Price Check - Double Sided Hanging PVC Sign (For the Trade)

[RossMosh]

Fairly confident I left a decent chunk of money on the table on this job or simply am running too high of a cost to produce this type of sign. I'm looking for what you'd charge and how you would tackle this project.

Details/Specs:
Size: 28"x18" Oval shaped carved sign. Red PMS485 background with white letters
Mounting: Hanging (eye hooks)
Turnaround: 1 week
Customer: For the trade (another "sign shop")

29353
What I did:
Two pieces of 3/4" PVC (Panels fused together with PVC glue). Painted with 3 coats custom mixed PPG DTM paint. Edges sanded, painted, & textured to hide any seams. Letters filled with Krylon Fusion gloss.

Price: $400.

Mistakes:
1. Customer came in needing it in a rush. I had 3/4" in stock and knew to get it done fast, I couldn't do a single panel. The dry times would kill me.
2. Didn't factor enough time for cleaning up the PVC. Cleaning out "fuzzies" in the guy took longer than expected.
3. Carve time estimate was way off. Took twice as long to carve (again, not a huge deal, but still an extra 30 minutes I didn't account for)
4. While it's not a ton of money, buying gallons of paint when I need a quart is wasteful. The paint won't go bad, but it's just wasteful.
5. Free "extras". I only had gloss black so I just spent $5 on a new can of satin black for the hardware. I also textured the edges to hide the mistakes. It's hardly a lot of money, and I have plenty of both left over but it was free add-ons.
6. Trying to be competitive to get wholesale work from a local shop. For a retail customer, my pricing would have been double, easily.

[Alex Naumenko]

My retail is $500, wholesale $400. Rush charge 30% extra if need it in less than a week. Cannot get more than that in my neck of the woods.
Cutting ovals 10 min
Sanding edge 10 min
Gluing 10 min.
Painting 30min
masking 10 min
carving 20min
painting 15 min.
misc 15 min

[Nstep007]

on the bright side... Sign looks great

[robtown]

Looks like you cleared about 115.00 sq foot on this one without having to mess with install.
Its been a while since I priced any signwork, but that seems pretty good.


Fairly confident I left a decent chunk of money on the table on this job or simply am running too high of a cost to produce this type of sign. I'm looking for what you'd charge and how you would tackle this project.

Details/Specs:
Size: 28"x18" Oval shaped carved sign. Red PMS485 background with white letters
Mounting: Hanging (eye hooks)
Turnaround: 1 week
Customer: For the trade (another "sign shop")

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29353&stc=1
What I did:
Two pieces of 3/4" PVC (Panels fused together with PVC glue). Painted with 3 coats custom mixed PPG DTM paint. Edges sanded, painted, & textured to hide any seams. Letters filled with Krylon Fusion gloss.

Price: $400.

Mistakes:
1. Customer came in needing it in a rush. I had 3/4" in stock and knew to get it done fast, I couldn't do a single panel. The dry times would kill me.
2. Didn't factor enough time for cleaning up the PVC. Cleaning out "fuzzies" in the guy took longer than expected.
3. Carve time estimate was way off. Took twice as long to carve (again, not a huge deal, but still an extra 30 minutes I didn't account for)
4. While it's not a ton of money, buying gallons of paint when I need a quart is wasteful. The paint won't go bad, but it's just wasteful.
5. Free "extras". I only had gloss black so I just spent $5 on a new can of satin black for the hardware. I also textured the edges to hide the mistakes. It's hardly a lot of money, and I have plenty of both left over but it was free add-ons.
6. Trying to be competitive to get wholesale work from a local shop. For a retail customer, my pricing would have been double, easily.

[joe]

Nice work and the price is correct.

When I first started working with PVC, instead of HDU or Cedar, it took a little time to figure out the best way to clean it up. I've ended with a flap wheel. A person can really lean down heavy with with one of these. O, by the way, the best adhesive I've found is PVC Gorilla glue. It sets up slow giving a fellow plenty of time to set the clamps. This glue does not expand. Don't get their purple or blue version. It's too weak.

Most of my signs are 4" to 8" in depth so there's plenty of fabrication.

Joe
www.normansignco.co

Joe

[robtown]

Little tip I learned from a Sinatra technician a while back... straight MEK will actually weld pvc together.


Nice work and the price is correct.

When I first started working with PVC, instead of HDU or Cedar, it took a little time to figure out the best way to clean it up. I've ended with a flap wheel. A person can really lean down heavy with with one of these. O, by the way, the best adhesive I've found is PVC Gorilla glue. It sets up slow giving a fellow plenty of time to set the clamps. This glue does not expand. Don't get their purple or blue version. It's too weak.

Most of my signs are 4" to 8" in depth so there's plenty of fabrication.

Joe
www.normansignco.co (http://www.normansignco.co)

Joe

[robtown]

"Sinatra"... heh... I love auto correct...
"Sintra"...


Little tip I learned from a Sinatra technician a while back... straight MEK will actually weld pvc together.

[RossMosh]

Thanks for the kind words and input from everyone. Joe, I used a lot of your recommended construction techniques. I've found they've worked well for me. At this point I'm stacking and gluing PVC rather than pocket it out. Works pretty well and is easier in a lot of ways, especially with the painting.

I'm still a bit up and down about the pricing. It's 7 sq feet @ $400 so that's $57.15 per foot. It's not bad money but I can't help but think it's light. Last week I did a printed sign for someone. I don't typically offer printed signs, but I'm starting to offer it now to see how it goes. Using 6mm ACM and outsourced printed/laminated vinyl and I definitely made more per hour. I think once again it boils down to it being harder to turn a profit on a smaller carved sign. It only takes a few extra minutes to paint a 4x8 panel vs a 2x3 sign. It takes the same amount of time to clean the gun between coats and sometimes it takes almost the same amount of time to carve the sign.

[guitarwes]

Great looking sign. Do you mind sharing your painting techniques? Did you mask and Vcarve after painting it or paint it a different way?

[RossMosh]

Great looking sign. Do you mind sharing your painting techniques? Did you mask and Vcarve after painting it or paint it a different way?

The first thing to mention is, this process depends heavily on what kind of paint you use. Some paints dry faster. Some paints stick better. Some paints go on smoother. I've found this process works with PPG DTM, Nova Color paints, and most enamels. I only use latex paints except for occasionally when I use a rattle can to fill in some letters.

My typical process for PVC: Cut the blank. Prepare surface and edges (sand with 220 grit and wipe off with DNA). Thin paint & spray a good first coat with HVLP gun with 2.5mm tip. Wait a minimum of 24 hours. 48 hours is better. Most sign substrates do not absorb paint at all so it's important to let the paint dry. Then go ahead and spray 1-2 more coats. One in the morning. One in the evening. Again, let dry 24-48 hours. Apply paint mask. I've used Gerber and now use Avery. I've seen no difference in quality. Let is sit for several hours. I normally try to apply in the morning so I can carve after lunch. Carve whatever you want. Clean/sand. Sometimes I prime at this point but normally I just apply the paint. I normally do two coats. One in the evening. One the next morning. Then I let it dry 24 hours. Then remove the masking.

As you can see, it's a relatively long process despite not a lot of the time being active. You can cut a few days out by drying the minimum times and only doing 2 coats. To me, it's cheap insurance to take an extra day or two. I've had signs fail because I rushed. Nothing worse than pealing off the masking and running into problems and basically having to start all over again. I also recommend learning "what works" and sticking to it. Paint choice is particularly important. Choose a "fancy" new paint and it might never cure up or won't let the masking stick at all. Also what works for me might not work for you. Many people lay down a coat of the base color in their letters before applying their fill color. I've had nothing but problems doing it this way. If there is a little bleed (which I've found to be very minor) I'll do a little touch up with a q-tip. But different paints, different materials, different process, it might be incredibly important to lay down that base coat.

[guitarwes]

Thanks so much for the reply. I have a few "freebie" PVC signs to do for a local charity and wanted to be on top of the game before I started as to not cost me any more money than it has already. They want the background and raised letters painted a hunter green and the carved letters to be white (thank God). Your technique will work nicely. Thanks again for taking the time to describe all that.
What feed/speeds do you use for your machine?

[joe]

Ross,

My complements on an excellent post. I agree with all your steps. It seems to me we are on the same page with fabricating and painting.

Wish I had more time to go over the steps like you have. Attached are photo's showing the way I get my depth. It's important with this material to allow for expansion and not to seal the cabinet up tight. We want good airflow.

In terms of pricing: $400. is about as low as one can go. My question is always the same, if I had these to do all day how would my checking account look at the end of the month?

Hope I didn't lead you astray in saying mentioning pocketing.

Joe
www.normansignco.com

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29463&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29464&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29465&stc=1

[roney c]

Hi All,
Would someone mind telling me how you went about putting the eye bolts into your PVC sign? I am assuming the way I would do would be to rout in a 3/8" recess into the back side of both 3/4" PVC blanks and inlay a solid piece of hardwood. So that the hardwood is completely contained within the sandwiched 3/4" PVC blanks. Am I anywhere close?