Outdoor 3D Sign

[mwpfeifer]

Looking for a bit of guidance and/or information from you folks in the sign building business. I agreed to carve a 3D representation of a Golden Retriever for a neighbor that operates a boarding kennel and raises Goldens. I don't do signs or anything for exterior use and my Buddy is more a hobby machine than anything else. Ok, so what I'm needing to know. The carving I made is from a Burr Oak which I think is pretty much native up here in Northern MN. I selected this because the finished color was the closest I could get to that of a Golden plus the grain pattern kind of looked like the way the fur does.I finished it with 4-5 coats of exterior Spar varnish, poly type. I have no idea how this will hold up to the extremes of climate we have so I'm curious as to what material and finish you experts would have used? By the way the oak was 2" thick at the start and the finished figure is about 16" high and 19" wide and I had to glue up 3 chunks with Weldwood III to get started.
Thanks,
Mikehttp://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25306&stc=1

[bleeth]

Your version is really gorgeous, but the spar varnish will likely take annual renewal upkeep and sanding it to prep for added coats is a real pain.
I would have done it in signfoam and painted and glazed it with 100% acrylics. I had to look up "Burr Oak". Not to often someone names a wood I don't know-nice to learn another one.
Since it is a White Oak I expect it's OK in outdoor use, but would research that.

[pappybaynes]

Your version is really gorgeous, but the spar varnish will likely take annual renewal upkeep and sanding it to prep for added coats is a real pain.
I would have done it in signfoam and painted and glazed it with 100% acrylics. I had to look up "Burr Oak". Not to often someone names a wood I don't know-nice to learn another one.
Since it is a White Oak I expect it's OK in outdoor use, but would research that.
I would second the annual renewal of the spar varnish...I use it on my canoe paddles that I made and they require a spruce up...
Dick

[bobmoore]

Sun is the worst enemy of spar varnish. Keep it under a porch roof or put a roof over the area where it is installed and you might get 2 or 3 years before refinishing is needed. Refinish though before there is any sign of deterioration You won't have to strip to bare wood, just scuff an recoat. Bob

[Chuck Keysor]

Michael, that's a very attractive carving. As to the finish, maybe 5 years ago, I read an article in Fine Woodworking magazine about exterior finishes. They did a very extensive/scientific study of all finishing systems and how long they would last under the worst outdoor exposure. The bad news is that as I recall, Spar varnish did very poorly in their testing. More bad news, I don't recall what the best finish was. But hopefully that information can be found on the Internet, or find someone who has a DVD of the complete Fine Woodworking collection. For all the people here who do exterior finishing, this information should be very desirable information! Thanks, Chuck

[scottp55]

Ran across this last month and bookmarked it.http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_9/features/exterior_wood_10576-1.html

[bob_s]

Thanks Scott, that's a great resource.

[mwpfeifer]

Many thanks for the replies folks. I was afraid that Spar probably was not the best choice but have been asked to carve two more of the Goldens so though it would be a good idea to get some expert advice. My artistic talents are not remotely good enough to do this in sign foam and then paint it to look something like the real thing and I would also have to mail order the foam. Many thanks for the link Scott, I agree with Bob it's a great resource and I need to study it carefully. If it were not for the difficulty in obtaining good quality Burr Oak, it has a bad tendency to check while drying, I would just carve up a dozen and try a few different finishes.

[mwpfeifer]

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25335&stc=1My neighbor just finished to sign that my carved Goldens are mounted on and thought there might be interest in the finished product. It is double sided.

[Chuck Keysor]

Concerning exterior grade varnishes, I looked through my notes, and found that the Fine Woodworking review of exterior varnishes was in the May/June 2009 issue.

My notes say that the two best exterior finishes that they found were: Epifane high gloss marine varnish (it requires 7 coats) and Epifane marine varnish (5 coats) on top of three coats of Smith and company penetrating epoxy sealer.

They also found that "moisture combined with freezing/thawing causes more weathering than UV". And ipe and cedar held up the best, then mahogany and white oak were almost as good.

Chuck

[scottp55]

Really came out nice Michael, but like Dave and Dick said..annual upkeep to keep that beautiful Oak from turning black would be my concern:(
Waiting for the sign guys to kick in...aren't there some epoxy finishes out there that might hold up better guys?
Dad grew up on sailboats during the Depression era, and varnish horror stories from Camden,Maine are what I grew up hearing:)
A varnish that lasted TWO YEARS, would probably have caused sermons back then about "Idle hands are the Devil's workshop"!:)
Just a couple more links to confuse you....But there must be something better that varnish to protect that beautiful job?
http://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19654&hilit=exterior+wood+finish#p139151

http://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11222&p=80824&hilit=exterior+wood+finish#p80824

[dmidkiff]

Great job. Finished sign looks great. Best product for outdoor use that I've tried is called PermaCoat. I think I got it from Sculpt Neveuo. It will need annual refreshing but will out perform the spar vanish. I think that Joe Crumley has stated that Sikkens products work very well. I have never tried them.

[mwpfeifer]

Thanks again all for the informative replies. I should have thought about the Sickens type products as there are a number of homes up here in the North woods made from logs or have half log siding as does our home. Keeping these exterior wood surfaces looking good is a never ending project and most folks I have discussed this with have indicated 2-3 years before refinish is about the best one can hope for. I used to get a periodical from West Systems and remember they had done quite a bit of research and experimentation with two part epoxy finishes on various types of boats with some decent success. Think I might dig a little deeper in that area as I have quite a bit of experience working with their products in the past.

[bleeth]

Epoxy is a good base coat but must be covered with a UV inhibitor top coat (Varnish). If maintenance is not kept up on the top coat it will break down.
The three part polys like Awlgrip are great, but poisonous to work with and expensive. I particularly like their Foxfire. It's been discussed previously on this forum.

[Chuck Keysor]

Michael, as noted in my previous post, and corroborating Bleeth's post, "Epifane marine varnish (5 coats) on top of three coats of Smith and Company penetrating epoxy sealer" was rated by Fine Woodworking in 2009 as one of the two best exterior wood finishes they found. This is a two part epoxy, with a top coating of varnish. Chuck

[joe]

Greetings everyone,

Thoughts on topcoats:

Here are a few thoughts about preservative topcoats. There's nothing wrong with weathered wood. As much as I like Mike's carved Retreiver, it's likely to improve with some aged cracks and splits. I like the look of old weathered wood. For the past year I've been using old worn out wood to add some texture and personality to my ranch signs.

Most wood will move, expand and contract with temperatures. Hard coat varnishes, epoxies, and catalyzed poly paints and stains are the first to give up the ghost. What we need are flexible coatings with UV protection. That's the reason Acrylic Latex paints last so well. A few of the Epoxy manufacturers finally caught on and are making their products more flexible. O, by the way, you can add about twenty percent to epoxy to make it more rubber like.

One of the reasons I'm so fond of Sikkens is it comes in lots of shades. You can get it from Dark Walnut to light natural shades. I use these for blending. Seldom does a sign leave my shop without some kind of shading. And sickens works like a dream over latexes and HDU.http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25389&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25390&stc=1

[pappybaynes]

Joe, do you a Sikkens clear coat on your signs? And if so which one?? Thanks
Dick