Bright Long Lasting Channel Letters, and What It Takes

[wcsg]

Bright Long Lasting Channel Letters, and What It Takes



Here's one of the existing accounts that I've been maintaining for the last couple of years

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/OTF/IMG_7729.JPG

But what's just as important about how the sign looks during the day day and the visibility is what happens when the sun goes down . How well does the sign compete at night with neighboring signs, and how well is it defined? Does it stay defined?
http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/OTF/IMG_8385.jpg


http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/OTF/IMG_7733.JPG


http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/OTF/IMG_8139.JPG

How long will the sign stay illuminated at night and when it comes to illumination.....what will the lumen maintenance be, or light degradation over time?

It all starts with the components you choose to integrate with your project

[wcsg]

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/OTF/IMG_8379.jpg
(http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/store/category/22-led-power-supplies/)
Not only components do you have to concentrate on but also installation, after all a bad installation can kill a sign all which includes loading and assuring the shortest runs possible

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/OTF/IMG_8382.JPG

As some of you may already know The Sign Syndicate has been testing NC LEDs since 2010 in Project Tighty Whitey, The Red Light District, & Blue Light Special and after the first 8,000 hours I was pretty impressed in "PTW" that even at that short about of time we saw no light degradation. So I was always interested to see how they progressed, err....regressed in light as time went on.

As many of you know, I don't use LEDs as a primary light source for channel letters unless I have too.

When I have had to use LEDs over the years I've always been real careful about what LED manufacturer I use, and there is a VERY, VERY short list of who I use/used because I'm one of the few electric sign manufacturers that offers my clients a 5 year electrical "Worry Free" warranty that INCLUDES labor to change any electrical component out and I stress....."I"...chose to use for their sign.

Most sign shops stick to the 1 year state mandatory (contractors licensing law) warranty, and "optional" or limited component warranty that does NOT include labor for up to 5 years. So should some component YOU chose cra* out on your client then I guess they call you, you get a free replacement from the manufacturer and YOU end up charging YOUR client to replace something YOU specified out.....oh real nice!!!

With my clients I put my money where my mouth is, so that's why my list of who to use is short, if it goes bad because of what I specified out I eat it, NOT my client!!!

5 years is a long time, and those who pay attentions to the 3rd party testing that The Sign Syndicate has been doing since 2008 knows most LEDs don't last as long as claimed, at least when it comes to "usable" light.

I've been using NC LED for a particular program for a few years now where I have to use LEDs because the use of electrical component clearance is impossible for Neon. Over the years the results have been awesome using NC LED, and of course happy clients.


NC LED in Action These white 6500 NC LED's are used for the orange "Orange" and gray "Fittness"...yes that is 3M MED Gray over white acrylic, those LEDs are so bright they appear white! The red "Theory" is of course red, NOT white! By comparing the outside lighting with the Digital Display you can note that this picture image is NOT overexposed to give the false appearance of a brighter illuminated sign!

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/uploads/monthly_09_2015/post-3-0-01069000-1442786741.jpg


The main reason why I choose to use NC LED for my program before we even started selling it here which is obviously recent, is because from the testing we have been doing here namely Project Tighty Whitey as it applies here.....there are a few things in common the brighter white LEDs in the comparison that last longer than others have in common.

1st....Their made in Korea, very tight quality control, think "Japan"!.......NOT China where they have quality control issues. Don't let anyone tell you different, there is too much of a track record and case history for INCONSISTENCY and manufacturers have to constantly hold the hand of the Chinese to make sure they're getting consistency and this is why American companies play musical chairs with Chinese plants who make their products.

2nd....Their constant current, or current regulated on each module...NOT constant voltage aka "Eco". So if you're not familiar with that term Constant Current just know each module is 12 volts from the first to the last on a string. A LED module that is ...NOT CC is constant voltage, aka "Eco"! Those are unregulated and the first LED module on a string is different than the LED on the last, or middle. It also means the first LED on the string could be taking a big hit from the power supply because it's not regulated and you'll get faster degradation as well as uneven lighting.

This is not to say others that aren't with similar characteristics will last nearly as long (there have been exceptions), but degradation over 15,000 hours or 5 sign years is left on 8 hours a day has been about 0 to 3% of the original illumination, that's something that should interest you and the end user.


LED Comparison A small comparison of common purchased LEDs for medium sized channel letters and how they compare in brightness to the NC LED. The Agilight Apex (top) is a 1.6 watt module vs the NC HLCS2 which is a .92watt module, one foot candle of light difference, BUT a much higher cost for that one foot candle of surface light!
http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/uploads/monthly_10_2015/post-127-0-47239200-1444324299.jpg

[wcsg]

NC LED some with different three diode manufacturers, SOL, LG, & Samsung. I took a personal hand for us to use SAMSUNG, their white is brighter than the other configurations, it's more of a true 6500 white, and you need bright! The LED colors that we stock are SOL chip.

Every LED manufacturer has their marketing claims on Lumens, Viewing Angle, Lens..no lens, etc etc etc. From the Neon & LED testing we have been doing here on the Sign Syndicate they can throw all that out the window because it doesn't translate into anywhere when it comes to the sign industry, how we use them, and how it makes them last over time. 90% of the time it's just a sales pitch to throw at you on why you should buy their over another one. Who cares about Lumens when it comes to signs...we light up a sign face and only care about surface light! Viewing angle??? Don't get me started!

What do we care about being in the sign industry? That it's bright, and most importantly it lasts over time....well...at least the client does more so than the sign sign shop because it's them who will have to pay to re-retrofit to something else.

So, we're very happy to offer the NC LED light source product to our members that we know works as an option for your sign projects here on The Sign Syndicate. It's nice to add another High Brightness LED to our line up!

If you're the type of shop that just likes to stick to big name LED manufacturers because you think you're playing it safe and you're also not too familiar with the testing The Sign Syndicate has been doing since 2008 let me just say this. From all the testing we have been doing with out benchmark testing, and we've talked about it a lot in the past. You pay a lot of money to big name LED manufacturers and the product itself is most of the time is average and most a lot of times subpar compared to what's out there from a few small select LED manufacturers. You pay a lot and you get very little. What I mean by that is, you don't get a whole lot of light in return and you could pay significantly less and get a brighter light output and a product that will even last longer. Not all big names, but you'll have to download the quarterly results that we have in the Board forum and judge for yourself.

Like I said, there are VERY good results from a FEW select companies in Project Tighty Whitey (http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7410-october-2015-electric-sign-industry-neon-led-test-comparison-results/) and NC LED is one of those few, AND that's why I'm very proud to offer it to our members.

Why leave money on the table choosing someone else and why not have a more satisfied client using NC LED?



Basic NC LED Specs

• IP68
• 5 Year, 50,000 Hour Warranty
• Constant Current (Regulated) not Constant Voltage like cheaper "eco" LEDs
• Made in Korea.....NOT made in China
• High Brightness LEDs
• Samsung Diodes for white
• Sol Diodes for color

As I stated above, we're offering 100 of the most versatile NC LED Module which is the two diode module, the HLCS2 powered by Samsung for only $99.99 (http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/store/category/43-nc-led/)


The NC LED color line up
http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/uploads/monthly_09_2015/post-3-0-66653000-1442795446.jpg

[joe]

Is this a commercial add or what!

[Chuck Keysor]

I wouldn't quite call this post an ad. But it was a very informative promotion piece, which I am glad to have read. Chuck

[wcsg]

It's a little bit of both.

A little bit of the "Why" mixed in with promotion. Too many times we hear as consumers ..."It's the best...the brightest...the longest lasting"

What we need to know as users/consumer is why it wouldn't last as long as claimed. The difference between constant voltage vs constant current, and why it's a very good idea to stay away from Ebay products for commercial use, instead of personal use.

There have been a lot of massive failures in large sign programs and a lot of them have a lot in common in how the LED modules are designed, integrated, and manufactured. We've been testing just about all major manufacturers to some small fly by nights. I would only maybe use about 10% of what's out there, this just happens to be one of those.

All suppliers and distributors should be very open about who and where the diodes come from, if they don't know then it's probably time to worry. Most of the time their patent infringing, and because of that chances are that same integration won't be around shortly after the sale. This is why LED patent infringement suits are huge and big money and they can impact all those who stock, sold, use as a consumer.

We've doing the testing for the electric sign industry since 2005 in five categories involving LEDs, Neon & Fluorescent lighting, it's been an interesting fun ride and most of all educating.


Below is a good example of Project Tighty Whitey our exclusive LED benchmark only.

http://thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/LightTesting/Compares/PTW%20Compare%201015%201200.jpg

The target is 6500K modules, as you can see hardly any of those look like 6500 Kelvin, but don't let that fool you. If all compartments were shut down except for each individual one, you would think the light was actually a white white. But in a wide comparison, you will actually see that hardly any are white but range from green to purple. The better the white, the better the phosphors, and the tighter the bin selection process), the better the quality.

You also will see color shifting, what may one day be one shade can end up another entirely.

like I said, it's been educating

[joe]

This might not be the right forum for electrical.

[bleeth]

Thanks for the LED info: There is so much mixed info out there on comparable quality.
I had a light box project a while ago and went with the cheapo Chinese with click connectors and ended up having to redo due to sections having short life and controller dying.
Savings turned into loss. Now it's automatic that I use more traceable quality and solder joints when using strip lights.
I always enjoy seeing your work as well Erik.

[wcsg]

Thanks Dave!

For future reference, if you ever need an LED as bright as a T8 lamp that's used for both cabinets as well as large channel letters try this
http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7119-ultra-super-bright-channel-letters/

In the LED world, everyone knows "Nichia of Japan", their known for their phosphors which make their diodes super bright. These Axiom LEDs are amazing and sickly bright, I have never seen a brighter LED module....and can last as long too anyway.

This is a LED mfg we've had in our testing since 2005 in "The Great White Hope", and it lasted side by side GE's Tetra Power Max, it did slightly better. Both lasted just as long at 36,000 hours (12 sign years @8 hrs a day) as Tri-Phosphor Neon Lamps.

[scottp55]

Just wondering if you've ever run across an LED with the same color spectrum as a halogen? I've got LV halogen strips throughout the the house, but could use some LEDs for gem/mineral display cases, but need that approximate spectrum for true color rendition.
Thanks,
scott

[wcsg]

We have some Halogen MR16's at 6500K good for diamonds and crystals, not good for gold, and LED MR16's at 5700K. Both high end products from Ushio of America, the same company that does the Luxor pyramid lighting that you can see form space.

If it's a certain spectrum that you're looking to achieve then that's the pro's and con's of the various light sources and why you would not look to replace one for the other. We sold the Axiom High Powered LED modules to a Theme Display Company that builds for PPG Paint recently for the purposes of display cases to show off their paint accurately.

[scottp55]

Thanks, Yep...Buy,Saw,Cut, and display Opal with the same Halogens.
Thanks,
scott

[RossMosh]

Just a suggestion, but if you want to build business from this forum, it probably would be a good idea to show how someone with a ShopBot can create these types of signs legally. If people can use their ShopBot to create these types of signs without too much of a learning curve, you're going to sell components as a result and everyone will be happy. This post just reads "Call me if you need LEDs" and doesn't really say "Here's how to use your ShopBot to create this type of sign. By the way, we also sell the LEDs to create these signs."

[joe]

Ross, I'm with you.

[David Iannone]

I have been following this post. The timing could not have been better. I have found it interesting and informative.

Believe it or not I am getting into making channel letters by next week. I have the new millermatic 211 mig with aluminum spool gun ($400 rebate on this combo till end of year) arriving tuesday. I ordered LED wizard from Aries graphics. I also ordered some channel letter shaping tools from china on ebay. I plan on offering only LED as lighting. I am going to try to keep it simple. Use my Shopbot to cut the faces, backs, and the returns with notches. Then flange them. All mill finish aluminum then paint the cans. I have one customer that says they can supply me with one channel letter job a month.

I am about to fumble into an area of signs I have not tried to do before, so anyone who would give me a few "not to do's" I would appreciate the tips. By this weekend I have to have the first job done. 2- 24" letters and the software arrives Wed. we will see but my customer does understand my learning curve.

I am just trying to figure out ways I can keep my bot busier in my trade.

Thanks,
Dave

[wcsg]

Unfortunately, I'm only targeting a small audience.

I can't teach the average shopbot user who doesn't fabricate electric signs for the trade over the Internet, only those that are already some what in....or already in.

Anyone planning on fabricating sign cabinets, structures, or channel letters is also going to have to get themselves listed by a laboratory such as MET Laboratories, or U.L. for the finished product. Their also going to have to be familiar with the trade itself and how signs are constructed, and what those expectations are.

My main point is to educate the types of LEDs out there on the market and what our testing over time has shown, and LED's aren't always the best option for illumination. LED manufacturers always claim a 30k, 40k, or 50k hour operation wheras before it used to be 100k hours but since that time even they have learned that is not possible. even at 30k hours of operation the LED string still might be functional, but at what cost? Only still usable light? Usable light does not define the degradation overtime, which seems to be huge. Neon is still a very strong efficient reliable source that is proven, but of course that is for the experienced to install

I've seen some signs illuminated by individuals on this board who can route/carve signs but they shoot themselves in the foot by choosing some piss poor products that might illuminate well at first but fail badly overtime for the consumer. Most of the time the product is chosen because the rep at the sign supplier said "they're good". It's kind of like running a race having a large lead, only to fall on your knees or crawl past the finish line but not before others passing you up.

As fabricators it's our job to build and pick the best components possible for the consumer, and it's for that reason why they would chose to call us back over the long haul for their next venture or expansion.

Every electric sign should be guaranteed and built for a 5 year warranty that also includes/states that the illumination will not degrade under 80%/70% from the original illumination in that time. But that's just me...that's how I build and guarantee my work.


@ David

On your next job, I would invite you to keep a string of the LEDs you use for this job and try what we've been testing on the next and do a side by side comparison, I think you'll be VERY impressed! Good luck on your new venture!

[Alex Naumenko]

You don't have to be UL or MET certified if you want to make channel letters or electrical signs. I would still recommend to use ul recognised power supply and sign assembly methods.
It is required in some states and municipalities. Check your local codes first.
In my case I am not comparing led to neon. I am only working with leds and comparing leds to leds.
I've been using p-led for three years now. I don't see any considerable light loss. There is nobody in my area who would do neon.
I am currently in the process of retrofitting 15 year old neon sign with leds. Out of 13 letters one is bright as my new leds (could be replacement), 4 went out and rest have different brightness. Customer wants new lights. I was giving price for a new neon $75 a letter. And I need to pick them up 6 hours away. When I gave a costumer price for neon replacement vs led retrofit hi went with leds.