Unresolved Buddy Problems

[kfitz]

Yesterday, Mike Harvey let me come over and work on a couple projects on the Buddy he bought back in December. His machine has never worked right, and is still not working right. Shown below is what Buddy does with circles. The Z is messed up too. None of the three axis move smoothly when running a part file. When moving under keyboard control, jittering and roughness are very apparent. When jogging under keyboard control in both X and Y, when it reaches a certain "threshold" speed, it slams to a halt, but the motors keep pulsing and moving it roughly along. When running z zero, you can easily see the z slip (as in missing or jumping multiple steps) as it is moving down. Also, I have renamed the z zero routine the "z shatter" routine, since it drives thin bits into the zero plate with enough force to shatter them before it stops and moves back up. This happened to me yesterday with a 1/16" bit, and I had the zero plate clamped to the chuck. Mike's z zero plate looks like it was carpet bombed by B-52's. I have encouraged Mike to video the problems and post a link here.

I feel bad because before Mike bought the machine, I told him how great the ShopBot is. When he hit some rough spots in the ordering process, and shipment of his machine was repeatedly delayed, and he thought about canceling his order, I encouraged him to hang in there, that it would all be worth it. The only thing this has been is a nightmare. If I were Mike I would wish I had never bought the machine. Sorry to vent, but this is very frustrating. At one time I could not speak too highly of ShopBot's technical support. Sadly, it appears that something has changed there.



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[bill1]

hello Kevin,
I hope they are not all like this I have a bench top now and very well satisfied and was going to place my order tomorrow for ShopBot Buddy and put my bench top up for sale but I think I will wait and see how this plays out.
Bill.

[kfitz]

Honestly Bill, I would hold off. I will probably get kicked off the forum for these posts. Mike is being too kind I think. If it were me, I would request that ShopBot either pickup the machine and get it working correctly before returning it, or I would request a new machine, or I would ask that they send someone to get it working.

My previously excellent experiences were with a PRT96 machine that my employer bought in Jan 2003. Even though I assembled it from pieces, I was up and running within about 48 hours, and never had problems like this. Here, the gentleman receives a PRE-ASSEMBLED and (we had assumed) tested and ready to run machine. Three months later, it still can't even make a simple circle. The documentation was absolutely worthless too, but I won't even go there.

[chiloquinruss]

Kevin - I have a question for you. I've looked through all the "Troubleshooting" posts relating to a "Buddy" and I see no posts relating to this kind of problem or any post relating to a Mike Harvey. Has not the Shopbot technical support staff been in contact with him in regards to this machine? I see nothing posted here, just curious. Russ

[kfitz]

Russ,

Mike and I have both posted on his problems with this machine before. They may not be in the troubleshooting section. It is disturbing to think they may have been deleted. Mike and I have spent our fair share of time on the phone with tech support.

-Kevin

[bearcat]

Is this a standard or an Alpha? It reads as if the machine is binding while moving - check by removing the motors and moving each axis by hand. Another source of binding could be the gear rack to v-rail distance - check the parallelism with a caliper by measuring across the gear face to the opposite v-rail along the length of the axis.

Ed

[steve4460]

Kevin
Is the Firmware loaded on the buddy.
Email me the specs of the machine and a number to call , and I will see what I can help you figure out on this .

Bot on

[Brady Watson]

Looking back at some of the posts about this in the past (via Google search of this board) - It seems that Mike got a 7.2:1 non-standard motor upgrade on his Buddy & there was some confusion regarding unit values. There is another post about his control box overheating, which can happen depending on climate or if there is inadequate airflow to the box. It appears that these particular issues have been resolved.

The stuttering you speak about when moving the tool is 100% attributed to the computer running the tool. It should be XP PRO (not XP Home or any other) with no virus software, quicktime or anything else running in the background. Many people think that their computers are tip-top when in fact, a quick glance at the task manager shows what processes are competing with SB3. What were the results of the communication test? What was the efficiency rating? Aside from competing programs, you need to have a good USB interface. I have found Dell to be the worst, requiring a 2.0 card & hub to prevent issues when using a USB keyboard & mouse. FYI - low speed resonance can be tuned out by turning the white screw on each Gecko drive.

In reference to the pics above, are the v-roller bearings on the Y car correctly adjusted? I have seen many PRS tools that were loose. Are ALL of the gear racks greased or are they dry? If they are dry, the pinions are cooked - and your edge quality. What version of SB3 are you running? If the Zzero plate looks hammered it is because you are not getting continuity between the plate and the router. The Z clip is there to compensate for standard routers (with worn brushes) to complete the circuit. There are only 2 wires for the Zzero. It either works or doesn't.

I think there are certain allowances that need to be made when a new user buys his 1st CNC. You can't very well blame SB because your friend (the operator) hammered the Zzero plate by not using the provided clip - just like I couldn't blame SB for putting the collet in my spindle without 'clicking it' into the nut the 1st week I had the machine. I've gone out to help other SB'ers with similar problems to find that they had their wiring configured like a spaghetti nightmare or the machine wasn't greased, or their computer was sub standard...There are a lot of factors that can cause the issues you point out & not all of them are easy to diagnose over the phone...

Question: Why isn't Mike posting this?

-B

[harold_weber]

If you cannot get the machine to move smoothly (except at very low speeds) in the Keypad mode (press K, then use the arrow or the / and \ keys), then I'd suspect your computer (communication speed problem).

Not too long ago, Wes Mason got ShopBot to take back his new machine because of similar problems and then discovered that the cause was his computer. http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/26/23998.html?1189615424#POST56465

It certainly would not be that difficult to swap to another computer and try it.

[harold_weber]

Mike, if you cannot post a video of the machine's irregular movements, maybe you could post a sound (.wav) file of the sound its making? This might help Brady or someone at ShopBot pin down the problem.

[thecustomsignshop]

Along with communication speeds...

Have you verified all grounds? Is the computer on the same circuit as the machine/router? Is the power clean? I would also verify the wiring again from head to toe...

How long is the USB cable connecting the computer to the control box? Saw one person try 25 ft, not good... Is it shielded? I upgraded mine to a high end shielded unit, helped.

PC Config: Do not have any programs installed that could be consuming serious system resources. I can help you verify this if you need to...

(I have virus software installed due to the fact I'm on a network and running DSL connections, if configured correctly it should be OK.)

Is the computer on a network of some type? Wireless? Have also seen a bad NIC card screw up a PC to the point it would not function...

There are a number of factors that could be causing this type of issue. In my experience SB has always helped me out, I'm sure they will help you as well.

JimmyZ

[sawdust535]

I have a new PRS Alpha BT32 (with spindle) that I received a few weeks ago, and other than a few minor glitches (which tech support resolved for me), I haven't experienced any of the above problems. ZZero routine always works fine and it's cutting perfect circles. I'm amazed by the accuracy and repeatability of the machine. I think that some of the suggestions above are worth exploring. Kevin, is your friend's Buddy a standard or an alpha.

[richards]

From my experience, Brady's explanation that the problem is being caused mostly by the computer attached to the Shopbot is the most likely explanation.

The stepper motors that drive the axes on our machines are robust and simple to operate, BUT in order to work correctly, they require a steady pulse stream with each pulse furnished at the proper interval. If anything causes the computer to delay sending a pulse, you're going to have problems.

I've had serious problems with a wireless network card in my computer - so I don't use a wireless network card any more. I've had problems with static and random interference, so I took the time to properly ground my machine. I thought that I had problems with electrical noise caused by the Colombo spindle/Delta VFD, so I installed the proper filters and line reactors (but the real problem in that case was the wireless network card). I had some minor, unexplained glitches that happened from time to time, so I removed all non-essential programs from the Shopbot computer. Finally, when I moved to version 3.5.x software, I installed a USB PCI card and an external USB hub.

NONE of the problems that I've ever had were caused by the Shopbot controller or anything furnished by Shopbot. EVERY problem that I've had, had it's roots in my computer equipment, or in the way that I was using my computer equipment.

It's best to use a systematic approach when you attempt to solve these kinds of problems. If possible, beg, borrow or buy another computer and install the new/other computer on the Shopbot. That may not cure the problem, but if the cut is different in any way, then you know that the computer is the main culprit. IF, the cut is exactly the same as the cut with the original computer, then spend some time grounding the machine. IF, the problem remains with a different computer and with the machine properly grounded, then post your results and we'll all do some more brainstorming.

[kfitz]

These are all great suggestions. Mike's machine is not an Alpha. I believe that between his new daughter and packing up his shop in anticipation of a short move, he is not available at the moment. I'm sure he will check these these things as soon as he has a chance.

My first thought in response to some of the above ideas is: are these things listed in the documentation? They might be, but personally I found the documentation to be worthless. What I mean by that is first, it seemed that he received a ton of info in a three-ring binder, but nothing labeled "Buddy". To me it was the equivalent of buying a Ford F-150, and receiving owners manual on every vehicle in the Ford line except the F-150. Sure, some things might apply to all models, but sorting through the mess makes the gleaning of the correct info a hit-or-miss proposition. If I buy a pre-assembled Buddy machine, don't muddy the waters by giving me detailed documentation on assembling a PRT machine, etc. Adding non-relevant documentation in the book only makes it more difficult to find the relevant. Good documentation eliminates many problems before they start. I'm sure the SB tech support staff would appreciate having customers receive good documentation.

[richards]

Kevin,
We're really talking about two separate issues:

1. Mechanical Setup

2. Electrical/Computer

Since the Buddy is pre-assembled, the Mechanical Setup is done at the factory. A one-page sheet should be enough with instructions on how to open the crate. It may be a little more involved than that, but, unless the machine has been damaged in transit, it should be mechanically ready-to-go.

The electrical/computer issues are more involved and more general in nature. You would use the same computer with any version Shopbot from the Buddy to the largest PRS-Alpha. If you have a computer problem, it wouldn't matter which model Shopbot you had, you would still have a computer problem.

In re-reading all of the posts in this thread, a lot of good advice has been given. Your photos in the very first post shows that unless the machine has a loose gear or a binding roller, that the problem is with the computer or electronics.

I'm almost 100% certain that you will find that the problem is either the computer or improper grounding. The tech support people at Shopbot are knowledgeable in all areas, but even they would have a really hard time fixing a problem that would be classified as the user's responsibility.

Back when I had a problem with my machine - the problem with a wireless network card - I called Shopbot several times. Because the problem started occurring immediately after I had installed the 3hp Colombo spindle, I assumed that I had an electrical noise problem. In the excitement of adding the spindle to a year-old machine, I had totally forgotten that I had changed the networking from wired to wireless. In my defense, I always have at least fifteen computers on-line in my business, so changing a network card in any one computer is not a big thing around here. Those computers are in a constant state of change as I test/troubleshoot networking problems and OS setups for my computer/software customers. On almost every other computer, I've run both hard-wired and wireless network connections without any problem of any kind. The Shopbot computer was the first computer of all the computers that I run that didn't like wireless cards. At no time did I ever mention to the Shopbot staff that I was using a wireless network card. At no time did I ever give that wireless card a second thought - until the night that I just happened to be looking at the computer console when I saw the network icon flash red at the very instant that I heard the PRT-Alpha's stepper motors 'glitch'. At that instant, I knew that I had found the solution to my electrical noise problem, and, I also knew that it was a problem of my own creation. The dropped connection with the wireless card caused the Windows XP-Pro software to momentarily stop servicing timer interrupts that probably greatly affected the flow of step pulses to the stepper motors while it re-established the wireless network connection. In an office environment, that would have been no big deal. Keystrokes would have been saved in a buffer while the Windows OS did its multi-tasking thing and no one would have even known that something unusual had happened. But in an industrial environment, where the computer is sending out pulses in real-time, it was a problem. In fact it was a very real, very big, very expensive problem. It had nothing to do with Shopbot. It had nothing to do with the Shopbot support staff. It had nothing to do with all of the people on the forum who had tried to help me trouble-shoot my machine. It had everything to do with me and my decision to add a wireless network card to the machine.

I'm only bringing this up because in the photos that you posted, it looks like you have a computer related problem or a grounding problem. You can eliminate the computer as a possible cause by using a different computer for a short period of time. You can beef-up the grounding by looking at the photos that have been posted on the forum that clearly show the proper way to ground a machine. Swapping a computer takes about five-minutes. Grounding a machine takes about fifteen-minutes. In either case, it would be time well spent. Having problems with a new machine is frustrating. It's also frustrating to be the person who is responsible for installation, maintenance, design, production and sales. Wearing all of those hats when you really just want to be wearing the production hat can be annoying, but it's all part of running a small business. Because it's hard to be an expert in all of those areas, do yourself a big favor and follow a logical, systematic approach when you work in an unfamiliar 'area'. Try one thing at a time and take good notes.

If you're familiar with many of the software forums, you'll note that when someone has a problem they try to describe the problem as exactly as possible - just as you did in your first post in this thread. Then, when advice is given, they report on the success/failure of each piece of advice. I've been using that very method for the last few days while I've been setting up some computers running Ubuntu Linux in a Virtual Machine configuration. For some reason, the particular combination of software and hardware that I'm using requires that I modify one of the configuration files to include the newly generated 'mac address' of each virtual machine. I had to use a methodical approach. Those that were helping me troubleshoot my problem also used a methodical approach in giving suggestions. We started with the basics and worked towards the specific. That's the same approach that I would advise you to try with your 'Buddy' problem.

As you work through this problem, it would be a great help to others if you would report back on the forum your success or failure as you try each possible solution. Others will have similar problems and your experience in solving this particular problem will help all of us as we face similar problems.

[harve]

First off I want to say thanks to Kevin for all his help along the way. As always, you are welcome to use the Buddy any time. Had it not been for you, I would not have realized I even had the jog issue. What I either miscommunicated or didn't communicate was that I was aware there was an issue with cutting quality (The second issue), but I did nothing about it aside from posting here about my squiggly lines in my picture frames (Harold Weber confirmed that squiggly truly is a word, thanks Harold.)

I received my tool on 11-27, one day after the birth of my first born daughter. My priorities changed immediatley, the tool is now much further down the list of priorities, it gets very little use. To offset that, I decided to move into a shop in my home so I would have time for both of my new babies.

Along with the birth of my daughter, I have been out of town for work on several occasions and am in the middle of moving the Buddy from it's current location to my new shop. I planned to wait until I completed the move this week and had it set back up to work with tech support on a solution. So, while I do have some concerns with my machine and how it has functioned thus far, I want to be fair to tech support and be clear that they have not yet had a chance to work with me on solving this particular problem with my machine. In fact, Frank called me the first thing Monday morning after reading this post. He was very concerned about getting this resolved. My response to him was that I would call him once I get the machine moved and reconnected. In the interim, I will use the advice offered here and by Frank to ensure the computer is not my problem by replacing it. I am out of the office again next week, except this time it is a Buddy week, where I plan to sit down with this tool for ridiculous amounts of time and play. I will have Shopbot support on speed dial. I will post the results of replacing the PC.

[kfitz]

Mike, as I said before, don't hesitate to call me when you are ready to move the machine. There has been a lot of good troubleshooting advice given here. I'll help you work through it when the time comes, if you want.

I may have been a little rough on SB tech support. My apologies.

I do feel very strongly about good documentation. ShopBot- please take my documentation issue as constructive criticism.

[thecustomsignshop]

Mike, congrats on the birth of you daughter.

[harve]

Thanks Jim. It has certainly been a time of change for me. I am figuring out 2 babies simultaneously. Here is a picture of my greatest accomplishment... With a cheap attempt at product placement. Hey, it works in Hollywood!


I have my Buddy moved to it's new home and am loading a new laptop to hopefully, eliminate the issues mentioned above.

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[harve]

I swapped out my computer for the new laptop, but have the same issue. Working with ShopBot support, it was determined the control box was defective. I received the new control box but the problem continued. I called support Saturday and didn't get a return call until mid-day Sunday. I missed the call, but they left a message with instructions. I returned their call and got a response after 9 that night. Putting the baby down so I missed that call. Monday, I emailed to ask if it would be possible to schedule a support call for earlier in the evening after work. I was told support was contacted and were expecting my call. I called at 6:15 and got a return call at 9:30. Tuesday night it was determined that the stepper motors were not the correct motors. Mine are 1 amp, where they were supposed to be 1.5 amp. I was told the correct motors would be shipped yesterday. I found out the next day they wanted to do some more testing to prove that it was a communication issue with my laptop instead of shipping the correct motors. We ran the communication test several times, the machine passed with an average of 72.6. Looking at the performance of the CPU while doing this, the CPU never ran higher than 9% usage. I was told to check the connection of the Y axis motor which involves removing the heat shrink tape over the connector so support said they would call back in 10 minutes giving me time to inspect. This was last night at 8 PM, I am still waiting for that return call.

Replying to the above posts:

The USB cable is the one sent with the new control box. It is about 6 ft. long.

The electrical has never been an issue in the past, but I changed receptacles just in case. I had this issue with the machine in my shop and now in my basement. Two completely separate electrical systems.

The laptop has no antivirus software and is not on a network. As mentioned above there were no processes running demanding a large % of the CPU.
The laptop runs XP Pro and has 2 G RAM.

Support listened while the machine ran and said it sounded normal, not like it was binding.

Support stated that the machine was greased during assembly before leaving their shop and even if not would run for 6 months without a part failing and that a pinion gear failure didn't seem likely given the very limited use and the fact that it is only 5 months old.

Thank you all for your suggestions and if you have any more I would greatly appreciate them.

[harve]

Those of you following this thread may recall that ShopBot sent a new control box to try to resolve the erratic cutting problems I've been having. The new control box did not help. I tried using a brand new PC and added a USB 2.0 hub and this also did not resolve the issue. As a last ditch effort ShopBot sent a new machine. I set up the new machine with the original PC. I have had very limited time to play with it, but the results so far have been fantastic. The machine showed no signs of the erratic movements. One cut I did was my daughters name in a piece of scrap pine. The cut was much smoother and cleaner than any cut I was able to do with the machine in the past. The real test came last night. Kevin Fitz-Gerald brought over a piece of 1" thick PVC plastic for a work related project. (Of all things, a handicap accessible toilet seat.) This machine ate that project up and never even flinched. We did have an "operator error" where we had the feed rate a little high and the dust boot vibrated loose and dropped into the way so we lost some steps and got one profile cut out of place but that one was entirely on the user, not the machine.

I want to thank the folks in the forum for their posts and emails with suggestions and everyone at ShopBot who saw this issue through. They threw everything except the kitchen sink at this issue until a resolution was found. Their top notch support reputation was a major factor in my decision to go with ShopBot in the first place, their "whatever it takes" response to ensure this issue got resolved only confirms I made the right decision.

[bill]

Mike,
Must agree... There's nothing that's perfect... but "Support" both here in the forum and from ShopBot .. a reason I went with ShopBot and will stay with ShopBot.

[wendell]

I had one ground problem setting up my old PRT and Ted called me at home on a weekend after I left a simple message. I've helped setup three other PRTs and two tabletops since and had to call tech support once. They helped me with some values and life was good. Just my experience!

[kfitz]

Wendell,what was the cause of your ground problem?

[wendell]

It was silly mistake. The plastic router sleeve wasn't lined up and the ground screw couldn't make contact. I was setting up my personal machine at home. I was impressed when Ted called to solve my problem.

[kfitz]

Were you getting a shock or was it simply affecting machine performance? In other words, how did you discover the grounding problem in the first place? It is impressive that Ted called you.