
The left is again a diamond drag pattern that took maybe 2 minutes at 6 ips. The right is a real varying depth carve that was done using a 90 degree carbide spade engraver at 0.4 ips, 18krpm and 5/1000" depth of cut. Took some 55 minutes. That stainless steel is really tough and any faster or deeper it will rip the tip off the engraving bit.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BFrjIS85sl4_1LL9znxwXDRvzj9ktBGneGzezGjT7WJ9BFvPYA N51PCHjKauNwrsQHhm619tOWJVg4VCkQ35Kj34hXzpwNuZ3MKX OW59iugLoBOjmelc2wEqqAM6ojGllcjLSMqJtvFjFv0xzzGpGJ-Cd3m2osvtCjvgSsrckmfgdRGb_YOIjc-0KJjQLbvZ6NCre88fs3iTTtqdCrC27gfMTd3T_qZa3nmid1zUu pbq_ZtrTpg6iEoCXVyEkzo_rhZBpwxkjuuQ-C7cXQP2Kqe3seEpQy1OWXIDpMDBsaZDIYPN-vkW3yUM194YAD5vqjPPxcOr0nj1xbopynCXfGUtbIsxrANUKav QYlf-1-vPz9VkGS4BtLJidZQK8KldUoTGPmsJlxdrEuboRbvYA97hoc1D A5-MYzCW7hzWl0gwiESzzk5OLFw5IkyoBoknqMENdysnj2H-CJ44nkDZg9qjTQqcoJggYpvVnGWYn8c-cvNQb6moKnXfj6aVJmAa65lFG35wE0NJYwq43F7zomWfDK0VCg yzLHNS5nX2d2UJk2n1MsUzPXL-sZYhQMURp_ROoYMFlKstn4uG3vJ2qESBe3o_jzza6jNr9PC8ux YBkDwwaSLjX1lxa6vh5F0=w1024-h439-no

Well, back to Harborfreight. I agree they have a lot of **** products but once a while you can get someting decent (maybe not exceptional) at a good price. I would never buy power tools there but e.g. the wrenches and sockets are good.
Actually most of my weekend I spent assembling 3 of their hardwood work benches, upgrading the drawers with quality slides and adding a pencil ditch. I know these are not like the beautiful benches you can buy for $3000+ but I am not that rich.
I guess they will do a reasonable job for me and at $129 each (with coupon) I could not even buy the hardwood lumber to build one.
Similarly the mechanical dial indicators. I have 3 of them from Harborfreight and all work very well. In such cases no reason for me to spend more on a brand name product that is probably made in China just as well.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Urn2yz8jxaWpA06hplbhVZR73b2-cGmUVMiWYm8TQAwtrXrOK6oIGfCvCREHy_pTYHD8AM9yleexAN T-0zZ-zVtx603J0z2oSWgIF9D2NgV3KGeuu1gJsN3Nu7fUAOniihRV--h_R_HxkOBhP3hB-kSRe6bu114vTJMsNNr4z6bDB_yGzFU27jo9d9aAbaWs1JSL34a odlsSMVTfy5C6kqYA5yrvyBsHb-DR36s1xGB9ZvjPD_ojtRmJO4cQk3_XnArzWdcr27RS-mBTDmVNrsZlWJDK7ZJvc5rfuv64xqeNktKJJQAZxZ6zbb1-zK3q785gIWVDv_3byjZ-kB-Yubq1tcue5jDBFfLfReFwfaMrdM7X2O6TGVXyL9JSJAO1HS7Qa 9OXzablru3Q7uwdtgVwuzIfH61Z8yslCxRsAuW5_QmbOg5fKaY VAVQHEWaR04Z3kHAouySOBkWxga0UOb3ivaMgarN6yTgmb6c5V s3jgV9JnMetrtDT6_z9A7RrfAKEyhRrs__5OxKqprl_jtWdgEJ 5zgkQZWi8RbxVIjx_4YodX8HVEUndGkAM74vRG6TQzhOU0rfvq S2Vr66r388VN8KZnB25LGRfwOWOUzNwym7iv2IH3kQfm_1blHk =w647-h1024-no

[scottp55]

Glad you didn't take that wrong G. Whew:)
Darn can't see pics of the work...only the HF benches...Probably a Firefox thing maybe?
Will check with different browser after my shop work.
Will check out HF indicators. Seem to remember my Dad's old head machinist recommending a Japanese brand when we first set up, but Dad never bought:(
Have to pic his brain and see if it's within my budget(got a "Gift" from Dad, but have prioritize and spend wisely).
Looking forward to seeing the pics Gert! :)
scott

[chiloquinruss]

"Unfortunately I had to empty this bottle" I just re-read the original post. You aren't looking for volunteers are you? ;)

Regarding HF tools. I am not nearly as gifted as some of you. So my use of HF tools is determined by that fact. To me the difference between a $50 tool and a $200 tool will make no difference as to the quality of my result. Soooo I would rather have 4 $50 tools to experiment with than 1 $200 tool. If it turns out I can actually use the $50 tool and need better results then I may upgrade and get the $200 tool.

Fortunately for me I have a Bot and in a past life I acquired some computer skills. Also the nice folks at Vectric are still talking to me after the 10,000 or so questions I have asked them over the years. So the higher price of the Bot and Vectric were certainly worth the expense, but I still stand by my selection criteria for my smaller tools. Russ

[Burkhardt]

[I][B]......... You aren't looking for volunteers are you? ;)............

Sure, if you are in the area (Pasadena) come by and say hello. I think I can find a reason to engrave another bottle. Then you can also admire my "shop" which is maybe 5% the size of your woodworking palace :)