HDU Question: Hard Coat & Hardware

[RossMosh]

I have a somewhat unique sign project that is in it's planning stage. A church wants a sign. Fairly standard carved sign between two posts with a couple of hangers. The twist is, they share the church space with another group. As a result, the sign actually needs to be taken down regularly as they aren't allowed to put up a permanent sign. So obviously for weight concerns, HDU jumps to the top of my list. I've never really worked with it except a few trials so I have a few questions. I have searched but as we know, what was standard in 2011-12 may not be the best way of handling things in 2015.

1. What kind of primer/hardcoat is recommended? Obviously weather is not a real concern nor is the elements as the sign really won't be out long periods of time. I'm concerned with the constant handling of the sign. Touching it, banging it, carrying it, ect. Is there a way to increase the protection?

2. I know HDU is tricky with hardware. It's one of the reasons I've chosen not to use it. My question is, how would you recommend hanging it? Below is my initial thought (just a basic drawing) but I honestly don't know how to properly attach the bracket to the HDU. I assume a combination of glue and screws would work

I'm open to thoughts/suggestions. This is not a big budget project. I think 1" 20lb Duna HDU is about all the budget will allow. Going up to 1.5" will just bump the price too much.

25174

[RossMosh]

Well, as an update in order to try to give back to the community. This is what I've figured out and I should be going into production in a few weeks.

20lb 1" Duna HDU. I'm going to use aluminum U channel around the bottom and side edges to protect the sign as much as possible. I'm going to also use either angle or U channel on the actual sign frame so the sign just slides into place. Should work pretty well and put very little stress on the HDU. To give the sign a bit more toughness I'm also going to skim coat it with MH Ready Patch and give it a couple good coats of primer.

My only question left is what kind of paint to use. The gold will be MM Gold Rush. I'd love to stick with Nova Color for the purple but they don't have a purple with good lightfastness and I'm not really interested in mixing a custom color. Paint is my biggest issue because if it goes bad, it's a costly mistake. Should I go with Sherwin Williams Super Paint? What about Pittsburgh Paints? I know PPG owns a lot of different paint companies now so I'm hoping they might have a product I could use?

25646

[bleeth]

Any good exterior 100% Acrylic Latex will work.
A yellow base coat under the gold helps it "pop"

[RossMosh]

Any good exterior 100% Acrylic Latex will work.
A yellow base coat under the gold helps it "pop"

Well, that's what I kept reading. So my first sign ever I go to Sherwin Williams and tell them what I'm doing and what's been suggested. They say "Any of our exterior line will work" basically. I pick their "Resilience" line and it wasn't good. Stuff never wanted to cure, paint mask refused to stick to it, and was impossible to touch up. I thought it was me, but then I read the reviews on their site: http://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/catalog/resilience-exterior-acrylic-latex/

I did plan on doing a base coat of yellow, probably enamel, to get the gold to pop.

[bleeth]

Interesting. I've had a bunch of sign folk that work in HDU all the time tell me they love SWP.
Acrylic does need good dry time and is better in a few thin coats. If too thick there will be binding and drying issues.
If you haven't enquired on the 3-d sign forum you should. More real experts there than here.

[joe]

Ross,

My complements on the design and color combination. What is the size?

I'd suggest considering 1" PVC. it's less expensive and much tougher. Also the surface needs no primers or finishing coats. If you use PPG's DTM gloss it's doubtful it will be effected by UV.

Joe
Normansignco.com

[RossMosh]

Interesting. I've had a bunch of sign folk that work in HDU all the time tell me they love SWP.
Acrylic does need good dry time and is better in a few thin coats. If too thick there will be binding and drying issues.
If you haven't enquired on the 3-d sign forum you should. More real experts there than here.

Well, I just read it again and the Resilience isn't actually 100% acrylic. The A-100 they sell is. As we all know, in the world of latex, they throw additives in to protect the paint. I'd love to find a happy medium where it has a few additives but allows everything to stick and work well. I have a very local SW that isn't helpful. I contacted a branch not far from here that does the whole line of paint and I wasn't really able to get any strong recommendations. They kind of defaulted to Super Paint.


Ross,

My complements on the design and color combination. What is the size?

I'd suggest considering 1" PVC. it's less expensive and much tougher. Also the surface needs no primers or finishing coats. If you use PPG's DTM gloss it's doubtful it will be effected by UV.

Joe
Normansignco.com

Thanks for the compliment Joe. I'd love to use PVC but it won't work for this application. This is a church that rents space from another church. Their agreement is they can't keep a sign up 24/7/365. So they will constantly remove the sign. With the sign coming in around 7x3.5, PVC will just be too heavy. I believe PVC will come in around 70lbs and HDU will weigh about half that. My hope is using 20lb HDU with the aluminum edging will be a nice compromise.

By the way, what MM UV clear do you use? I'm thinking of just getting Nova Color's purple and spraying it with a UV clear. Honestly, I'm not even sure how much I have to worry about the UV protection since it won't see much outdoor time. I may just use Nova Color's clear coat. Have you tried it yet?

[joe]

Ross,

If this sign is 7' in width and only 1" thick it won't last long without some serious braces.

While I like Nova, my choice would be PPG DTM semi-gloss. DTM "Direct To Metal" paints aren't sticky and dry fast. Tougher than normal acrylic paints. The dark colors are full bodied rich hues.

A a dimensional sign this size will retail between $1,850 to $2,350. Reading
between the lines this sounds like one of those typical SBer under priced project.

Joe

[RossMosh]

Ross,

If this sign is 7' in width and only 1" thick it won't last long without some serious braces.

While I like Nova, my choice would be PPG DTM semi-gloss. DTM "Direct To Metal" paints aren't sticky and dry fast. Tougher than normal acrylic paints. The dark colors are full bodied rich hues.

A a dimensional sign this size will retail between $1,850 to $2,350. Reading
between the lines this sounds like one of those typical SBer under priced project.

Joe

It is braced. It has a PVC cross beam running across the bottom and will be held in place with channel along the side and bottom. Basically the sign will slide/drop into a channel and all the weight will be held with the PVC cross beam. The channel along the bottom should keep the HDU from bowing and as long as I give the HDU some room to expand, it should keep it from cracking. The PVC is also there to screw the hangers into.

I'll give PPG a call tomorrow and see where I can get that paint and it's availability. Also as far as pricing, I'm right in that range. I try my best not to work for free. I carefully bid out every job I do. I might be slightly on the low side for my area, but refuse to make $800 signs that cost me $250 in raw materials. Fast way to make just above minimum wage.

[joe]

Ross,

your Sherwin Williams outlet will also have DTM. It's nothing like the usual latex especially on the dark rich colors. Covers like NOVA.

I'm rooting for you but quiet sure your braces will fail. This is a trail I've traveled many times.

Joe

[RossMosh]

I'm honestly open for suggestions. I figured with the cross beam taking the weight and the aluminum brackets along the side and bottom, it should keep it from getting any real warp, especially considering it may only see 20 hours of outdoor time a week.

[RossMosh]

Once again experience wins over guessing. I got the piece of HDU in today to start working on the project over the weekend. It just isn't as rigid as I had hoped. Anything I do to get the HDU to work will end up more expensive and heavier than PVC so I went ahead and ordered a piece of 1" Komacel.

I'm still a little concerned about the weight. PVC will end up at about 60lbs vs 45lbs for the HDU (as I had designed). Obviously 60lbs isn't ridiculously heavy but I may try to re-imagine the brackets so that the sign is easier to put on the frame. With HDU I was afraid to do a cleat setup. With the PVC, since I can screw/glue, I think I'll go with a cleat setup which will be a lot easier than sliding the sign in and may reduce the weight a few pounds.

[RossMosh]

Hopefully I can get a little help.

This sign was 90% done. Go to peel the mask on the small panel and the MM gold peels right up. Oof. Kick in the chest. Realize the yellow paint I picked and the MM doesn't play nicely. Read the directions again and I clearly chose the wrong yellow paint.

So I literally peel up all the gold paint (takes no time at all) on the main panel and the other small, sand the yellow down and prime over it with PPG primer which is designed for going over glossy surfaces. Let it dry. 3 coats of MM waiting 45-60 mins (recommended is 30). Let it dry. Time to think about peeling it up again and I just don't trust the MM not to pull up. Under the taping instructions, it clearly says the paint doesn't really grab right away. By right away, they weren't exactly specific and when I called they said at least 24 hours but wait 3-5 days before shipping. They recommend cutting around taped edges so you don't pull up the MM.

Is my only option to go around with an X-acto and cut the edge of every letter so I don't run into trouble? If so, why would anyone want to use MM on a V-carved sign? I figure between the main panel and smaller panel, it will take me several hours to carefully go around each letter, dingbat, and symbol. I'll chalk it up to my inexperience as people have been using this stuff for years, but I know I'll never buy or use it again on a project like this.

[joe]

Ross,

I visit this forum every once in a while. It's sometimes painful to see troubles like you are having. Perhaps you should give me a call to discuss some of your options. This business of making signs requires lost of experience which isn't appreciated as it should be.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[bleeth]

Regardless of what I have to say I suggest strongly you take Joe up on his offer to help by calling him.

I can tell you that long ago one of the services I offered clients was painting graphics on their walls. These were interior and at the time they were a hot ticket item. All went well until we had to work on a wall that had a yellow base color which, like all the other jobs we did, we applied. In this case though, we had massive problems with the fineline tape pulling the paint. Cutting was the only solution. What a nightmare! It was a big wall and since much of the graphic was curves it was very painstaking. I learned then that the pigment in yellow makes paint act differently than other colors. (Poor bonding and longer cure) A lesson I have never forgotten. I would imagine that there are other options assuming one used the correct paints and allowed sufficient curing time. Cure time is a super important item in sign work. Many people I know double manufacturers recommendations to play it safe.