Metal workers...

[harryball]

Metal working is something I am aware of... having done very little of it myself (aside from beating something back into shape with a sledge hammer) I'm struggling with where to even begin on a couple of project ideas. I don't even know what to ask really.

Are there any welders and/or sheet metal workers out there?

1) I want to make a bracket to hang our bat houses on a pole. I have a concept already but I don't know how practical it is to manufacture. If it turns out to cost $300 to make it'll be useless art to me. The price point would be about $50 give or take.
Questions on #1)
If I were to show up at your welding shop, would you rather have a drawing with dimensions or a prototype made out of wood?
Is it possible to efficiently weld 1/4" to 3/8" nuts onto steel for set bolts?
Can you weld on nylon lock nuts?


2) I want to make a roof panel with rolled edges (no sharp edges to get cut on) that slides over our plywood roof instead of shingles. There are several metal fabricators in our area but I don't have a clue what I'm really asking for or how practical the idea is for such a small panel. The one I contacted asked me to bring him a metal prototype (not cardboard). But I suspect if I could make a metal prototype... I could make the panels. The panel would be about 20" wide, 4.5" to 6.5 " deep and rolled on 3 sides (front and the two short sides). Ideally not just rolled but shaped to slip over 1/2" plywood.
Questions on #2)
Is there a small metal break and tools that I could purchase along with a roll of flashing and do this myself?
I guess... I can make one up quickly out of cardboard and a razor knife. I basically make a 3 sided box that only has 1/2" high sides, how do I translate that to metal?


Any help is appreciated but of course not required.

Thanks,
/RB

[bob_s]

Robert
In the long distant past I needed some accurate sheet metal parts for photo lights, after several tries I found an HVAC metal fabricator who was able to make them at a good price. I would try that industry for your roof parts. Hvac people don't expect high prices for "duct work parts"
Bob

[John David]

I may be able to help with a prototype. I have been building out of metal and sheet metal for many years and have a good understanding of what could be done. Can you send a rough sketch of what you want?
Im in minnesota but thats really no problem maybe i can get you what you need to get started. There are some limitations to bending sheet metal , (due to the machines i have) but a real sheet metal shop would be able to get what you would need based on a prototype.
It is very easy to weld nuts to steel. The nylon nuts not so much as the nylon tends tomelt away unless you just tack them on.
Send me a email at jd@npcrobotics if your interested and i will see if i can help.

Good luck
Jd

[gundog]

I do a fair amount of metal working I have a shear, brake, large wire feed welder, CNC bed mill, lathe Etc. I belong to several metal working forums. You can get a wealth of information from being on the right forum just like this one. If I can help let me know and try this forum they are very easy on new guys. I belong to some that will not tolerate newbie questions and will refer you to one of the other sites. Try this one http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/forums/3-General They have a welding section also. Here is one on just sheet metal http://www.thesheetmetalshop.com/forum/ there are other forums also so there is a wealth of information out there you can learn a lot from youtube also.

I am not a wood worker but I dable in wood working a bit many of the members here are great wood workers and I love seeing their projects. I make more mechanical type parts with my router and machine parts out of aluminum & plastic.

Mike

[jerry_stanek]

for the roof aluminum might be a better way to go.

[Brian Harnett]

Before designing a pole bracket you may want to look at brackets for metal conduit there is quite a variety of fixtures many are designed for outdoor use.

[harryball]

Thanks for the responses, it's been helpful. It hadn't occurred to me that HVAC guys work metal like that. Sticking with the roof panel first because it seems the most practical right now... See images. This is the roof panel in cardboard. It slips onto the bat house roof and I plan to just use the poly to basically glue it to bat house. It is 19 3/8" wide and this one is 6 1/2" wide. It is covering 15/32 ACX. Ultimately I would like to offer them in painted aluminum and copper.

I found videos on 3 in 1 roll brake shears, they look like they might work but I can't find a video where they are making those kinds of bends exactly.

I'm not sure how to address the corners. On the cardboard I simply cut them based on stuff I've seen. I would want to try to avoid having to cut each one with hand shears. i.e. I'd want to do the least cutting possible then bend them.

Can you guys suggest what the process to make something like this out of metal might be? In an ideal solution I could just make these in shop and stack them off to the side.

John, if you think this is something easy to make let me know. If you can prototype it I can offer to cover your costs.

/RB

[harryball]

Or maybe a box pan brake is what I want. But I don't see any demo's where the full lap over is created with one, only the first bend.

[mark_stief]

Harry Send me a private message with your phone # and I'll call it will be easier to explain over the phone than on here

[harryball]

OK, this seems like the perfect tool for the job
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruSDNgvb7KY

But as I can't find it in the U.S. or a price, I'm looking at this. I found one new for $650 locally so no shipping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GQNu9m21I

Since thinking about doing the roof, I've also designed a predator guard and a bird perch predator guard that could be made with it.

A shear of some kind will be the next challenge, but I figure cutting them with hand shears for a while shouldn't be a huge problem.

Haven't made my purchases yet so if you got thoughts or different ideas chime in. I did find the 48" break at Northern Tool cheaper... but with descriptions like "if you're willing to reweld it, it's great..." uhh... I think I'll pass on it.

/RB

[feinddj]

I work right up the street from a sheet metal worker who makes sinks, oven hoods and just about anything else. There are mitre shears to cut the corners and then the brake will fold the panel in the way you'd like. Just like what we do, its not just about having the right tools to do it. Get a price from the sheet metal guys near you and tell them what you are doing and want. You may be surprised at the price and at the materials that they know about. Pre painted metals, etc.

D

[hh_woodworking]

Well you must have better hands that I do I would not production work at all hand cutting parts. If I couldn't get a metal shear I would use this:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-6-8-amp-18-Gauge-Shear-6852-20/100609514?N=5yc1vZc2a9
this is company that I used for tools and have been happy.
http://metal.baileighindustrial.com/box-brake-bb-2416e

[shoeshine]

definitely want to consider aluminum for exterior use. Talk to an outfit that does replacement windows. They have guys that do sill wraps with aluminium flashing all day long. these should be a breeze.

[jerry_stanek]

With aluminum you could notch it on the bot.

[harryball]

There are several sheet metal shops around here, unfortunately when I tell them I'm looking at 200 to 400 of these a year they are not interested. The only one that would talk to me more than a few minutes wanted a prototype in metal to work from. Well... if I can make the prototype I can make what I need. NONE of them were willing to help me prototype by providing 1 for me to test fit make adjustments and get another etc... All of them were willing to sell me all the coil in whatever color I wanted. There is a thriving metal building and component industry in Jackson which probably accounts for how busy they are and why it's larger players around here. If I walked in and threw down a prototype and said "Copy this, I need 1000 a week..." I'd have no trouble at all getting them made.

I'm looking at painted aluminum coil, it should be very easy to work with and not bad to cut with hand shears short term until I get my prototyping out of the way. Then I can worry about whatever other tool I need.

I did consider with aluminum I could cut the shape I needed on the bot as well. Maybe not fast, but in a few weeks I could probably make a years worth of roof panels at current production.

In addition to the roof, I'm thinking I could make custom predator guards to fit our bat houses. Those would be much simpler in design and make.

I do appreciate the help, it's been great. I feel like I'm narrowing down a strategy at least. I've been looking for used brakes or someone who has one I could go "borrow" for a while but so far all I have is a 10' long siding brake in a barn, no fingers so it can't do pans.

/RB

[gundog]

What you will end up wanting is a stomp shear or pneumatic shear a pan brake and a corner notcher. I bought these all a few years ago from ENCO my brake is a Tennsmith made in the US my corner notcher and pneumatic shear are imports. That brake from Germany is cool but does not bend very thick material but would be great for your application. I have never seen them offered over here and I have watched that video before. Balleigh is another outfit that sells this type stuff it is all import but higher on the quality scale than most imports. I think Grizzly sells some of this stuff too.

I would stay away from the 3in 1 machines they don't really do anything good or repeatable.

This is what I have: I bought these all about 4 years ago when there were tax breaks fr machinery and it was all on sale cheaper than they are right now.
I have this pan brake
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=25222657&PMAKA=328-1965
This shear
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=954142&PMAKA=130-5355
This corner notcher
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=953401&PMAKA=130-5110

(http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=953401&PMAKA=130-5110)

[gene]

If you wanted you could also get roll sheet copper . its easy to work with and would get that patina on it after a while.

[harryball]

This has been most helpful. I'm going to start with a 48" pan brake and an 8" throat-less shear I found locally as they seem to be able to do what I need. I am looking at the notcher which will likely be my next purchase. I'll be sure to post my creations or horrible failures, whichever occurs first.

Looking at my list of ideas... besides being an option on all our bat houses, we are releasing a cold weather bat house with a metal roof only. I have ideas for predator guards, a raptor perch discouraging shield, flashing on the house fixed... hey, wait, how'd that get on the list? That's not even my handwriting. :p

/RB

[Brady Watson]

DiBond + 91 deg bit + SB.

Corners can be sealed and adhered with Sika or other elastomeric adhesive - even riveted or screwed. Set it in a jig, let it cure & Bob's yer uncle.

If you don't want the expense of DiBond, then Alcoa roll stock for flashing/trim + vacuum and down cutting O-flute will allow you to create tabs/flaps, 'drill' 1/8" holes and then pop rivet the whole deal together.

Sorry that pees on the idea of buying new tools...but, it can be done with what you already have at hand.

-B

[harryball]

DiBond + 91 deg bit + SB.
Corners can be sealed and adhered with Sika or other elastomeric adhesive - even riveted or screwed. Set it in a jig, let it cure & Bob's yer uncle.
If you don't want the expense of DiBond, then Alcoa roll stock for flashing/trim + vacuum and down cutting O-flute will allow you to create tabs/flaps, 'drill' 1/8" holes and then pop rivet the whole deal together.
Sorry that pees on the idea of buying new tools...but, it can be done with what you already have at hand.
-B

I'm a big believer in making what you have work, at the same time the right tool for the job has advantages too.

I've tried 19 ways from Sunday to bend the edges clean on my test flashing in a way that was reproducible and professional looking. I've been able to do it several times using methods ranging from over the edge of a bench to a hand built "folder" made from plywood, but none of them are pleasant when it comes to making 30 or 40 of them in a row and none of them give me a nice clean consistent edge every time. I keep getting pucker or it slides and I get a slight angle. My next thought was some kind of vacuum clamp... but I never pursued that as I didn't know what I could use that wouldn't get cut during the process. I figure the pan brake is what I need if I'm serious... and I am.

As for the cutting, you're absolutely right. I could see notched corners for a while to come on the bot itself until production becomes a problem, only then will I look at the notcher again. But, I'm paying $20 for the 8" shear... I suspect that's a deal too good to walk past.

For the corner build up and folded I'd not considered rivets. I have an air rivet gun so that might work out if I find stapling a problem. My current plan is to slide on the roof over the elastomeric stuff then use a 3/8" stable from the underside to secure the back and then the front corner grabbing the overlap. In my tests it made a nice corner and seemed solid enough.

So, that leaves the brake. I couldn't find one quiet as close to free as the shear but it's still a pretty good deal. I should probably be able to resale it for close to what I'm paying if it comes to that.

If anyone is looking, I did come across a 10' siding brake in a barn near Monticello GA. Guy thought it was a finger brake, but it is not so I had no need for it. I also found something represented as a finger brake but no. Guy wanted $500 for it and it was probably worth every penny but I think you could bend 1/2" plate steel on the thing. The counterweight alone looked like it could weigh 300 lbs but once we got the chickens off of it it didn't have fingers.

/RB