Best spindle to buy

[rtmorehead]

After about 10 years of owning a PRT 48x96 I'm ready to upgrade from a PC router to a spindle motor.
I work primarily in hardwoods cutting 3/4 inch and also 3d carving. at 2 inch per second
Recently I got a job cutting 1000 parts in 3d out of a mdf material. My machine will be running 24 hr per day for awhile. Don't want any problems from motor failing so am looking at a spindle.( I've gone threw 4 or 5 PC )
I am looking for recommendations on which spindle to get and size.
Also where is the best place to purchase

[Bob Eustace]

Talk to Frank at Shopbot. You cant go wrong purchasing direct from Shopbot as most here aggree.

[bleeth]

I wouldn't get anything less than 4-5HP for a full size tool used in a production environment.. Both the HSD and the Columbo sold by SB are good tools. I've been running the Columbo for near ten years now with no issues at all. SB started offering HSD more recently as they are priced lower than Columbo, and although a very good tool, not quite as bulletproof. In addition to changing the mounting plate you will need to change your springs in the z as well due to the weight difference.

[cowboy1296]

Let me pick yalls brains. My work is primarily part time and a little more than a hobby. Like RTMorehead i do primarily 3-d. I do change the brushes on my router quite often, but other than that its holding up fine. This carving is nearly 30 inches long. My feed rate on my 1/8 ball nose is 2.6 inch per second, 2.4 on the plunge and a 8 % step over. Now if i went with a spindle what could i expect? Will the quality be better, can i push the bits faster, etc?http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24733&stc=1

[rtmorehead]

Thanks for the great replies. what do you mean by HDS not as "bulletproof"
In the 10 years of using the columbo have you had to replace bearings or anything?

[Ajcoholic]

Thanks for the great replies. what do you mean by HDS not as "bulletproof"
In the 10 years of using the columbo have you had to replace bearings or anything?

Although this is my first CNC router, I have had nothing but very good experience with my 4 HP HSD spindle. It is now on the 2nd month of the 4th year in service (took delivery in Feb 2012).

I know there are tons of HSD spindles in all sorts of woodworking machines, not just CNC. The only "issue" I have read about is that the Columbo is worthwhile in the smaller sizes like what we use, to rebuild if necessary while the HSD is not.

I would certainly not hesitate to purchase the same one I have now. I can hog off some pretty aggressive cuts on hard woods, with a 5/8" spiral end or ball end mill.

[Burkhardt]

....... My feed rate on my 1/8 ball nose is 2.6 inch per second, 2.4 on the plunge and a 8 % step over. Now if i went with a spindle what could i expect? Will the quality be better, can i push the bits faster?...........

At that bit size and feed rate you are probably not using more than 100 or 200 watts to spin the bit. Whether router or spindle won't make much of a difference here, maybe except the spindles have usually better runout. I personally prefer the spindle mainly for noise reasons and speed control. The difference comes mostly when doing high-speed, deep cuts with a bigger bit where you need a few hp of power to shred the wood.

I guess for a professional outfit there is a clear choice of the high end spindles like Columbo. For a hobbyist like myself who runs the machine maybe an hour a day, the low cost Chinese spindles can do a fine job. I have my 2.2kW spindle for 4 years on a Hitachi VFD and no problems. It only bogs down when I do deep surfacing with a 1.5" bit. These spindles are cheaper to replace whole ($200-300) than the bearings. I don't even bother to warm it up. Turn on and start cutting.

[barrowj]

Mr Burkhardt,

Can you be more specific on your spindle (make/model) so I can research, my used machine came with a 3hp Colombo but as a hobbyist also, I would not want to spend the money to replace it if I can buy something similar from china that will work.

Joe

[rtmorehead]

I would certainly not hesitate to purchase the same one I have now. I can hog off some pretty aggressive cuts on hard woods, with a 5/8" spiral end or ball end mill.[/QUOTE]

At what depth per pass and speed ?

[Burkhardt]

....Can you be more specific on your spindle (make/model) so I can research...

You can find on eBay probably half a dozen companies shipping from China, basically selling the same design, e.g. an 80mm diameter cylindrical spindle with Er20 collet and 2.2kW. I never had trouble with it but from other people's postings it can be a hit and miss. The spindles are extremely simple devices and as long as the bearings are assembled and lubed properly they should last a long time.

If you want a local supplier you can buy from UGRA-CNC (http://ugracnc.com/WATER-COOLED-CNC-SPINDLES/View-all-products.html). These are still Chinese spindles but they are tested and you have local support and warranty.

The air-cooled spindles are somewhat more costly than the liquid cooled ones. That said, I have installed my "water-cooled" spindle in the dust extractor air stream without any liquid and that outside high volume air flow provides more than sufficient cooling even on hot days under heavy load.

[Ajcoholic]

You can find on eBay probably half a dozen companies shipping from China, basically selling the same design, e.g. an 80mm diameter cylindrical spindle with Er20 collet and 2.2kW. I never had trouble with it but from other people's postings it can be a hit and miss. The spindles are extremely simple devices and as long as the bearings are assembled and lubed properly they should last a long time.

If you want a local supplier you can buy from UGRA-CNC (http://ugracnc.com/WATER-COOLED-CNC-SPINDLES/View-all-products.html). These are still Chinese spindles but they are tested and you have local support and warranty.

The air-cooled spindles are somewhat more costly than the liquid cooled ones. That said, I have installed my "water-cooled" spindle in the dust extractor air stream without any liquid and that outside high volume air flow provides more than sufficient cooling even on hot days under heavy load.

I saw those on ebay previously. They also have what looks like a copy of the air cooled HSD 4 HP I have..

http://ugracnc.com/CNC-SPINDLES/Milling-Spindle-3-kW-220V.html

If it is a drop in replacement it would be interesting to see how the $875 compares to the Italian >$2500? No feedback unfortunately on the site. Im generally not one to take chances, as a grand is still a grand wasted if it doesnt pan out VS a few more spent on a proven product. But if anyone has any knowledge of these I'd be interested to hear about it just for curiosities sake.

[bleeth]

Thanks for the great replies. what do you mean by HDS not as "bulletproof"
In the 10 years of using the columbo have you had to replace bearings or anything?

The Columbo is a heavier built tool, but that is not saying the HSD is not a good tool. About 5 years ago I started hearing a bit of noise in the fan so bought a replacement. It's still in the box. Bearings are still fine. Some folks have had to replace upper bearings. It can be a DIY. The lowers are usually good for life. I do make sure to always use a warm up and cool down routine.

[rtmorehead]

about the"warm up", I don't keep my shop heated in the winter, use a space heater when working . will starting it up in the cold be a problem ? affect bearing life ect.

On the HSD someone above stated that the HSD was'nt rebuildable . Dose that enclude the bearings not replaceable ?

[Ajcoholic]

about the"warm up", I don't keep my shop heated in the winter, use a space heater when working . will starting it up in the cold be a problem ? affect bearing life ect.

On the HSD someone above stated that the HSD was'nt rebuildable . Dose that enclude the bearings not replaceable ?

I didnt say that is wasnt rebuildable - as it is - but other members here have stated that the cost of rebuilding it is not something you can tackle yourself, and very costly VS the cost of a replacement.

Again, that is information I have read here from other members only. I did speak to a few companies that specialize in replacement bearings and overhauling these things, and they stated they can be rebuilt. However the cost might approach more than 1/2 of a new one.

Again, from info gathered on here, the Columbo spindles are reportedly easier to work on and worthwhile to repair VS replace.

I believe that the warm up is to bring the precision bearings closer to operating temps so the clearances are where they should be. I have no idea what detriment starting off in a very cold shop might be. However, instead of wondering it might be wise to give the respective spindle companies a call or email, and ask them. After all they should know the operating requirements of their product better than anyone else.

[Ger21]

I've had a few 10HP HSD ATC spindles rebuilt with bad bearings, and they were about $2500 each time.

[Burkhardt]

I found an interesting small spindle that I might get for the light work. A DC operated brushless 400 watt spindle up to 12,000 rpm with ER11 collet (http://www.ebay.com/itm/281649986013).
Might be just the ticket for 3d-work, engraving, smaller v-carves and the like.

I measured the power *input* of the VFD for my 2.2kW spindle and it rarely exceeds 200 watts for such work.

[knight_toolworks]

the HSD is more suitable for rilling then the Columbo is.

[bleeth]

I have only owned a 5HP columbo since I bought my SB. I mostly make cabinets. It does a hell of a lot of drilling. As a side job for one of my suppliers I just drilled over 11,000 1/16" holes in veneered 3/4" mdf. 22 1/2 hours doing a two step peck and then a cleanout full depth pass. I have drilled many holes in aluminum projects, acrylic, mdf, plywood, melamine, etc. I'm not saying it's the only way top go. It isn't. But it does work fine. Regardless of what tool you own, you need to learn how to use it to get what you need. Just as you don't fllor your accelerator every time you take off from a red light and wind it to max rpm before shifting thee is no reasonable explanation for pushing any spindle or router to it's max on a regular basis.

[knight_toolworks]

I have only owned a 5HP columbo since I bought my SB. I mostly make cabinets. It does a hell of a lot of drilling. As a side job for one of my suppliers I just drilled over 11,000 1/16" holes in veneered 3/4" mdf. 22 1/2 hours doing a two step peck and then a cleanout full depth pass. I have drilled many holes in aluminum projects, acrylic, mdf, plywood, melamine, etc. I'm not saying it's the only way top go. It isn't. But it does work fine. Regardless of what tool you own, you need to learn how to use it to get what you need. Just as you don't fllor your accelerator every time you take off from a red light and wind it to max rpm before shifting thee is no reasonable explanation for pushing any spindle or router to it's max on a regular basis.
Don't let brady here this. but the club spindle tells you to ramp everything because the bearings are not designed for drilling.

[Brady Watson]

Don't let brady here this. but the club spindle tells you to ramp everything because the bearings are not designed for drilling.

Hey...It's your spindle. Drill rocks with it if you want :rolleyes: I only pass only what PDS Colombo told me when I asked them about drilling with it at a trade show. They are not rated for it...but an aggregate drilling head is.

It all depends on what your needs are. When I bought my 5hp Colombo back in 2001, it was around $4300 or so. The first job I got was cutting a bunch of maple. The job came from another ShopBotter that had a PC router and could not get it to cut well enough without burning or blowing out. That first job paid for the spindle.

After a lot of cutting the spindle started making noise. I heard not so great stories from others who paid to have their spindle factory rebuilt, so I decided to rebuild mine with help from my friend who is a professional motor rebuilder. The top bearing (an ABEC 6205 I believe) was whining and although it didn't affect cutting, it bothered me. So I opted to replace ALL bearings for around $600. I've been using it since and it runs great. In hindsight, I would have just run it until it died because I have another brand new one on the shelf.

Having been a SB on the road tech for 10+ years, I've been to a lot of shops running HSD & Colombo spindles. The Colombos seem to last a lot longer than the HSDs. Probably around 3:1. Yes, they cost more, but if you look at the lower bearing lands and overall quality of the Colombo, you'd see that it's comparing apples to oranges in a number of ways. The Colombo is a 400Hz spindle, (24k RPM) which is really helpful with very small tools and plastics at elevated feed rates. It's just a better spindle & the price reflects this. HSD doesn't rebuild these lower hp spindles - which is why they are considered throw-aways.

Yes, they will all cut wood - regardless of their country of origin. If you are a garage band, then ANY spindle is a step up from a PC router & good. For me, I like super duty. I like stuff built like a diesel tractor - designed to run & run & run with a high service factor. It has been rare that I used the full 5hp...but what few understand is that the big iron CNCs that use 12 or 16hp spindles to do the same work is that, they go for service factor/duty which gives them a long service life. It isn't because they need 16hp to cut plywood. It's because a diesel truck will pull a load with less stress than a 4cyl economy car. Think about duty cycle when selecting a spindle. If you're just cutting low reliefs and clipart, this isn't a big deal. If you want to take on the big jobs, factor it into your decision.

-B

[rtmorehead]

Having been a SB on the road tech for 10+ years, I've been to a lot of shops running HSD & Colombo spindles. The Colombos seem to last a lot longer than the HSDs. Probably around 3:1.


Thanks Brady
Thats The kind of info from experience I was Looking for . It helps me justify spending the extra $800 for the Colombo.Of course Ive spent close to the cost of a spindle on PC routers over the years. And several projects messed up cause the router quit in the middle of the project.
Like you, and being a farmer, I also like things a little over powered. I feel the extra power will make the bits last longer and also I"m looking for improved cuts

[David Iannone]

Brady,
That is a simple way to explain it, thanks. I am about a year away from buying a spindle, but you just sold me on the 5hp Columbo.

got to stiffen my gantry before I try to go Colombo.

thanks,
Dave

[rtmorehead]

[QUOTE=David Iannone;179407]Brady,


got to stiffen my gantry before I try to go Colombo.

In what way dose the gantry need stiffened ? I've got a PRT 96

[Brady Watson]

A PRT will handle any of these spindles fine without modification. The only mod is the spindle adapter plate which is included in the price if you buy the spindle through SB...but this is just to adapt the spindle to the Z axis.

-B

[bleeth]

I seem to remember hearing the z springs for the Columbo are stiffer than the ones used for the router on a PRT also, aren't they Brady?
Stiffening a PRT is a good move in any case. When I upgraded from original control box to 4g type my jog speed went way up but the drive speed cutting wood sheet goods improved much less as the gantry couldn't handle the increased torque from much faster speed without starting to rack and lose steps. If you absolutely know you have your Y gantry good and square welding it, instead of bolts is the quickest way. If you have one of the older frame z cars welding it is good also. When SB introduced the Alpha they soon redesigned the z with an aluminum plate to keep it from racking.

[Brady Watson]

I seem to remember hearing the z springs for the Columbo are stiffer than the ones used for the router on a PRT also, aren't they Brady?

Yes, they are. Depending on the model spindle, the springs are different. IIRC 2 skinny ones for PC routers, one skinny one fat for 2 & 3hp and 2 fat for 4 & 5 hp. If you order the kit from SB, it comes will everything you need, including instructions.

Early on, 5hp Colombos would get the optional 7.2:1 Z motors on Standard tools (before there was an Alpha), instead of 3.6:1, and Alpha tools that had AS911s on XY would get a 10:1 for the Z. When they switched to 7.2:1 for XYZ, this went away.

-B

[jamesburrus]

I guess you have to really do your homework we buying a spindle