Request: Writeup For Push Through Acrylic Signs?

[RossMosh]

Does anyone have a write-up or any documentation building push through acrylic signs? I understand the basics of it, especially from the router perspective, but I feel like there is still a few holes in my understanding. My guess is at some point some sign publication put something out there? If anyone could point me in the right direction, it would be appreciated.

[bleeth]

Try digging through signcraft archives.
As long as you understand that the letters are rabbeted at the correct depth so they stop at the desired depth and select the right adhesive so they bond to the field that's about it.
If it's acrylic on acrylic I use acrylic adhesive (the stuff you squirt with a hypodermic needle-hold letter in place and squirt carefully around the outline and some of it will ooze in between the back of the field and the face of the rabbet and set up quickly) and for aluminum (dibond) I like 5200.
I usually use a .005-.01 tolerance between the cutout and the inlay. My software has an inlay wizard which automatically compensates for bit size so corners are appropriately rounded. Only way I know of to get squared corners is with a laser, but typically I will use a 1/4" bit since generally letters are large enough and sign is viewed from enough distance that the corners don't look like a big radius in comparison.

[RossMosh]

Thanks for your reply. I've done various searches and I haven't come up with anything sadly. I'll keep searching though. To be specific about my questions:

1. Box construction: I see a lot of people using ACM around the UK and Europe but in the US, it seems like it's mostly aluminum. Folding ACM with the router is a breeze so I'm curious if it's a legal thing or not. Also I've read white is the best color for the box so white ACM seems like a really solid choice. I'm also curious how one knows how deep to make the box.

2. Light placement & type: To be perfectly honest, the actual wiring is not an issue. Can't get much simpler than DC electronics. Picking the right hardware and placing the lights is a subject I know very little about.

3. Material choice: Seems split between translucent colored acrylic and clear cast. Seems as though clear cast wins more often than not because you can apply vinyl to get the color you want. Most people seem to use 1/2" acrylic and then apply a 1/4" backer or use .75" acrylic and leave a lip so they don't have to glue the acrylic. Is there anything I'm missing?

4. Finishing: Do you sand the edges of the clear acrylic to get a better light dispersion? What kind of vinyl is best for this application? Do you apply the vinyl on the face, back, or both?

5. Legality: What can I offer before needing to be UL certified? I assume I can do all the CNC work but after that, I need to be UL certified.

[bleeth]

The answer in general is that there is more than one way to skin that cat.
For indoor use I've built the boxes out of plywood. Exterior I use aluminum and have them sheared, bent, and tacked by a sheet metal shop.
The advantage of using vinyl is you only need clear acrylic. But it may fail over time. I only do these at all occasionally so guys like Alex and Eric know a lot more than I do.
Maybe you should PM them.
Some projects may require a UL approved shop by specification but most do not. Buying UL fixtures to put in the box is a no-brainer to me. I've only used fluorescent fixtures in backlit signage.

[joe]

Congratulations on going with push-thru lettering.

There are so many ways to approach these kind of signs. The technique is most often used for interior mall signs. The effect isn't all that impressive for signs that will be viewed from a distance. Do you have anymore instructions or layout of the proposed sign.

One of the best wholesale cabinet manufacturers is ESCO. They ship the aluminum extrusion in pieces for you to bang together. All UL Approved. They will even put it all together wired up with the lights.

Routing the plastic letters along with the painting is the smaller part of this kind of work. This kind of work is often priced out by the square foot @ $185.00 depending on installation and permits.

Please give us more information on what you're after.

[RossMosh]

Congratulations on going with push-thru lettering.

There are so many ways to approach these kind of signs. The technique is most often used for interior mall signs. The effect isn't all that impressive for signs that will be viewed from a distance. Do you have anymore instructions or layout of the proposed sign.

One of the best wholesale cabinet manufacturers is ESCO. They ship the aluminum extrusion in pieces for you to bang together. All UL Approved. They will even put it all together wired up with the lights.

Routing the plastic letters along with the painting is the smaller part of this kind of work. This kind of work is often priced out by the square foot @ $185.00 depending on installation and permits.

Please give us more information on what you're after.

The short answer is it's not for a particular project. It's for my personal education. I'm restructuring my business plan a bit and going to attempt to work with the local shops that don't have CNC machines. This is a popular type of sign so I'd like to be able to at least speak with a general level of knowledge and ideally offer some or most of the components for a sign like this. At this point I feel I've learned enough to speak about the process with a general knowledge and now I'd like to actually attempt to make a sample. I'd rather get 80% right my first time than 60%.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about but obviously there are millions on Google image:
27062

To clarify my question about ACM here is a link to what the folks in the UK and Europe seem to be doing with their boxes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0msIkHd_oM https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=437584. This is obviously very appealing to me as it's incredibly easy to construct a box like this out of ACM using the CNC. The thing is I don't see this method advertised the same way as it is over there. This makes me think it's down to a legality issue.

As I've mentioned above, if ACM is okay to build the box, what depth does the box have to be? Is thinner better than thicker? Is there a formula? In my head I'd think using LEDs you'd want about a 3-4" thick box but that's just a random guess.

My other question is the details. For example, what find of edge finish is best on the acrylic letters? Is off the router good to go? Do you need to sand? Do you need to polish? Is laser cut better than router cut? Do you apply vinyl on the backside of the letter for better light dispersion or would that actually prevent light dispersion? To me, these details make the difference between a mediocre presentation and a professional presentation.

My other main question has to do with the lighting. Is it just a testing thing to figure out the best location and type of the lights? Should I even think about this since I'm not UL certified?

I attached a PDF of what I think goes into this type of process using a random logo from Brands of the World.27063

[wcsg]

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4641-acrylic-push-through-vinyl-faces/

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3255-yes-its-really-that-bright/

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1432-lumahaze-channel-letters/

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/694-channel-letter-project/

I did share a few here, did a quick search
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?15562-Illuminated-Lobby-Signs

[joe]

Ross,

Now I see what you're after.

Wish we had more seasoned sign artist posting. The information you're after isn't rare and at one time your questions would have been answered in haste. Wish I had the answers to share. While we do some LED signs, Push-Thru isn't our kind of work.

I'd be careful about taking any advice from sign retailers like the one above. It's all about sales. I'm amazed at the hooey they keep posting. Please investigate their website to get a better idea of who they are and what they don't do. There one of the most aggressive on the market.

[wcsg]

Joe,

You need to stick with what you do best, dimensional signs.

Electrical just isn't your can of soup and when you try to mix the two with your posts, some projects you have done and offer to others is real bad, real bad advice. As anyone who reads the last link I posted from a thread on this board they will see/read that you have little to nothing to offer in correct advice in that department. It sounds like your taking advice from a sign supply rep or something you read from a trade magazine brochure material and believed. Instead of chiming in on what little you do have to offer which is negative you should just opt out of chiming in at all so you don't mislead the OP. You seem to have problems everywhere you go and with a lot of individuals on any board where you post, you constantly whine and suffer from a bad case of "Old Lady Syndrome". Sadly, most of the time I don't even pay attention to your constant rebuttals after my posts but being on this board and on others where you are, your symptoms seem to have progressed.

Oh and anyone reading, please do investigate the site if you have the time and want to learn more for your projects here, it's an electrical sign trade forum, filled with the best and brightest in the industry electric sign component manufacturers too electrical engineers. information that, well contradicts Joe's advice that he gives here and everywhere else when it comes to the electric sign trade.

[joe]

Reading this guys commercial ads is a fools errand!

[RossMosh]

Rather than going down the rabbit hole, I'd like to ask some specific questions based on a previous post you made. I actually read it previously which is why I made this post because it was a bit of a source of confusion. Original Post: www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?11988-need-help-with-first-push-through-sign&p=104199#http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?11988-need-help-with-first-push-through-sign&p=104199#post104199st104199


Your working with LEDs, so what you want to do is string your modules along the length of the back going horizontal, from the quick look you will want two rows.

You don't want to use reflectors with LEDs, you want flat white paint for the interior. This is because LEDs are pinpoint light with a limited viewing angle.

For push thrus it's best to use a rear panel or apply vinyl to the back of your letters, acrylic panel use 2337 white, vinyl use 70% diffuser film. On the fronts apply whatever translucent vinyl you desire, if your going for white letters use white trans.

It looks better on the front of the letters if you inline 1/16" of an inch from the edge. Sand your letter sides, don't flame polish.

The way you applied your LEDs will not give you an even distribution of light, thats why even from the picture you have bright ends and a very dim center.

Also, your box judging from those LED mods, use a depth of 5"


Links below you will need to register first before viewing
Here's a link for a job I did and how you would want to run your LEDs for your box, the same way neon is run
http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3255-yes-its-really-that-bright/

another example
http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1206-reverse-channel-set/

So my questions are:

1. How do you determine 5" box depth for that sign vs 6" or 4" or 8"? In my head, with LEDs, the box should be somewhere between 3-6" but that's just me guessing.
2. Are horizontal strips always the best way to go?
3. Are ACM boxes legal? If they are, why don't people use them more often?

4. When you say sand the acrylic, what kind of finish are you looking for? I assume something like a 220 grit, frosted look?
5. The 1/4" backer plate should be made from 2447 white acrylic or put some 70% translucent white vinyl? Are there any pros and cons to either?

6. Lastly, is there a document out there I can read on legality of this specific type of sign?

[wcsg]

The depth is all based on intended use.

at 5" in some of those links the sign is outdoors, and usually high up, and at that height you won't see any "tube" or LED depending on your light source. If your intended use is a lobby sign or something where the public has access too then you're going to want to make a thinner profile, 3" or so. But keep in mind the thinner the profile the more light sources you will need to prevent hot spots. You'll want to spend more time and materials on the more visible low to the ground projects rather than something installed 30' up, mainly because you would have to be at the right angle to see a lamp anyway, like eye level.

On the dimensional letter push thru it depends on your intention. Do you want to cut out individual 1/2" letters and bond/adhere them to a backer commonly used for smaller letters or are the letters much bigger and too much weight where you want to route each letter with a individual flange (area clear 1/8" depth of 1/2" substrate), usually a 1/2" outline that you double stick tape behind the panel with VHB tape and silicone, or use a stud welder and mechanically fasten in the rear. I usually use a stud gun for larger letters i.e. 18" - 3'

If you have smaller letters and you want all your letters to bond to one large sheet or in sections behind the face and it's low to the ground I suggest using 2447 instead of clear because if you're using LEDs for a smaller profile project you won't see the pinpoint lighting as you would with a clear backer. You will loose some some light but not much, but that's the cost for concealing the pinpoint lighting.

If you're using LEDs for your light source the rows are not necessary as you would with say CCFL or Neon Lighting. I would just do a simple outline for your parameter halo and right behind where the push thru's are. Also, for longer longevity of LED life, use Constant Current LEDs and always mount them on Alum or metal if you can, on plastic they will not dissipate heat as well and heat is not an LEDs friend. Lower wattage LEDs don't produce as much heat and it won't be as much of an issue but lower wattage won't give you as much light. The brighter the LED, the hotter it will get.

I've never made out of ACM, usually .063 or .080. You can do that in a couple of ways based on what you have access to tool wise. If you have pan brakes then route out a T-shapes face and bend the returns and later bondo and weld, or just bondo depending on the weight and size of your sign face. Or, route just a face and use alum angles 1"x3"x1/8", miter the corners and HVB or a Adhesive systems the face to angles, and later bondo the creases or open veins, then paint.

ACM is usually 1/8? That would take a lot of depth from say 1/2" or 3/8" push thru's letters, or not, just never tried using ACM because a lot of my customers have like the hand brushed alum look and I usually have a lot of alum sheets in surplus. Don't think I've ever seen ACM used in this manner.

If it's smaller projects using a rear panel of 1/8" 2447 or clear will help stabilize by bonding those two with VHB tape and silicone the parameter to your say...063 alum face and then later use weld-on 16 adhesive for letters to panel. People usually use clear for their 1/2", 3/8", 3/4" push thru's.

on documents, well depending on your local building departments that's affiliated with the NEC 600, and if UL or other equal listing lab such as MET then that would be in say UL48. If you're already a subscriber of a listing lab then you'll have to go by those guidelines which isn't anything if you're using LEDs. Which leads to the last part.

Where are your power sources goign to be? Remote, behind the wall, above the ceiling or all inclusive inside your sign structure? That's where you have to worry about your disconnect switch and how you label your sign, as a section or single unit like a cabinet. Do you want you rswith on the sign itself or on the remote supply?

It all will depend on what you have to work with and what you have access to.

[wcsg]

Reading this guys commercial ads is a fools errand!

Says the man who has nothing to offer in this situation, project or thread.

[wcsg]

Ahhhh, forgot to add.

When cutting your sign face. Outline your lettering .030 and use that for your cut sign face file, and better to use a 1/8" O bit, depending on your sign face, if it's a 3' x 20' panel then 1/4" is fine.

On a personal touch I like to leave 1/16" outline of my acrylic around the translucent vinyl/film BUT, it can open you up more to seeing imperfections such as pinpoint lighting or adhesive if you didn't fully engulf the letters to the back panel. A lot of people like to cover the acrylic first before routing. Mine has always been route first and letter second, but it's just preference, leaving a 1/16" exposed gives a cool silvery glow/outline

[Alex Naumenko]

270882708927090
Here is a sample of push thru I made for my shop. Background is HDU. Letters are capped with ACM per our county ordinance. My cans are 3" deep for interior and 5-6" for exterior signs. 3" will cost more because of the amount of leds need to be used.
I do use ACM and aluminum for the face. 0,5 clear acrylic is my minimum for the letters.
P.S. FISH using different brand of LED than MARKET. It is my LED test.