Considering materials for longevity

[joe]

For me one of the first consideration when designing a new project is the emotional effect. Dimensional signs command more attention than flat signs or at least they have the potential. Another consideration is longevity. Some materials naturally do better outside than others. But all exterior signage needs extra attention no matter what substrate is used.

With dimensional work there are lots of extra requirements. Firs off is the substrate closely followed by the consideration of adhesive. The latter often determines life expectancy. Paints and installation should not be overlooked. Although I seldom become involved with putting a sign up I do have lots of instructions, for the installers, about the process.

Below are a couple of material substitutes and material failures.

[Alex Naumenko]

First three pictures look like hail damage not material failure.

[joe]

Alex,

That's correct. When fabricating custom signs like these one should consider the environmental effects. For example: The background is redwood that has been sandblasted. It's still there and could easily be restored. Had I used Redwood for the complete sign the damage would be minimal or had I made the sign from PVC there wouldn't be much, if any, hail damage.

Please show us what you're doing with regard to HDU signs.

Joe

[RossMosh]

As someone newish to the industry there are two main failures I'm constantly thinking about.

1. During production failures. This isn't exactly what this post is about, but it's just as costly if not more but it is less embarrassing. This can range from paint mask not sticking to paint, paint not sticking to the substrate, CNC machining error, to any type of human error.

2. Longevity of the sign. You obviously can't control everything but you want your work to hold up given predictable conditions. For example, we've had two very large storms over the last 5-6 years. These were unpredictable conditions but now, since they've occurred more regularly, it's at least wise to consider that when talking about materials and design.

I'd say the biggest issue in this industry, as in many industries dealing with raw goods, is the lack of good information available from the manufacturers. For example, I know you're not a fan of HDU because it moves. Now look at Signfoam's site: http://www.signfoam.com/signfoam.html. "Guaranteed not to warp or bow. Does not crack, rot or decompose." I find if I call any of the manufacturers for advice, it's hard to get real world advice. They aren't making signs. They may have 0 experience making signs. It's very difficult to get good advice from these various companies.

[GeneMpls]

Per your advise I have pretty much switched from HDU to PVC- it machines differently but with a bit of experience it works fine. Gene

[knight_toolworks]

make the sign out of ipe and it will survive the next coming, I think the stuff is bullet proof too.
what kind of pvc? just pvc foam?

[joe]

Thanks Gene,

This is a difficult transition to make. For those of us familiar with HDU, there will be a differ set of techniques required.

Steve,

PVC brands are a question for all of us. The issue comes because most stock doesn't have marking to identify the manufacturer. My favorite has been "Palight" that was distributed by N. Glantz. Keep in mind most 1/2" and thinner isn't good for exterior use. It's much softer. If you can score or dimple the surface with your nail, it's not what you want.

There are a couple of issue's I have. The dust is electrically charged and sticks to everything. Then there's the expansion with heat. Once you understand this factor, there are many creative solutions to be found.

HDPE: This is a non porous plastic. To the best of my knowledge, is un-paintable. It does come as a route through layered product. The layers are ugly primary, grade school, colors. I'd have so say I'd not consider this for creative dimensional signs.

Joe

[kurt_rose]

Hey Joe. Whats your thought on PVC and using dark pigment paint. I'm thinking that painting PVC black would be a no no. I've been using Extira with good results but hate the dust when cutting. I have a very good 2 stage collection system, but in the winter with all the doors closed I still get a bit of dust on table surfaces. PVC would be a lot lighter and also be better collected by the vacuum i'm sure. I have used it on a few signs that were light in color and they turned out fantastic. Just a little worried about the dark colors.

[Alex Naumenko]

In my shop I use (in no particular order) hdu, pvc, acrylic, aluminum, extira, eps and xps foam, concrete, hdpe, polymetal. All of those materials have its pros and cons. when working with a consumer I no longer tell what material will be used for sign. But I warranty that sign will last for a long time.
For a letters most of the time I use pvc and hdu, depends on size.
Routed signs all depend on size, location, and mounting requirements (post mounted, hanging, wall mounted)
Warpage of any material could be controlled by painting back of the sign one extra coat of paint than front. Or embedding some type of rigid structure in it.
I am only have 5+ years of sign making experiences. I only had two failures. First is glue on eps foam (my fault did not test it). Second is paint on redwood (Bad paint)

[joe]

Alex,

Don't forget Extira, if it's available, for cut out letters. The dust from this material is heavy and isn't prone to become airborn. Extira is too soft for 3d carving but Trupan was a dream. Better than HDU in almost every way.

Kurt,

Since 2012 I've been painting my 1" pvc with almost black DTM. It does need extra braces attached to the backs but so far no problems.

Rick,

Please tell us how you paint IPE? I've tried everything. Yesterday I called Regal Plastics and they said it was doubtful. So what are you recommending?

We need to see more sample photo's of work being done.

Joehttp://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25690&stc=1

[knight_toolworks]

to paint ipe you would seal it with shellac first or maybe a shellac based primer. never tested paint on it though. except for color purpleheart is a great outdoor wood too. no oil and extremely stable and pretty good price at least here.

[joe]

Steve,

I'd be remise to recommend any product that I haven't tried and proven to work in my local. I'm quiet sure shellac, which is a wonderful primer, will make IPE stable enough to paint on. For those of you who want to experiment, try painting a milk bottle. Let us know.

Joe

[knight_toolworks]

Steve,

I'd be remise to recommend any product that I haven't tried and proven to work in my local. I'm quiet sure shellac, which is a wonderful primer, will make IPE stable enough to paint on. For those of you who want to experiment, try painting a milk bottle. Let us know.

Joe I agree I have been testing things and finish I know IPE will hold up inself but as far as finish that needs to be tested.

[Alex Naumenko]

Background Extira. Logo HDU. Letters PVC. Paint Matthews and some acrylic. Hours vinyl on PVC
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[David Iannone]

Background Extira. Logo HDU. Letters PVC. Paint Matthews and some acrylic. Hours vinyl on PVC
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25746&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25747&stc=1

Alex that is an excellent example of mixing materials. Mathews Paint is the best in my opinion. I sold my mixing station back in 2006 when i moved 800 miles to GA. But I have a few jobs I cut from extira and primed and painted with Mathews back up there that to this day still look perfect up close. So that's about 10 years and paint is still good. Nothing like catalized paint. I will have to get one of the guys up north to take a pic so I can try to share. Anything you paint with Mathews is bullet proof, but it's not cheap and a paint booth is suggested. We ended up saving a lot of money by mixing a quart or pint at a time. And it's so easy to make the same color every time. I think most people don't know how easy it is to mix paint and match colors........Thanks for your post, that sign is a winner.

Dave