My First Real Paying CNC Sign Job

[Georgia Design Works]

Hopefully I'm finally putting my PRSAlpha to work. Landed my first sign job. It's a lobby sign for a local company. Many lessons learned here and I hope to improve the process and am open to any criticism or advise. Attached is a picture of the layout they wanted and a picture of the final product that I installed today. Let me attempt to upload these pictures. I probably underpriced the job but am hoping it will spawn more work.
George
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[RossMosh]

It's typically beneficially for everyone if you post materials/paints/process/ect when making a post like this.

As for pricing, especially on a job like this, Gemini is a very good reference. "Any" sign shop in the US can order from Gemini so you could use them as your pricing guide. That will keep you from giving it away or overcharging.

It looks very close to the photo and I like the way you added dimension to the block logo. The only thing else you should look into is a template for mounting. The kerning is not the same as the photo on the left, specifically on "Construction".

[Georgia Design Works]

Thank you RossMosh, and yes I am prepared to provide details ad naseum along with more pictures. I recently acquired my new PRSAlpha along with Aspire software to add to my woodshop. I already own a 75W laser so have much experience working with vectors in CorelDraw. The large lettering was CNC-cut from half inch BB ply. Thought about using pvc or acrylic but the customer was very picky about color and font to match their website logo. That meant getting a paint chip and having Sherwin Williams do a computer match. Small letters were laser cut from eigth inch BB, triple layered to build up to 3/8 inch. The large letters were fixed up with threaded rods and spacers to provide a standoff of 1/4 inch for added shadow detail. This hardware was purchased from Gemini who were more than happy to sell the hardware and offer some advice. But I did sense some disappointment from them when he learned that I was cutting my 14 inch letters out of .5 inch BB. He told me he never heard of any signmakers using BB for lettering and even joked that I need to sell my CNC and just buy the letters from them. That could have been a viable option at $25 - $30 a pop for each letter, but I needed to match the font for the customer and the CNC gave me the ability to choose from hundreds of fonts that I have in CorelDraw. Not to mention I already had several sheets of half inch ($29 a sheet). The 24 x 22 logo was Cnc cut from 1.5 inch PB, my first experience with this material. Bought a sheet of it for around $220. Sales guy offered a deep discount because it was one of the sheets that was slightly boogered on one edge. The stuff cuts like butter with an O-flute at 15500 rpm and 2 ips. I pocketed the block 1/4 inch deep to fit the "C" inserts made from 1/8th inch BB and .5 inch BB. Heres a few more pictures
George25776257772577825775

[Georgia Design Works]

The PB and all parts were primed with three coats of Sam Cook Sign Primer, a product recommended to me by the PB sales guy. Then I attempted to use a textured spray paint (Krylon Super Maxx Hammered) to give a hammered metal appearance to the block of PB. Took almost three days for the three coats to dry hard with no tackiness. The logo inserts and large letters were painted burgundy with SW acrylic latex applied with a foam roller. It gave the surface a sort of stippled orange peel which I didn't like so I tried using a brush but that left brush marks that I thought looked worse. The small letters were HVLP sprayed with black lacquer over 3 coats of the primer. These small letters were mounted directly on the wall with screws and tabs of double-sided tape. The screws are hidden by the top layer. The letters are assemble from three layers. Bottom layer is glued to middle layer which has a couple of 3/8 inch holes laser cut into it. The little round pieces are superglued to the bottom of the painted top layer to make it easy to register it over. The first two layers are screwed and double taped to the wall, then the cover is double taped over it to hide the screw holes. Here's a few more pictures.
George
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[Georgia Design Works]

As seen in an earlier picture the back side of the PB block was pocketed to fit a piece of 3/4 inch plywood. This wood was glued in with that PB glue that is spritzed with water to activate. Was set, I screwed an aluminum french cleat into the wood backer.
I made use of Aspire's ability to export vectors to a .dxf file. I could then open this file in Corel and use my laser to cut craft paper templates with hole locations for each letter. These templates were lightly tacked to the back of the BB letters with 3M Super77. I counterbored some shallow holes for the threaded plastic tabs. These I glued in with silicon adhesive. The next day as I was threading the rods in, the tabs pulled out of the holes. Silicon cement did not adhere to the tabs. I then cleaned out the pockets and reglued tabs with 2 part epoxy with no further problems. The same vector file was finally used to cut full sized templates to mount on the customers wall for letter and stud placement. Once the holes were punched, I could take the paper template down and mount the letters. Stud holes were filled with silicon cement and the letters were pushed in. With 3-4 studs per each letter I got a good friction fit to hold em in place till the silicon sets up. As I said, the smaller letter were mounted directly to the wall with 2 screws each and tabs of doublesided tape.
Material cost breakdown:
1 sheet of 1.5 inch PB - $220 (only used a small 22x24 piece)
1 sheet .5 inch BB - $29
1 sheet of .125 BB - $14
gallon of Sam Cook primer and pb glue - $35
SW paint (quart of Sundried Tomato, quart of Dorian Gray) - $45
Then, of course, is the CNC and laser time. Most of the time was spent watching paint dry.
Install took about 30 minutes.
Now for the bottom line, and please don't beat me up. I charged the customer $600 for the job.
I admit I underestimated the material costs and in hindsight I would have been happier with $800.
But I was anxious for the work, and the exposure so was willing to give them a good price.
I hope in the end it pays off with more work.
George257832578425782

[barrowj]

I'm not a sign maker but the job looks awesome. If the customer is happy, then that is good advertising. You could look at you cost of the 1.5 inch differently as you only used less than 1/8 of the board which would bring down the cost for the job. You could always use the rest in another job or even sell it to another woodworker.

Search the forum for past discussion on costing this type of job, I know of several in the past year. There is good information there.

Joe

[scottp55]

Thanks for posting the step by step and the pics George.
Looks like you learned a lot.
NOT a sign guy, but looks under-priced for all your trouble.
It is nice to see money come in for the first time, isn't it:)
Congrats

[steve_g]

“It is nice to see money come in for the first time, isn't it”

It’s nice to see money come in anytime! The thrill is still there after many, many years!
SG

[Alex Naumenko]

Congrats on the first job.
First thing you have to watch you kerning. Logo on paper looks right. but on the wall it is off. Or maybe it just an angle of the shot.
Second you can paint PVC with any acrylic paint without primer. Sheet of 1/2 from HD $75 and you don't have to glue any pads or stuck multiple layers of BB.
To help you pricing letters next time look at gemini catalog at will be a good starting point.

[RossMosh]

For letters, the way I like to cut them is to cut them from the back and have the CNC drill all the holes. Coming from the laser, you'll have to get used to not having a sharp interior corner but you should be able to do most jobs with a 1/8" bit or 1/4" bit and get good results. I like using 1/8" bits but if you're doing a 12" 3/4" thick letter, that's excessive. Using the CNC to drill the holes for studs is a big time saver because all you have to do is glue the studs at the end. To get some space off the wall, gluing scrap to the letter is a common practice. Sometimes simply using VHB tape is enough to handle the job.

As for material, you're going to find a lot of materials to work with. Acrylic, PVC, "Dibond", Gatorfoam, wood, HDU, and aluminum are some of the most popular. I'd also look into MDF as an alternative to BB. You'll find it's cheaper than BB and offers almost all the same benefits as BB. Search for cabinet grade MDF. Medex and Uniboard are two examples I've used.

Also one site I've found helpful for pricing and material options is http://www.woodlandmanufacturing.com/.

[Georgia Design Works]

Hey Alex, I'll have to look into that PVC from HD for $75. Wonder if that is decking material and does it come in 4x8 sheets? I have not used any PVC products yet and am anxious to try it.
And thanks again RossMosh for your helpful comments. When I cut the large letters out with the CNC I wanted to put a nice chamfer on the top edges so started with a profile tool path using a 60 deg v-bit. This allowed me to keep sharp inside corners, at least on the surface of the letters. Then I switched to a .25 EM and did the profile cutout. Because of the chamfer on the front, I didn't bother with counterboring the tab locations on the back. The vector graphic file I used was shared between the cnc and laser and it was no problem to quickly cut some paper templates with the tab locations. For many applications the laser is so much faster than doing the manual tool change, Z-zero, and material hold down on the CNC. With tab locations marked it took no time at all with a .75 forstner bit in a drill press to cut clean eighth inch deep holes on the backs of the letters.
This one job does not make me a sign guy, yet. I wasn't really sure what direction this CNC was going to take my business. Before the ShopBot I did mostly conventional woodworking for a mostly military clientele at a local Army Base. Custom built ins, display cases, flag stands, chain of command boards, policy letter boards, conference room displays with wall lettering and large layered military crests, etc, mostly cut out with a laser. For thicker materials I used the laser to cut thin templates to use for pattern routing of thicker parts on a table router. I also did lots of recognition awards such as raster engraved plaques, and sword holders and such. I was hoping that the 3d capabilities of the ShopBot would be a boon to my business by allowing me to produce a better product. This hasn't proven to be the case because I realize that the machining times for most 3d projects will price me out of reach. I can do a stunningly beautiful crest but the 10+ hours of machining and handpainting demands a price point beyond what most can pay. In this market anyway. In the meantime, I'm having a blast designing projects and using this CNC. I am building my resume right now with samples of what I can do. Most people have no imagination and they need to see something in order to see how this technology can fill their own needs. I am hoping that this lobby sign will generate other business. This is a large company that outsources many contractors for commercial jobs. The lobby traffic should create some inquiries. Maybe my future is doing house address signage for new subdivisions. Or architectural millwork. Who knows.
George

[robtown]

It's beautiful work. You way undercharged.

Gemini can produce letters from your .ai (export from corel) files BTW. You are not limited to using just the fonts they show. And you can just send them a PMS color number for the finish.

I've never seen PVC sheets at HD, but you can buy PVC "boards" in the lumber section up to 3/4" thick that can be used for letters to be mounted indoors. It has a wood texture on one side, but the other side is smooth.

You can also buy aluminum studs from McMaster Carr, drill a slightly undersized hole and thread directly into the substrate (carefully, and maybe with a dollop of epoxy on the end) , as opposed to the mounting pads from Gemini.

My first "sign" I charged $75.00 for, it probably cost me 3-4 times that much to actually produce.

[joe]

George, My complements on a job well done.

Like you, when I started out most of my work was under priced. That's what it takes to understand what it takes to make signs.

On wall lettering, I route a full sized pattern from 1/4" masonite, place it on the wall, then using E6100 they are glued in place. The letters are held in place for a couple of hours before removing the Masonite pattern. Haven't had a failure with this method in years.

PVC is far superior in almost every way. Don't you just hate the gritty mess HDU leaves behind. Not to mention the difficult priming process. PVC doesn't need priming with all most any paint.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25791&stc=1

[jerry_stanek]

I route card board templates for mine lighter than masonite and you can use painters tape to hold it in place. A few pieces of foam tape and some silicone to hold the letters up unless they are really big then I use studs.

[joe]

I'd rather have rootcanal than take a hammer drill on an install. Large, heavy letters can be held just fine with a good template and E6100. No tape needed. The only exception is for cast metal letters. I hire that out.

[Georgia Design Works]

Thanks Joe, Jerry, and Robtown for the feedback. That is some impressive signage in that attached image. I'm guessing that is PVC. I also checked out your website Joe. I was blown away. I'm going to look into some of that E6100 adhesive.
I cruised through Home Depot and Lowes yesterday looking for some substrates suitable for signage. I saw those PVC deckboards (trim boards) that you refered to. I asked about trupan, and azek and all I got was blank stares. I was told to go to their website and if its there I can order it and pick it up at the store. Or I'll just stick with Reece Supply Company out of the Atlanta area. I recently opened an account with them and was delighted to find out that they make a delivery run to my area every Thursday. That'll save me 4 hours of roundtrip driving. Everyone thanks for all the tips and advice.

[joe]

GDW

Thanks for the complements.

Yes the panels in the photograph are PVC from .75" stock. We get this material from Reece. Cost is about $145@. Be sure when ordering PVC to get at least .75" or 1" stock. This is exterior rated but .25" & .50" are not good outside. They will warp when painted with dark colors. For the past year I've been working on a parks project, for the City of Norman. All the signs are painted dark brown. There is some expansion to deal with but by leaving expansion fixtures there's no problem. Many of these signs are in playgrounds where children are climbing all over them. This material is tough enough to withstand the pressure they receive. The letters are cut from DiBond and inset which keeps them safe. My first attempt was with HDU. It didn't last long.

My favorite paints are PPG's DTM's and Nova Color. You gotta be choosey when ordering Nova since most of the colors are transparent and translucent but they do have some excellent opaque colors. It only comes by mail so you'll need to give them a call and request their color chart. There's no color chart in the industry like theirs. If you've never used transparent colors it's a real treat. You can get effects that really bring a sign to life. Once you try it, all other signs look like third grade, primary paintings. You know red, blue, yellow and greens look nice but with a little transparent grade to them they look really special

Joe

[Georgia Design Works]

Joe, That is some great info. I like the way you did the lettering on those park signs with the shadow contour. I was wondering if you would be painting the pockets or using inset letters. So I understand you will be using dibond letters inserted into those pockets. The PVC will be painted brown. That makes sense as the texturing will give it a wood appearance. And I'm assuming that the dibond lettering will be painted a bright constrasting color? What sort of primer and paint do you use on dibond? I would love to see a posted picture of one of those signs when it is completed.
Also Joe, could you explain what an "expansion fixture" is? Would that be something like a u-channel framework that holds the PVC sign and allows movement for expansion and contraction? Kinda like a raised panel door in a cabinet where the panel is held loosely in a grooved frame.
I have seen numerous references to Nova colors. I need to check that out. Thank you for sharing all this great info

[joe]

GDW,

Please take a look back at my previous posts on these topics. I hate to repeat myself and show photo's that have been before.

When I get time, I'm off for vacation, and will be glad to show one of the many methods of attachment that allows for expansion and movement of materials.

Joe

[bleeth]

Hey Joe:

Taking a road trip on the bike?
Stop on by-extra bedroom waiting.
(We should talk-it has been a while.)

Dave

[joe]

Thanks Dave,

This year I'm in Paris. I'll give you ring When I return.

Joe