Further development in the Saw-Stop Story

[bleeth]

A federal Judge ruled against an appeal by Ryobi Parent on a case that awarded 27K to a guy who cut off three fingers on his Ryobi portable. The Jury ruled in favor of the plaintiff based on negligence by Ryobi in selling a saw without stop technology.
Below link from article in Woodworking Network:
http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/news/woodworking-industry-news/court-ruling-favors-flesh-sensing-technology-table-saws

I imagine there will be further appeals.

The overall affect could mushroom. As the Consumer Safety Council considers a regulation requiring flesh sensing technology on all table saws the obvious conclusion to me is that the uproar is being exaggerated by the lawsuits. No doubt that the technology, per se, is good. And certainly the cost up front is way cheaper than injury. On the other hand the vast majority of woodworkers have no major injury in their entire lives. I have only seen a blade jump out of a saw once. Of course, it was because the idiot didn't tighten the nut properly and the blade didn't actually leave the area as it was coming loose.

Would they next require such technology on band saws, table routers, shapers, jointers? These are arguably much more dangerous to operate than a table saw.

[Brian Harnett]

There is an element of risk on any tool improper use or lack of training is usually the issue.

[donek]

This is made possible by a society that believes it has no personal responsibility.

[Brian Harnett]

What concerns me is how many manufactures will stop making some types of tools for ridiculous liability issues. Can Ryobi sue for stupidity? No mater how safe something is made a fool will get hurt.

This precedent is worrisome.

[Bob T]

9k per finger, at least the incentive is not too high. You can buy a safer car, it costs more. A warning on the saw at the point of purchase that there is a safer option available should be sufficient, but probably won't be. I would be interested to know if sawstop system has ever failed. Imagine what that lawsuit would look like. . .

[GeneMpls]

This is made possible by a society that believes it has no personal responsibility.

Or maybe the Lawyers telling society that it has no personal responsibility?

[Xray]

I heard about this case, don't agree with the verdict. The guy was operating the saw with the blade guard removed, that alone probably would have prevented or at least minimized the injury.
I feel for the victim here but is well known that table saws are inherently dangerous to operate, sounds to me this guy had no business being around one. I wonder if the guy was doing anything else stupid like free hand cuts ?

Don't agree btw with OP assessment that band saws, table routers, shapers, jointers are more dangerous than table saws. Certainly not a router. I think tool injury stats would verify this. Only tool I can think of that has the potential for more carnage than a table saw would be a chain saw, and those are used no where near as often as table saws.

[Ajcoholic]

When I was setting up my shop, if there was this very quick stopping tech available on my big Griggio (it is now, but not in 2010), my 16" jointer, or a few other machines - I would probably have paid the extra.

For me, some machines are just "safe" from a point of what you do with them and how they are used. Take a planer for instance... unless you deliberately stick your hands into the fully enclosed machine, you cant possibly come into contact with the cutter head. Similarly I use a larger 7.5 HP shaper daily - but 99% of the time with power feed, or other guards, etc that also make contact with the cutter very unlikely unless you are trying to get hurt.

Others, like a band saw really depends upon what you are doing. Sure, if you are cutting with the upper guide all the way up, and trying to hold small parts (or irregular shaped, round or similar that might get pulled out of your hands) you can get cut. With the blade exposed just enough to make the cut, and your work flat on the table I'd consider the BS one of the safer machines in the shop. I was using one in my fathers shop by age 9 or 10, standing on a box he made me (back in the early 80s').

Others like the ubiquitous 10" table saw - can be super safe when guarded and cutting larger material - but can also be prone to accidents when called upon to do all the other tasks that it is relied upon to do, in many shops. Some tasks that are very hard to guard, and/or just require the operator's hands to be closer to the blade than they really should be.

I base my opinion working 20+ years in a custom wood shop with most standard machinery available. Day after day, using several saws, sanders, cutting and shaping tools, etc the 10" table saw still is #1 on my list of tools with more potential to cause injury - again mainly due to the fact that they are somewhat like a "Swiss army tool" in many shops.

On my big Griggio, (C45 - a standard 10' slider with a 14" blade) I seldom cut anything but rip and cross cut sheet goods. Your fingers are never anywhere near the blades (both of which are always guarded). Very hard IMO to get hurt.

I actually consider my larger edge sander to be fairly dangerous - as the potential to grab something out of your hands and allow your fingers/knuckles to get "sanded" by a fresh 60 grit belt is pretty high. I usually watch the new guys very closely on that machine, and being a sander, it gets less respect I think in general VS a cutting tool.

Anything has the potential to hurt when it comes down to it. Especially if you dont care. But, based on my own experiences in the trade (and knowing several shops within a few hours of mine) I know more people who have gotten hurt on a saw VS anything else.

[gundog]

I used to think to myself just how dumb do you have to be to cut off a finger or hand on a table saw. Three years ago I cut my thumb 3/4 of the way off with a table saw so now I know just how dumb you have to be. No excuse on my part I keep my blade guard off because I regularly make dado cuts with it and my guard must be removed to do that. I know they have guards that are supported from above but I did not have one. What I did was cut a small piece of plywood about 2" wide by 16" long I pushed it through the blade with a plastic push stick with my right hand but I reached around the back side of the blade to keep the piece against the fence with my left hand at least that was what I intended to do. I have done this many times in the past but this time all my attention was on the right hand with the push stick I stuck my hand into the blade rather than around it I am very lucky it was not my whole hand.

Results I spent 6 hours in surgery reconnecting the thumb cut right across the knuckle. My thumb is not as functional as it once was but I still have it the knuckle joint is fused and will not bend. I have some feeling in the end of it but not normal and it gets cold as hell in the winter I don't have good circulation in it. The scar is barely noticeable I would have to point it out to someone for them to notice. It took me a long time to be able to do certain things you take for granted like threading a nut on a bolt or picking something up that requires feel. It is much better now than it was in the first twelve months but not like before. I am much safer now but still don't own a Saw Stop although I would like to buy one.

Mike

[coryatjohn]

The same thing happened in the GA airplane industry. There were a rash of truly ridiculous lawsuits against the various manufacturers for planes that were 30+ years old. The result was a number of them simply stopped making planes. Oddly, Congress stepped in and enacted the GARA law which limits liability on aircraft and that allowed the manufacturers to start up again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Aviation_Revitalization_Act

[bleeth]

I won't fault anyone who decides that a stopping version of a tool is worth the money. I am not commenting on anyone's personal preference in a tool in this thread. IMHO that is a personal decision entirely up to the individual.
It's the ridiculous verdict and supporting judgement in this case and the implications for overblown regulation to come that gets to me.
If anyone didn't notice, this case is right up the road from me and has it's usual taint of overly litigious Floridians involved.

[rb99]

I bought a snowblower a number of years ago to clean off a skating rink on the river beside my house. I was not aware of how dangerous it was until I got a snow shovel completely pulverized. I was working around it without realizing I was a foot or two from a life changing experience.

[jerry_stanek]

Part of the trouble with Saw Stops they want to be the only one that can have this technology.

[coryatjohn]

I bought a snowblower a number of years ago to clean off a skating rink on the river beside my house. I was not aware of how dangerous it was until I got a snow shovel completely pulverized. I was working around it without realizing I was a foot or two from a life changing experience.

Any machine with a 4hp+, spinning metal and lots of exposed parts is inherently dangerous. The trick is to keep the easily lost pieces of our bodies out of harm's way. Sounds like a SB too. I hope you respect that machine. It can kill and maim you just as easily, perhaps easier.

[Simops]

Part of the trouble with Saw Stops they want to be the only one that can have this technology.

Exactly.....they have their nose out of joint because all the other tool manufacturers won't use their saw stop technology under exclusive licence (at an exhobarant price I'm sure). Hence they have it in for Bosch developing their own version.
I respect patents and the right to protect an invention. But I also support competition, and if another manufacturer develops their own system then that's good for the consumer. Monopolies are never good for the enduser.
Really as I see it the only similarity between the two systems is Flesh Sensing....but then how else can it be done.
Anyone know when the Saw Stop patent expires?
If the judicial or regulators believe that flesh sensing technology is that important to have then it should be available to all at a reasonable competitive price and not push it on to all at a monopolised basis.
I applaud Bosch for developing their own system....
Cheers

[joe]

All my saws, Table, Articulating Chop Saw, Band Saw, and scroll saw scare the **** out of me. Geeeees these saws are dangerous as hell. Although I've never been hurt but one of my workers lost three fingers on the table saw.

Being frightened, and taking ones time is helpful.

[Ajcoholic]

Exactly.....they have their nose out of joint because all the other tool manufacturers won't use their saw stop technology under exclusive licence (at an exhobarant price I'm sure). Hence they have it in for Bosch developing their own version.
I respect patents and the right to protect an invention. But I also support competition, and if another manufacturer develops their own system then that's good for the consumer. Monopolies are never good for the enduser.
Really as I see it the only similarity between the two systems is Flesh Sensing....but then how else can it be done.
Anyone know when the Saw Stop patent expires?
If the judicial or regulators believe that flesh sensing technology is that important to have then it should be available to all at a reasonable competitive price and not push it on to all at a monopolised basis.
I applaud Bosch for developing their own system....
Cheers

Politics aside - and I really do mean that, I dont have any use for it... Sawstop has recently worked with Griggio to debut the first large scale, full size panel saw with breaking technology. Thats amazing to me, and I would have bought one for sure if there were available 5 or 6 years back.

So far, Bosch has just the light weight, low power contractor/jobsite saw with their version of the brake. Thats pretty much useless to me, as no way would I give up 5 HP and a full contained cabinet, with awesome dust collection, in the shop. Unless they debut at the least something on the lines of a 3 HP saw with cast iron top etc, its not a shop saw.

I am sure in years to come, more and more tools will have some sort of breaking tech. Geesh - look at the tools from 50 years ago with much open, drive systems not covered, etc. In another 10, 20 + years who knows what will be developed.

[Burkhardt]

Come on... what can possibly happen....

http://www.streamlineworkspace.com/thumbs/item/1024x768/32176/19703/r_20-4.jpg