What Are Some Ideas For Lit Sign With Cut Out Letters For Indoor Store At A Mall?

[rb99]

I have an older upgraded SB and large format printing + laminating equipment. I have a customer asking me for a sign to go on the bulkhead over the store inside a mall. He has requested cut out letters, and lighting as an option. I have made quite a few electric signs in the past, but I am out of touch with newer methods and materials. I did take a 1 day course in LED technology.

I would appreciate any ideas or samples of what I might be able to design and build for this client. It will be in the 3'-4' high x 10'-12' long size range. It has a detailed patterned background, and 11 letters. He says he may move locations at some point so the sign needs to be moveable.

Thanks! I am open to any ideas and suggestions.

[bleeth]

When it comes to portability it seems you have two options.
Build a typical aluminum light box and do push-through letters in an acrylic panel with your pattern printed on vinyl with back lighting.
Build a solid panel to be hung on french cleats and mount pin set channel letters with LED lighting in them.
For the panel make sure you can route the required transformer somewhere, like recessing the receptacle box in a niche big enough for it also.
For LED's the box interior is typically white as opposed to the aluminum reflective used for fluorescent.
It is easy to get "plug and play" LED's today. Stick to the higher quality from established dealers and stay away from the e-bay crud.


All mall signs I have done required permitting.

[jerry_stanek]

You could print a panel and then add letters on stand offs with leds behind

[rb99]

It doesn't have to be portable, just removable and re-installable...

To make it totally portable will make it too costly I think. The wiring and transformers will
have to go into the wall...

Thanks

[Alex Naumenko]

Channel letters are movable just save your template pattern file. If future location would be inside of the mall too you can get away with sticking led's on the the back of the 1" pvc. I future location outside I would recommend to make channel letters.
Let me know if you need help. I will walk you thru on how to make channel letters.

[rb99]

Thanks. I have made channel letters in the past, but if you have some tips that would be great!

I think the LEDs to PVC is what I am looking at.

[joe]

This is easy peasy work.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28177&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28178&stc=1

[rb99]

This is easy peasy work.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28177&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28178&stc=1

Wow that's really nice!

Are you able to elaborate on the leds? The stand-offs?

Do you have any other examples?

Thanks

[joe]

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28182&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28183&stc=1

[Alex Naumenko]

28186
This one is made out of 3" HDU. Same as welded aluminum it has channel routed in it and capped with clear lexan.
I don't like sticking leds on the back of the substrate because it will create hot spots.

[joe]

Alex,

I like your Copper Penny sign. The Logo is excellent but I'm confused with your description. Since the face is Lexan and the letters are hollowed out what are you using for illumination? HDU doesn't have much strength for sidewalls less than .35"

Please tell us how you achieve illumination and how easy is this to move to another location?

[rb99]

Thanks for the inspirational pictures! I have some technical questions I hope you guys will help me with. If they are too much to ask I apologize for that...

I am wondering if the sign is indoors, do I need to use the outdoor PVC sheeting? Will the cheaper indoor PVC take the heat from the LEDs?

If I want to make the surface of the letters say mirrored gold vinyl, can I apply the vinyl to the sheet before cutting and then cut the letters out and cut the gold vinyl at the same time or do I have to try to apply the vinyl after and hand trim it?

What is the distance or space the letters need to stand off the background to get good lighting?

What type of LEDs work best for this type of indoor sign? I have been recommended some mini LEDs, but the supplier really had no experience.

How do I estimate the amount of lighting required? Is there a quick way?

Standoffs... I see Joe you are making your own but it appears you screw through the front of the face. Are there any techniques that will allow the standoffs to be fastened from the back without drilling the viewing surface of the face? I would think it would be good to be able to remove the letters for maintenance down the road. I have found some pre-made plastic standoffs that allow for this, but they are not easy for me to get up here in Canada.

Thanks again

[jerry_stanek]

As for the standoffs we use scrape pvc to make blocks that we glue to the back of the letters. LEDs give off very little heat so we use the self adhesive LEDs and stick them to the back of the letters. In doors we just use Sintra. Komatex or what ever is easy to get. I do cut some with the vinyl on but I mirror the letters and cut from the back with a up cut 1/8 bit. You can try a few different size standoffs and LEDs to to get the effect you want

[joe]

I agree with Jerry all the way.

What he's looking for is a formula and there isn't one. For example there are lots of ways to make stand-offs and the distance depends on the size of letter and number of LED's. For example a 5" letter may need .50 relief while a 2' letter may need 1". The size and stroke of letter will call out for more or less light units. The way I started out was making a model. You gotta get to work and let us know what you come up with.

[Alex Naumenko]

Copper Penny made out of 18lb duna board. It is 2" stroke on those letters and return is .625 thick and capped with lexan. Lexan is screws to hdu from a back. If needs servicing you can pull the whole sign from the wall.
I am using p-led. Most of the suppliers will make led layout chart for free.
Standoffs are aluminum threaded rod with pvc tube spacer usually 1 1/2" - 2" for crisp halo effect they attached to a lexan with a rivnut insert.
That was last hdu lit sign we did before switching to aluminum cans.

[joe]

Alex is correct with regard to hotspots. Were not talking about heat. It's the variation in illumination. Unlike channel letters this techniques will always have variable illumination. That can be a sales point as you get illumination from the sides. It's just a different look offering another technique. I'm looking at using it on ground signs where a channel letter would need to be deep but the customer requires illumination.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28189&stc=1 http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28188&stc=1

[rb99]

The clear Lexan? under the letters looks great. Are the edges beveled?

What is p-led?

Are there brands or types of PVC that cut and carve better than others?

[rb99]

Is this the correct p-led?

http://www.p-led.com/index.php

If so which ones do you use?

[Alex Naumenko]

Is this the correct p-led?

http://www.p-led.com/index.php

If so which ones do you use?

Yes I was using fusion 2.

[wcsg]

I Have throw in my own hat into the ring

Our NC LED
http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7353-bright-long-lasting-channel-letters-and-what-it-takes/

Unlike Principal NC's are made in Korea NOT China!!! Korean products have a very high standard for quality, think Japan!

Ours are Constant Current NOT Constant Voltage (5% light degradation in 15,000 hours of operation), CC LED's last longer because each module is regulated unlike CV LED's which are not and live shorter life spans.

Differences between CC and CV LED's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mABYR7dz6hQ

NC's are also Samsung.

The Sign Syndicate has tested just about every mainstream LED since 2008 and has logged in over 40k hours of data on Light source power consumption, ROI, an light degradation or Lumen Maintenance. In my experience I would only use about 5% on what's available to the market, anything from China NOT being one of them.


Some Suggestions for your sign.

For Longevity of an LED module mount, to a metal surface. If you're doing PVC letters then area clear/pocket then route small aluminum boards and adhere to the back pocket area then mount your LED's there. If possible use reverse channel letters and aim towards the letter back and use reflection, as you've seen in some examples the hot potting, which looks terrible. Or distance from surface is your friend, 2+". Make sure your surface is flat in sheen not semi or eggshell, this also helps in cutting those hot spots. If possible then do Neon, it's 360˙ not pinpoint and you'll get no hot spots just even lighting. Everyone appreciates even halo lighting not pinpoint visible hotspots
whatever you do, remember heat is an LED's worst enemy, enclosing, potting, not thermal/convection cooling will rapidly degrade the module. This is why metal surface is better than mounting to plastic of polycarb.

For this very project we have an awesome diffused lens which helps greatly with shallow lighting projects
http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7563-new-wide-angle-nc-led/


Good Luck!

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/adverts/Frontpage/Kgirl%20Box%20NC%20Compare%202.jpg

[joe]

Do what Erik suggests. He can guide you in from here.