What has happened to our creative postings?

[joe]

It's such a shame we have so few creative postings showing what can be done. The forum has become so mundane with technical questions.

Perhaps that's the future but it's not very encouraging about what could be made. Once upon a time we had lots of creative work showing up. What's happened?

[steve_g]

Joe, here’s my theory…

Many years ago, there was a time when computers were not ubiquitous… As a young man, I was excited about every new advance in personal computers. I regularly attended our local user group, “surfed” to various bulletin boards over my dialup modem and couldn’t wait to show what I had coaxed my computer to do! My children never knew a time where there was no word processor/Publisher, internet, Facebook, snapchat or Video games, their excitement level about computers is very low. My grandkids, who have school lessons and homework to do on their tablets aren’t enamored at all!

Just like computers, CNC fabrication was new and exciting for “us” we couldn’t wait to show our compatriots what we had done… We are getting old! The new kids on the block see the CNC tool as a standard tool, something no longer controversial because the Green brothers didn’t do it that way!

We are no longer excited about Tabitha Babbitt’s contribution to wood working, but accept her invention as ordinary… so too is what we were once very excited about!

By the way… I’m still excited about my computer and my ShopBot!
SG

[joe]

I understand.

So what's being done by wall those fellows and their CNC's? Are we reduced down to not making exciting visual projects? I think not. More than likely the artists and creative work is being done elsewhere.

There's a place for mundane questions like "Feeds and Speeds" or how to make standard routine products like knives, forks and spoons. Good for them but I'd rather go to work for Wallmart. That's not the work of the creative mind.

[Burkhardt]

I have been on this forum only since 2013 so I don't know what was different in the "old times" but I have enjoyed the ideas and projects posted here even if I do not often post a reply and I find many of them "creative". Now, since this is the Sign Making section I suspect the Creatives here are mostly professionals and as Steve mentioned, the novelty of things doable with CNC may have worn off a bit. I bet there are still many people creating great sign work with or without CNC but maybe not posting on a CNC forum anymore.
I am trying to contribute my wacky ideas occasionally here for entertainment purposes but I am not much of an artist and my creativity is more on the engineering side. But even if my stuff is sometimes not easy to replicate (or profitable for a business) maybe it triggers other ideas that can push the envelope for CNC.

[joe]

GB,

Thanks for posting. Perhaps there was a time when lots of guys thought they would get into the sign business with a router. However the equipment isn't the answer. It takes a creative mind and talent. I've come to realize entering this trade one of the musts is to be able to draw. That the shorthand. Then you need to quickly become familiar with letter styles. The best fonts cost money.

A little hobby CNC is not the best entry level equipment needed. And if you start with low prices it will end up doing you in. For example Home Owners Assn's, Churches, or non-profits of all kinds are business killers. I've been saying for years, there are impoundments of money ready for the taking. That's where a new business owner needs to go. Go For The Money! So few people understand this. The new little Mom and Pop shop going into business, is likely, have limited fund. A better choice might be a new Law firm. Look around at Dental Clinics, Chiropractors, OBGYN Offices, Dr. Offices of all kinds or just anything that has to do with medicine can be good prospects. But you must be ready with the artwork and know what you're doing. Professional like these can spot a part timer a block away so you got to be on your toe's. A brochure or sample booklet can be helpful.

Here's a sample brochure from the past.
What I intended to do with this page was to establish the business. This one seemed to work best of all I did. To make sure, I took out a second phone # which allowed me to know where the calls were coming from.


http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27915&stc=1

[Ajcoholic]

Ive been here 4+ years now. It seems pretty much the same to me. Im not a sign guy, so I dont know if you are meaning the forum as a whole, or this sub forum only.

It is true that at the beginning (I got my machine and started posting in Feb 2012) I shared more of what I was working on, than I do now, even though I use the machine much more and for more varied work compared to the first year. However, when you are working long busy days, day after day, it isnt always on your mind to take photos and post on the forum (at least in my case). Also, some things just might not seem post worthy enough to bother with.

I still see enough new stuff here to make me check it out at least every few days.

The other thing is - this is a "Shopbot CNC forum", not a design and artistic specific forum. Knowing what feeds, speeds, cutters, hold down methods etc are all vitally important in respect to using your machine. I have never had an issue with people asking technical questions.. I think that is one of the more important aspects as many times learning from other's experience can be so beneficial. I know I have learned a lot from asking those types of "mundane" questions.

[ByronConnDesign]

I'm relatively new to the forum, but for me they go hand in hand. The better you understand the technology and machine, the better it can be used in creative process. It's always cool to see the physical results of the problem solving that happens here.

[joe]

Andrew,

I think your time frame is about right with regard to not much has changed in the past few years.

At this time there are few artists compared to years past. What we have now, for the most part are Hobby Guys. Without the artists as we once had there isn't the creative spirit going on. No, I'm not just talking about signs although it was a visual hotbed at one time.

Makes me no difference, if you guys are happy that works for me.

I cut my teeth in the sign trade with a Shopbot. Sixteen years ago I was a college art teacher and moved into the sign trade because I could see the power of dimensional work. Most of the 3d work was done by hand or through sandblasting. Twelve years ago when I purchased my Shopbot there were few routers on the market for the small shop. At that time if you had a CNC the gate was wide open. Customers were blown away with the idea their company name could be made with raised letters and logo's. And we didn't have HDU or PVC. It was a challenge to find long lasting panel material. None of us had Vectric or Aspire since it hadn't been invented.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27921&stc=1

[Ajcoholic]

...At this time there are few artists compared to years past. What we have now, for the most part are Hobby Guys. Without the artists as we once had there isn't the creative spirit going on. No, I'm not just talking about signs although it was a visual hotbed at one time...


But you make it sound like just "artists" and "creative types" should be posting here to make it interesting.

Remember for a moment, that many people who make cabinets, furniture, other misc. wood items buy and use these machines, and also need assistance from time to time, or just want to share ideas as well.

The artistic carving stuff is but one element of use of a CNC router. I take it you don't cut much plywood or melamine into cabinet case parts, or machine jig and fixture parts, or cutting boards, etc. However, a lot of people make a living doing these things and appreciate having a place specific to this brand of machine - to share ideas, ask questions, and get help when required.

I can appreciate it all - from a simple 2D cut out - to a complex 3D carving. Actually, some of the most valuable info I have gained was how to efficiently cut out flat parts from sheet stock. Not too artistic but somewhat necessary in my field. Maybe I look at things much differently being a general woodworker VS a sign maker. But for me, its all good!

[joe]

Andrew,

Just the opposite is true. There are few artists or creative projects being posted. It takes just as much creative power in building cabinets and furniture as it takes for signs.

Thinking back when I started with the router I don't believe posting a request for help with feeds and speeds or which router bit would be best. The way to learn this stuff is to chuck up a bit and get it done. It seems that everyone is wanting a hand holding. Look I had to make Money. With a family to support and a wife in medical school there wasn't time to screw around asking questions I could solve in short order.

I like to make MONEY. Every project I take on is calculated in that way but you can't let down on the beautiful creative part of the job. When a client suggests they have a project but the budget is low I send them to someone else. It's a failure to ever lower one's price. That will haunt you. It's better to do a job for free and give it away.

[MogulTx]

I started reading here ??? 4-5 years ago??? (gotta look up my own sign up!) EDIT: signed up Oct 2010!

I don't post too much creativity wise.... I bought the CNC to replace a vendor who STUNK at quality and time commitments. He also stunk at reasonable pricing... HOWEVER--- I have done a few creative things with it, and what really thrills me are the personal projects. My son got very interested and stated doing grips for firearms. He is now doing epoxy infusing to reinforce the woods on those grips.... doing a lot of small projects. ( He is teaching me a bit about 3D work!!) And now my daughter - who just graduated college -is getting started with some creative projects and has done a few signs locally. And is working on some new ones. She is a great artist and is becoming a great CNC operator.

We need to probably post a few pics and descriptions to help inspire others.... but we definitely are stretching our bounds and hopefully there are others who are doing something similar out there! (And this forum is STILL the best darn thing I have ever come across in this sort of interest)

Thanks ya'll!

Monty

[Xray]

Seems to me this same topic has come up multiple times before from the same source over the past few years, with the same implied belittlement of certain classes of machine operators.

Tough to know what to say that hasn't been said before, I think there is room enough for all sorts of skill sets, interests, questions, ideas and passions, and this sort of argument/train of thought, whatever it is, is counter productive to all "classes" insofar as they day you stop learning is also the day you stop growing - And we already know there is no one who is ever going to know it all or even close to it.
There is no "1 size fits all" in a brand specific forum like this, not really my place to say "perhaps your needs would be best fit elsewhere", but thats about what it seems like to me.

[kevin]

Joe
Its a good question I think this form has become boring .Its not like oh wow post where did they go .
You are correct sign work is just as demanding and more than most kitchen work .I just used letterhead panel for my first real paying sign job .I'm also using the art work for v-grove panel .Which was a direct result from you also I miss the holy cow how did they do it .Also I have no time for some one learning posting as an expert

I followed Gene work almost from the beginning and see the progression
I think also for everyone who buys a cnc 5 years later who is standing .One need to stay creative to stay in business right now where in a recession because of low oil prices kitchen shops in are area are closing or on the verge if you look at three work its all cookie cutter
I 'm posting a picture I would have no know clue how to do with out your influence thanks Joe .Also for those just starting out read some of the old post
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27928&stc=1

[8Ball]

I'm new here and fairly new to cnc. I didn't buy a cnc to start a big business, I got it for me, because it has interested me for many years.

After getting a cnc, you find out pretty quickly the difficulties of designing and getting the machine to do what you intend it to do.
Being mostly a hobbyist, for now anyway, I would rather spend my money on materials to make projects, rather than ruining bits trying to figure out feeds and speeds just because I can't wait for a response to a question. The seasoned people have most of the answers that can help the new people and guide them, but some don't feel that they should waste their time. I appreciate those that are willing to take time from their schedule to help answer the mundane questions that get asked over and over.

I also like to see what people are capable of doing with a cnc, although, I'm not really astounded, it's a cnc. The impressive part is the design work that it takes to do certain things and the time involved in the design. To think that everyone should be a professional with a successful business creating the next best thing, is a bit discouraging. New people, including myself, won't post pics because we don't qualify as creative. We new people may not make something that impresses the older, more seasoned people, but we are proud of our achievements. EVERYONE started at the beginning.

As far as making signs, they all pretty much look the same. The font, colors, background, logo, image, etc. might change, but the concept is the same. Take the material of choice and cut the afore mentioned items and mount it. Living in a large city, signs are everywhere and they are all the same. Some have fonts that are very difficult to read and I don't even try to figure them out. A sign is a sign, just like a box is a box and there is only so much that can be done to it and it still looks like a box.

[joe]

[ A sign is a sign, just like a box is a box and there is only so much that can be done to it and it still looks like a box.[/QUOTE]

8Ball,

I'm so glad you are on this forum!

Perhaps you would take the time to visit my website and let me know is a "Sign is A Sign." All looking the same. You have no idea what you're talking about!
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[8Ball]

Perhaps you would take the time to visit my website and let me know is a "Sign is A Sign." All looking the same. You have no idea what you're talking about!



I have seen your posts and pics of your signs. Not that they don't look good, but they are no different than the hundreds of signs in my area.
There is nothing that distinguishes your signs from anyone else's. Signs have been made for so long, that they just get copied and repeated. There is nothing new in the sign manufacturing sector. We have 25 or so sign companies within a stone's throw from here. It comes down to price and lead time. They are all capable of making the same signs as the next.

Show us something innovative and persuade my opinion. A sign is what will attract the attention of potential customers to a business and it has one chance to leave an impression.

Now looking at your website, your profiles are repetitive as well as the wood grain texture. Nothing different than the millions of other signs that are seen on other websites, driving down the road, or seen at another manufacturer.

You asked the question and get defensive when you don't like the answers. There just isn't much of anything creative that hasn't been done in the sign world or it would be getting used.

I won't argue the point with you, it's my opinion and will continue to be, however, I will avoid expressing my opinion to your questions in the future.

[joe]

Yow, Right:

Please show us something you think is creative. I'm looking forward to your future posts!

[danhamm]

Hey Joe, doesn't look like the fishings to good here any more, and you don't have a bot so why don't you come back to the 3dsign place where you belong, lotsa new young sign folks asking qestions there.

[kevin]

Dan
I took a peak the from look like its hoping also seeing Dan post is great to see

8 ball would love to see your work please post

[gc3]

Hey Joe, doesn't look like the fishings to good here any more, and you don't have a bot so why don't you come back to the 3dsign place where you belong, lotsa new young sign folks asking qestions there.

Agree Dan...

http://www.3dsignforum.com/forum/19-3d-sign-showcase/11799-delivered-hdu-sign

http://www.3dsignforum.com/forum/1-3d-sign-production/11817-a-simple-step-by-step

8Ball should take a look..."I also like to see what people are capable of doing with a cnc, although, I'm not really astounded, it's a cnc. The impressive part is the design work that it takes to do certain things and the time involved in the design."

Design work...sure that is part of it but toolpath strategy is just as impressive...for us anyway as we produce some very challenging millwork parts with the router.

The info is out there...invest time trying to teach yourself, especially for the "feed-speed" question. Maybe I'm old school but I've always tried to teach myself. Read, read and read more, make mistakes and learn from those mistakes.

Joe is a true master...for those who are professionals we know this. The hobby comments show just how far they have to go to understand...

[Ajcoholic]

Its too bad that a few here seem to really have a thing against new CNC users asking about feed speeds, rpm's and overall cut stratedgies.

In the real world, when it comes to other woodworking cutters (saw blades, shaper cutters etc) the tooling suppliers give you advice on these things. But when you give up control to the CNC router/spindle, and no longer feed by hand or with a manually set power feed, even experienced woodworkers like myself can get some help from others who have been there. Its actually crazy to think the best way to learn is to just go fire things up and take a chance. And that can be quite dangerous. I am all for learning how to do things by gaining experience, but it is good practice to ask for a starting point - one that will at least lead to some success and not put the machine, or operator in a dangerous situation.

I remember when I started, several fellows here were MORE than willing to take the time to help me. I appreciated that a whole lot. And try and reciprocate when I can. Same goes with learning about vacuum hold downs. Or modifying the machine. Or cutting a new material.

I find this forum one of the most laid back, friendly places to go on the internet. It still seems to serve a purpose to a whole lot of people, but unfortunately like everything else in life - not everyone will see it the same way.

I will say it again - the CNC router is used for SO much more than just artistic 3D carving. And some of the most important things are just keeping the machine running well. Getting help when needed, and sharing some of the stuff we do.

Its pretty unfair to fault the forum as a whole, just because it might not suit your exact likes/needs.

[danhamm]

I really don't think anyone is or would fault the Shopbot forum, and I know that wasn't in Joes mind when posting, you have to know Joe to realize what he is attempting, he is a teacher at heart and knows all the tricks and ins and outs of his sign trade, and it "seems" this forum has gone "quiet" on the sign front...for whatever reason and I think he was stirring to get some chat going, that is pretty much "my" opinion but I have only know Joe since he first posted asking if the shopbot he was going to buy was any good, way back in ancient history, I don't think his posts have ever hurt anyone.

[normand]

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27937&stc=1Hello Joe, love your signs

[BrandanS]

Its too bad that a few here seem to really have a thing against new CNC users asking about feed speeds, rpm's and overall cut stratedgies.

In the real world, when it comes to other woodworking cutters (saw blades, shaper cutters etc) the tooling suppliers give you advice on these things. But when you give up control to the CNC router/spindle, and no longer feed by hand or with a manually set power feed, even experienced woodworkers like myself can get some help from others who have been there. Its actually crazy to think the best way to learn is to just go fire things up and take a chance. And that can be quite dangerous. I am all for learning how to do things by gaining experience, but it is good practice to ask for a starting point - one that will at least lead to some success and not put the machine, or operator in a dangerous situation.

I remember when I started, several fellows here were MORE than willing to take the time to help me. I appreciated that a whole lot. And try and reciprocate when I can. Same goes with learning about vacuum hold downs. Or modifying the machine. Or cutting a new material.

I find this forum one of the most laid back, friendly places to go on the internet. It still seems to serve a purpose to a whole lot of people, but unfortunately like everything else in life - not everyone will see it the same way.

I will say it again - the CNC router is used for SO much more than just artistic 3D carving. And some of the most important things are just keeping the machine running well. Getting help when needed, and sharing some of the stuff we do.

Its pretty unfair to fault the forum as a whole, just because it might not suit your exact likes/needs.

I am in full support of what Andrew is saying here. I have also noticed that there are times when Joe's posts can come across brash; certainly not encouraging if you read through replies to his other posts (even on this thread). As Shopbots become more popular, our community will change. This community seems to be incorporating, previously a majority of craftsmen with a new group of production Shopbots. If nothing else, note that these two groups exist. I'm sure the manufacturer doesn't mind. Their intent has ALWAYS been versatility.

I would really love to show off the work we have done with ShopBot, however I am restricted by Non-disclosure agreements with my customers. I am not alone. Also, I have yet to cut any wood on my SB, I have cut 100's of 1000's of various aluminum parts. They aren't a craft, they are production. TBH, not much to show... I am a technical guy, I am here to help on that front. When it comes to the difference between Oak and Walnut, I haven't the foggiest.

That, and as Andrew said, this forums remains one of the best places to hang out and learn. The photos that are posted of other SBotters accomplishments, never fail to impress; I mean never. Our community remains the most friendly I have run into, something which should be lauded, not bashed. However, there is more to machining than success, although I wish it always was ;).

The ShopBot's versatility, will attract a versatile community. Some will have work to show, and some will/can not. We are here as a support group. There is far more to Shopbotting and its Users than photos.

[steve_g]

Normand… Sculpteur.ca
I love your web site, and I can’t read a word of it! Is there an “English” tab I’m missing?
Please start a new thread and tell us if and how you’re integrating the ShopBot into your art!
SG

[bleeth]

Hey Steve:
Open in Google (chrome) and hit translate. (or add google toolbar to IE-very helpful in many ways).
Many Quebecois have no need of English websites.

On the subject of "artistic" and/or "creative" work: Most truly artistic work is hard to sell to the average client. Like it or not, it is the truth. In the most common market it is our job as creators to figure out how to render our clients dreams into a practical reality without charging as if it were a Renoir. That being said, I still see much creative work on this site and work that may not be so highly creative but is obviously sweated over to get a fine technically crafted output (otherwise known as good artisan work), as well as the basic and not so basic operational questions. It works for me.

And anyone who thinks a well made cabinet is "just a box" is welcome to say that to my face and start running.

[kevin]

I think this turning into are you for Joe or against

I saw a documentary on the eagle and Joe Walsh was saying that Don Felder push him to be a better guitarist each night they would push each other .They both ended up being amazing musicians

The same thing in cabinet making and sign work you need to get out of your comfort if all work look the same stale Your pay will reflect that's the reality .I'm blessed that Joe has taken the time to show me new thing .I like to think from time to time I can show him a cord or two .I know Joe is not warm and fuzz the way he answers but he'll tell you the truth
Also I worked in aircraft interiors had a none disclosure agreement but still made thing on my time .I just finished a yacht made sure I was allowed to take pictures I wrote in my quote .

[wcsg]

I'm new here and fairly new to cnc. I didn't buy a cnc to start a big business, I got it for me, because it has interested me for many years.

After getting a cnc, you find out pretty quickly the difficulties of designing and getting the machine to do what you intend it to do.
Being mostly a hobbyist, for now anyway, I would rather spend my money on materials to make projects, rather than ruining bits trying to figure out feeds and speeds just because I can't wait for a response to a question. The seasoned people have most of the answers that can help the new people and guide them, but some don't feel that they should waste their time. I appreciate those that are willing to take time from their schedule to help answer the mundane questions that get asked over and over.

I also like to see what people are capable of doing with a cnc, although, I'm not really astounded, it's a cnc. The impressive part is the design work that it takes to do certain things and the time involved in the design. To think that everyone should be a professional with a successful business creating the next best thing, is a bit discouraging. New people, including myself, won't post pics because we don't qualify as creative. We new people may not make something that impresses the older, more seasoned people, but we are proud of our achievements. EVERYONE started at the beginning.

As far as making signs, they all pretty much look the same. The font, colors, background, logo, image, etc. might change, but the concept is the same. Take the material of choice and cut the afore mentioned items and mount it. Living in a large city, signs are everywhere and they are all the same. Some have fonts that are very difficult to read and I don't even try to figure them out. A sign is a sign, just like a box is a box and there is only so much that can be done to it and it still looks like a box.



It's funny......8Ball has a very, VERY valid point and he's being knocked around by Joe for it.....what's new?

What makes this funny is.....that's his perception of what he see's when he see's a catalog of signs. Sure, we see signs as sign makers as something different, the precise carving, gold leaf, the physical makeup of the individual components cheap or premium all the way to the paint...even how it was installed, but I bet he looks at it more so from the consumer side and as a hobbyist. He's just telling us all what HE see's....what a consumer see's and what we see are two different world's and I for one appreciate his perspective it doesn't offend me one bit. It does tell me that maybe sometimes depending on the client we might be putting too much into it. We all have some clients that want art and something different and some just want a "sign" from us.

What should we do, grab 8Ball by the shoulders and shake him while we tell him THIS is REAL ART!!!!

Back to the topic now.

My feeling is, a lot don't post because Joe is a kind of a forum killer.

Not that I care two bits about Joe's opinion, especially when it comes to electric signs where he's out of his element and honestly he boasts and offers bad advice when he does chime in on my threads that I started and I have to chuckle at the diarrhea that spews from his mouth . Yeah....he's good at design, crafting non-illuminated and hand carving stuff I'll give him that, pat him on the back and say "atta boy". But Joe does have a very bad attitude that mixes with his craftsmanship flip-side (B side of Joe) and that is he projects himself as one of our "betters", he even projects/extends himself beyond his means with incorrect advice.

Even at the 3D forum I see him doing what he does here.



In closing, when I see a topic started by Joe, I don't even click on it. But since I saw 3 pages attached to this....curiosity got the better of me and I knew others shared the same opinion.


Anyway...... :D

[normand]

Thank Steve G . No English tab ,like Bleeth said here in Québec it is not needed ,many people dont speak English . And not that many people speak CNC . Most think it is for big company .
I mostly use my sb to do 3d . This relief started with a model I made in sign foam ,then I scan it with David 3d scanner . Then I reproduce it on my sb. over 5ftX8. Most of the hand work after the machining was done with regular exacto knife.


A carving or a cabinet or a sign is like a face . They are all alike, 2 eyes a nose a mouth . But some are a lot more attractive than other. Since I am a carpenter by trade I dont have to please Customer and I can do what i like ,but the money is not there .
There may be a new avenue for my work ,now I can sell the 3D model on turbosquid or other.
I realy enjoy all the different work that is posted on the forum .

[chunkstyle]

I've never found Joe's comments to be unconstructive. Critical yes, but not unconstructive. Personally, I like being challenged over my ideas. It's not uncommon practice in a serious art and design curriculum. A critique of your work by your peers is common and I enjoy having the honesty laid on me. 'You have to be strong enough to kill your babies' was one of the best bits of advice that I've received from a titan in the commercial arts.
Joe's opinions are honest, even tho it might be uncomfortable to hear, and I always welcome his advice and critique.

[chunkstyle]

Here's a weird one we did awhile ago that was out of the ordinary for us. In this project, the assembly jigs that were made on the shopbot were as important as the milling of the chery wood itself to create the bar rail.
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27955&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27956&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27957&stc=1

[bleeth]

Beautiful Rail-Getting those really smooth and fair curved is not easily done.
You're right that the joining jigs for a piece like that, like the horizontal frames for curved desks are a great improvement with the bot over the old way.

I've been known to get a little biting at times myself. Hopefully the one on the receiving end gets that it is typically a result of my thinking that they should have thought out or researched their own answer. Yet we all have our "Doh" moments. I've been puzzling over how to do a drop down door that is 45" high in a cabinet for quite a while that when it is down will be able to support an ironing board without flexing or breaking the hinge system for a while. Suddenly hit me how to do it very simply this morning with no side drop hardware to get in the way (all of which manufactured isn't rated strong enough for the load anyway) or supporting chain. I could have asked on a forum but I really wanted to come up with my own answer. Glad I did.
But let's face it-there are a lot of people out there who don't appreciate what it takes to do good craft work and there are more people on the forum who are asking questions that they clearly haven't researched first.
The same computers and instant communication that has enabled us to do so much more efficiently have also led to more dumbing down of our population and raised expectations of getting answers to any question that occurs with little or no personal effort. In Florida right now they are discussing eliminating basic Algebra from the required HS graduation requirements. I'll admit it was not my finest subject but to this day I appreciate being able to put together basic formulas. Calculator, computer, or not you still have to know what to enter. I would imagine once 8ball actually gets into working with one he'll learn to appreciate the work more. If not it will sit around unused till sold!

[chunkstyle]

Thanks for the compliment Bleeth. That project was fun because of how smooth it can go when all the trades can communicate easily. In this case, templates were cut for anyone that asked (I usually use luan or whatever cover stock I have lying around and don't want anymore). DXF's got sent to the stone people and light people could figure out where there lights had to fall just by stitching a template down to the floor for them.
Yeah, I generally agree with the sentiment of doing your own bit of effort to search for an answer that may have been asked a million times already.
It's really weird when you search for an answer for something that you forgot you asked already and find your original posted question. Almost embarresing because I couldn't remember the answer I'd gotten in the first place.

[joe]

Thanks Tim and Normand for showing us some excellent work.
The website www.suclpteur.ca (http://www.suclpteur.ca/) is also a treat. You've got all the right stuff. Hope you will post more often. We need fellows like you.






A forum like this isn't the place to post personal attacks. Not only is it juvenile and immature there is little benefit to the general reader. Everyone is looking for skills and methods. That's what we need. Shopbot could end an otherwise good thread like this

About newbees and the hobby class:
Fellows like me who are running a full fledged business don't have the time or interest to answer all those little mundane questions. So be my guest.
What I'm interested in doing is assist with craftsmanship. For those with talent and drive I'd like to assist. None of us will ever get beyond the mystery of Layout and Design. It's a life long challenge. To the Hobby Minded, Have fun.

Precision craftsmanship only comes with a dedication. http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27960&stc=1

[Ajcoholic]

A forum like this isn't the place to post personal attacks.

About newbees and the hobby class:

Fellows like me who are running a full fledged business don't have the time or interest to answer all those little mundane questions. So be my guest.


I agree. Discussion is great - even when parties dont agree. Heated discussion can still remain civil. :)

As for your other comment, I have to say - my father (who is an old world master craftsman, a life long woodworker, business man and artist) has always taught me since I was young, to pass along knowledge and help others.

Id have to say, I am also running a full time business, lol. I just spent about $600,000 in the past 5 years setting up a new woodworking shop, been working at this trade full time for 21+ years now, and work my butt off every day trying to fulfill my customers orders. CNC is but a small part of my business, but I so much enjoy coming here when I have a bit of time in the evening after the kids are in bed. It is very satisfying to me to help anyone, who needs it, if I can. And like I said I certainly asked for my fair share of it as well, and I would have been pretty insulted if I got a response telling me to buzz off and go figure it out for myself... Whether it be a simple question or a complex one. I have never thought of myself as being "too professional" to help anyone - hobbiest or not. If that's your thing, so be it. But, the way that comes across can certainly put people off I'd say.

Everyone starts at the beginning. "newbies" use the forum to get to be "non newbies". Its a shame that you are basically saying they shouldnt be bothering the pros... :(

[Brian Harnett]

Quite a few on this board are accomplished businessmen or women that share info. Looking down on a lack of knowledge or assuming a question is stupid is simple, just don't reply, no need to belittle or infer anything.

I love to share and hopefully inspire someone once in awhile. Another board I belong to I put up a tutorial on how to machine and heat treat a chainsaw carving bar because the only manufacturer making that type went out of business it inspired at least one other carver to make one, I consider that a success.

Creativity takes many forms figuring out a setup to speed up production is creative, not everyone that buys a bot wants to be creative for some its a tool to get a job done, nothing wrong with that.

Lead by example flood the board with creative work and leave the ego at the door.

[joe]

Brian, You're a genius!

Andrew, I'm sure everyone would enjoy a thread or two showing some techniques used at your business.

You guys could lead the way.

[JimDav]

Brian, You're a genius!

Andrew, I'm sure everyone would enjoy a thread or two showing some techniques used at your business.

You guys could lead the way.
Andrew DOES do that and not in condescendly but very helpful and encouraging ways including sharing files and pictures.

[Xray]

Precision craftsmanship only comes with a dedication. http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27960&stc=1

I'm guessing you could have come up with a better example of jaw dropping, precision craftsmanship to inspire us pesky, driveless peons - That looks like a hot mess if you ask me.

[chunkstyle]

Joe,

Are those letters cut from sign foam? It looks like you are gilding the tops of the letters after painting the fonts? Possibly painted with the MM gold paint technique you shared with us on another post? Most leafing suppliers are telling me to go with a yellow painted undercoat before applying leaf.
I'm trying to get a customer to cough up for a bit of gold leafing (will be my first time) and it will involve a prismatic cut 'C' thats all flourishy. I'm trying to decide wether to cut it out of PVC (gets kinda grainy below the material face which may not be a bad thing for leafing) or Extira. Extira would be a bit smoother.

[normand]

Thank you Joe for the good words . I should try to post some more .
I see that railing as a piece of art ,sure add a fancy touch .
Brian I would like to see that carving chainsaw bar tutorial if possible . Might inspire me to get out my old chainsaw to carve with.

p.s. Joe, dont worry even my bank misspeled ''sculpteur'' on a box of cheque .They had to reprint it. Dont do that on a sign;)

[Brian Harnett]

Normand Here is a link to my post unless you are going to carve a lot buying a cannon carving bar would make more sense.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/118564/message/1438871870/Making+a+carving+bar


The bar I made is one piece of A2 steel unlike other carving bars that are made that just have the tip faced. The entire bar after heat treating is extremely durable, they were 3 times the price of a cannon bar but last 6 times longer. Unfortunately most chainsaw carvers did not do the math and the manufacturer did not sell enough to be worth it.


http://i.imgur.com/UE7WVPJ.jpg

[joe]

Tim,

Glad to see you moving into gilding.

About the underlayment, I'd suggest using artists acrylic colors. Liquitex, Rembrandt or Dana are usually available. Get tubes of Cadium Yellow Medium and Cadium Yellow Dark. The combination of the two will give a good gold base.

PVC is a bit too difficult to sand if you're doing prism letters. But if your texturing, like the one I posted, it will work fine, otherwise HDU is a better option. I like to apply my texture medium with a chip brush using a stipple motion.

Gold comes in either Patent and Glass. You'll find the "Free Gold' known as glass gold is much easier to apply on dimensional work. That's because it will drapes over the letter. Patent needs to be applied directly and works well on flat surfaces. The Glass Gold is picked up a Gilders Tip, See Photo,And laid down over the letter. This process goes quickly and is amazing easy.

Gold Size:
There are several manufacturers of size. I've not found much difference in them but you should start with the "Slow" version. That will give you plenty of time to get the perfect tack. You want it to be almost dry. That will take several hours but the dryer it is the more the gold will flash. Too wet and it will look dull. So you make several test stripes over a couple of hours. Once you are satisfied there is plenty of time to finish the gilding. I like to lay down the size in the evening so the next morning it's about ready.

A couple of reasons I like using gold is it lasts forever. Unlike paint or any other topcoats it will flash a look nice for years. I often have clients asking for "some of that gold paint" be used on their letters. Once you get it out in the community you'll be amazed at how it raises the quality of a sign.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27975&stc=1

Gilding is a mystery technique that keeps the less talented confused an at bay.

[joe]

Here's a small video I found on YouTube showing the use of the Gilders tip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBFDIES21cI

Let me also say texture isn't always beneficial. The photo below was made with HDU.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27976&stc=1

[normand]

Thank you Brian for the link .Last time I chain saw carve was 25 years ago when I lived on the west coast . There was no carving bar at least I did not know of. You are right for the occasional use I should get a cannon bar . Your web site and all the link are so inspiring ,make me want to do some again . I Watch many Carver King épisodes , what a treat

[chunkstyle]

Joe,
Many thanks for the gilding advice. Especially the 'free gold' tip for a beginner such as myself. I have a 1/2 sheet of 15lb. HDU leftover from a project awhile ago. Perhaps I could use that on the prismatic fonts to be gilded.
Looking forward to the lunchtime video.
I was driving thru the city over the weekend. On a busy street that had a lot of small business in older houses converted to commercial offices. Dibond vinyl sign here, suitcase sign there, etc.. We all know this kind of street.
It was the gold signs that stood out from the noise of all the others. Nothing draws the eye like gold. I really want to move into this area. Now to get a customer to pay for it.

[joe]

Tim,

You'll need samples to show the effects. The advantage in making samples is the skill you will acquire. For years I made a couple of samples each week.

Another way to get the skill level up is to attend a workshop. There's nothing wrong in inviting a few guys over on the weekend to explore techniques. That's the way the Letterhead Movement got started.

Even if a person involved in signs, it's still a good idea to have a few fellows over to discuss materials and techniques.

[Burkhardt]

Joe,
Many thanks for the gilding advice........

Maybe you can get some more advice from the Chinese...

http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-988190-galleryV9-ilfx-988190.jpg

I am not sure if gilding mummies will be big business in the US though :)

More pics here of gilding a revered monk (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/china-mumie-von-buddhistischem-moench-wird-vergoldet-fotostrecke-136832.html).
Sorry this is with German captions.

[joe]

GB,

Thanks for this posting.

The brilliance here is done with Water Gilding. The technique is, free gold is floated over a water size as opposed to a oil based size. It's for interior use only. Most commonly used on furniture and picture frames. For those interested in this process, water is misted or painted on a Bole, or clay base which has a dry hide glue surface. Water gilding is very popular with glass artists also. Dave Smith video's on Youtube are fun to watch.

I've never been successful at selling gold on my signs although it's a common practice to use it. Odd as it may sound the inclusion of gold isn't that expensive or time consuming. $100 dollars of gold goes a long ways on signs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0fOieadP7w