What would you do?

[joe]

The phone call seemed promising, An old law firm wanted to update their existing ground sign so I made the appointment. As I drove up, seeing their sign, all sorts of questions, came to mind. My first thought was "This is going to be a slam dunk". Knowing they had visited my website I was sure they be expecting something a little more professional.

The conversation went like this. "Our sign is falling down and we need a little help getting it refurbished" They were also aware the letters were coming apart, falling off, and knew they needed replating.

The sign sets on a beautiful plot of land. The offices are in a gorgeous drop-dead turn of the century, well maintained home. They are an old conservative Jewish law firm and I some difficulty figuring out the perimeters of my proposal.

As I left there were plenty of questions on my mind. I had the feeling they were looking for a maintenance job. It's become clear there are lots of people who have no appreciation for art. It's not their fault they are visually "Tone Deaf" but as a commercial sign person one has to be aware of it. Few clients can envision the completed project and that's what keeps us busy but there those who have little appreciation for a beautiful sign as opposed to one that will serve their business. For example I see lots of signs going up today that aren't even readable due to, a poor choice of letter style and contrast.

Here's the question. Is it worth the time to consider a proposal? You know they're going to want some kind of art work without any obligation.


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[RossMosh]

Fixing up that sign is a job for someone desperate for work or a shop that likes to crank out work. As far as I can tell, that's not you.

I'd call them up and say something along the lines of you were very impressed by their facilities but their sign doesn't match the image you believe they want to put forward. Tell them you'd be very interested in making a new sign for them. Offer the "standard" three tier pricing with examples from your portfolio so they can match a price to an image.

My personal opinion is they had a sign made 20 years ago. They have a nice business and make good money and have seen no reason to replace it. Now that it's falling apart, they're first inclination was to repair it and your job is to advise them the best you can. Based on your post, I wouldn't start doing layouts and design work without a deposit. There is no telling where this job will go and without some sort of committment from them, why waste more time?

One other thing, I use google maps to scout locations before I get a deposit. It saves a lot of time and gives you an idea where you stand before you get there.

[bleeth]

Based on what you said in your post I think your assumptions could be way off.
It's also looks like this was originally done by an amateur sign guy or likely the contractors carpenter.
The question is what do they mean by "refurbished".
As is but cleaned up and refastened or a whole new design in the fields?
All jobs aren't great art. They could be perfectly satisfied with a pair of new posts properly installed and another 2x4 framed piece of MDO with letters on it.
Of course we know you would lay it out with proper sizing and kerning, but it could be just a simple Gemini Letter job. I know there are times you suggest another company that is not nearly as artistic as you and this could easily be one of those as well.
With that info it should be easy to decide.
Looks like the store bought original posts are shot at the base. I'm sure you saw if this is so when you looked at it. I would have told them right off they really need a new sign, ballpark them from a basic post and field sign to a drop dead one and listened to them respond with a budget.
Lawyers and Doctors, regardless of their religious beliefs are a pain in the ass. My personal percentage of closing deals with them direct is much lower than other professions. Only rarely do they really know up front the wide range that cabinets can cost. But I've done tons of work at realistic prices for them when I'm working through a general contractor that was selected through standard commercial bid practices.

Let them know that a really nice sign might make their clients miss the storage tanks across the street that look like s__t.
Or just show them this and tell them that's the quality they really want!


http://www.normansignco.com/images/DanielDavis.jpg

[joe]

Ross

Yep, you're correct.

I'd have pulled away from the start but the Victorian House was like fairy land quality. Also I really like the folks. They were every so cordial and pleasant.

I love this business and if I was a hobby guy this would be right my alley. Even if the client wouldn't know what he got, it would still be fun.

[joe]

Dave,

I'm sure they know it's going to be a whole new sign and their suggestion to "Upgrade it a little, Nothing too fancy" was a way of saying we don't want to spend much money. In this case my website failed me. Most of the time, when a customer calls letting me know they've seen the website, that lets me know they will be spending some money. I'd assumed from the start this was the case.

Like you suggest anyone with a gemini catalog could make them happy.

[bleeth]

"Upgrade it a little, Nothing too fancy" was a way of saying we don't want to spend much money.
That's what it sounds like to me too. Hope you had a nice drive anyway!


Time to get home and channel hop between the Heat game and the Derby.:o

[joe]

Dave,

Did you notice the "S" in lawyers is upside down?

[bleeth]

Nope. I knew something was wrong with the way the whole word looked but marked it up to bad kerning.
But of course, you are right.

[barrowj]

Guys, I'm not a sign guy and not a great artistic person but please, tell me why you say the "S" is upside down? I'm sure it has to do with "Fine detail" or something that I am totally missing, it looks like an S to me.

Joe

[bleeth]

If you look closely the space inside the curve at the top is larger than the bottom.
That is wrong. The shadows make it hard to tell but Joe's highly trained eye probably picked up on it right away.
Type a large S in Times New Roman and you can see the difference clearly.

[barrowj]

Kinda thought that was the case but until I typed it in Word and increased the font size to 72 it was had to spot to the untrained eye. Thanks for pointing it out Dave, much appreciated.

[joe]

Joe,

It's a fair question and deserves a little explanation.
Sign artists, cutting vinyl, are home free from placing letters backwards and upside down but when cutting letters from panel material extra care that needs to be taken.
Below, I've set a few letters which can be placed incorrectly. Lettering artists know the down stroke is always wider. That's because the brush always spreads when going south and narrows during the up-stroke. Letters which can be a little more tricky are those like the H & S. Some letter styles have the crossbar on the H a little higher or lower. I'm sure there are lots of other examples not listed.

It was painful, for me, to see the Catholic School sign with the N upside down. If this was any other kind of business it wouldn't be as embarrassing. Schools shouldn't have letters backwards or upside down. Just my opinion.

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[cowboy1296]

oohhhhh I am not a sign guy at all and do basic stuff. But start from scratch and work your usual magic on them. If they are lawyers they can afford you but then you could always trade out if you need any legal work done.

[joe]

Cowboy,

Trade-outs are a topic all their own. I've tried it a few times and not against it but found it best to trade for a physical object. Well there again I traded for some dental work. That worked out fine. Probably should post a query about good and bad barter experiences.

The kind of businesses I enjoy making signs for are Lawyers, Dentists, Churches, Farms and Ranches, and government offices. I've failed miserably with churches. But still they have such a classic background and look that it causes me to keep trying. Most of the time they want free art to show their council. They've gotta have something to get the approval. Once they have that, someone has a brother, cousin, or friend with a router that can do the work for less. The shortest way around the problem is to show them photo's of work done and give them a cost up front.

[MogulTx]

I imagine those lawyers looked at your site and figured that you would steer them to a more expensive, new sign. I imagine they were pre-selling you on a lowered expectation so that you would be sure to give them a good proposal at a good price- believing they were a budget conscious customer. And they WILL be... but probably not nearly as budget conscious as they have led you to believe. I think I would use Dave Bleeth' s example and a number of sign examples that you surely have in your files.... and give them the Low to High sample and rough price and ask them what they think will actually serve them for the next 15-20 years or so.... I would point out that you will be certain to not place their "S" upside down, so that the error does not reflect badly on THEIR skill and intellect- and that they will be glad for the investment that they make when they see what it does to better represent their business interests....

[joe]

Good advice. What would you do about the Catholic School sign? That's going to be expensive.

[BrandanS]

Time to get home and channel hop between the Heat game and the Derby.:o

Go Raptors ;) :p

[waynelocke]

The original question reminds me of a cabinetmaker friend of mine a number of years ago. After submitting a bid for some bookcases to a lawyer he could immediately tell that he was not going to get the job. When the lawyer asked why they were so expensive my friend replied, " I'm very good and if I wanted a lawyer I would expect to pay Racehorse Haynes much more than I would pay you." Maybe not the best strategy but I think that he carried it to his grave as a proud moment.