Open Desk

[VanIslanddan]

https://www.opendesk.cc
I came across this site and though others would appreciate the quality of the design an the community concept similar to 100k Garage.
29640

[bill.young]

Hey Dan,

At ShopBot we're big fans of Opendesk, and have done some collaborations with them including one we called MakeLocal

http://www.shopbotblog.com/2015/10/makelocal-distributed-local-manufacturing-at-the-ny-maker-faire/

[guitarwes]

Pretty cool. Just signed up.

[jTr]

Very exciting, until you download a file. All Metric. All 4'x8' material - all I can get is 5'x5' for 18mm birch in my locale.
Final impediment: flip-ops for the entire sheet. They also don't appear to be laid out as a mirror image on the flips, at least on the fin book shelves. Oh boy....

Anyone else actually successfully complete any of these projects? I think its a great concept, but not sure I want to try with such a mess of complexity, especially critical nature of flip-ops and a file that looks incorrect as drawn.

Jeff

[EricSchimel]

I've made a bunch of their stuff. Check out www.digitallyfabbed.com.

Very cool designs. You'll have to get used to their files though. I end up reworking them quite a bit.

[bill.young]

I have not built the Fin bookcase but have built several of the other designs that make available. I did just download Fin Bookcase files though and have some thoughts:

*) As you know the US is one of the very few places that doesn't use metric units, and you'll find that the majority of designers use metric measurements. Fortunately VCarve Pro makes it really easy to switch back and forth between units, and with a couple of clicks you can work with what you're most comfortable with.

*) 4x8 sheets of Baltic Birch are harder to find for sure than 5x5, but can sometimes be found with some searching. You might see if ApplyPly is available near you..it's a little pricey but nice. If you can't find 4x8 sheets, VCarve Pro will also re-nest the parts into 5x5 sheets for you. The 12mm sheet is nested pretty efficiently in the 4x8 layout so it will take two 5x5 sheets, but the 18mm parts will fit on one 5x5

*) It doesn't look to me like there are any flipped parts in either or the drawing in the Reverse face layout, so as far as I can tell there are no flip ops in the Fin Bookcase. Several of the designs that they have do require flipping though, and you'll find those features mirrored on the Reverse Faces sheet.

Hope this helps,
Bill

[EricSchimel]

I've noticed in their designs they often show a "reversed sheet" even if you don't actually need to flip it for milling.

Whenever I make their stuff I usually end up drawing it in 3D (despite Bill's objections! :) ) just to get an understanding of how it all fits together.

If you don't want to draw in 3D OpenDesk has posted a ton of their designs to 3D warehouse:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=ucd83f022-1929-4320-9bcd-48b072fc6826

You can view them there, or just download SketchUp MAKE (it's free) and you can view them in detail there.

[jTr]

Bill,
Sounds good. I allowed myself to get a mental block over the metrics. Played with dxf's in VCPro last night and see it can handle the metrics just fine. That back panel really had my head spinning - couldn't understand why pocketing was needed on back face.

Eric,
I've been living in Sketchup for 10 years now, so the model helped me fully understand how this goes together. I'm wondering if you need to use the second drawing in their dxf download if making a companion case to lock back to back with the first one...?
Anyhow, with a 3D model to verify how it all works, I am much more confident now.

Like anything else- little bit of a learning curve. Just need to reconfigure for the 5x5' sheets and take a run at it. They have some very clever/appealing designs that I'd like to try, so I'm glad I asked before dismissing the whole process entirely.


Thanks for the help!

Jeff

[EricSchimel]

I don't know specifically about the Fin cabinet as I haven't made one just yet.

I often find I tweak their designs a bit. I do really love the nearly hardwareless design, but sometimes a good old bolt and nut can make things work much more easily. If you want to attach two of these together back to back it might be a whole lot easier to use a cabinet connector like this:

29658

Then you don't have to worry about flipping the piece. Drilling a hole is easy!

[bill.young]

Not sure why I got in my head that one of the sheets was 18mm and the other was 12mm. All the parts are 18mm.

Sorry if I muddied the waters,
Bill

[jTr]

sorry - duped - see next post for what I meant to say...

[jTr]

Yep - got a bin full of those connectors on hand.
Have either of you committed to being a fabber for Opendesk? Just wondering if the concept is catching on well. At a minimum, I see making a couple items for myself. Just wondering if it is worth opening the door to being a local fabricator on their list.
(Once comfortable with this whole concept and successful at producing these items, of course!)

Jeff

[EricSchimel]

You might be thinking of the AtFab Open Cabinetm that's got two ply thicknesses. 12 for the dividers, 18 for the box.

[bill.young]

I wish it was that simple!

[EricSchimel]

jTr I am an OpenDesk fabber. I've gotten a reasonable amount of quote requests from them, not much has turned into actual work though. I think if you're going to really make their stuff at any reasonable amount you'll have to market yourself. I've had reasonable success doing that.

Marketing is easy, the big hurdle is learning how to make this stuff. The designs are good, there's just nuance in each one and if you mess it up you'll have loose joints and mis-fitting parts. Pay attention and you can make some awesome stuff.

[bill.young]

As Eric knows all too well I've become pretty curmudgeonly in my old age, but here are some thoughts to help deal with cutting imprecise materials using precise tools.

http://www.shopbotblog.com/2015/10/my-lovehate-relationship-with-plywood/

Bill

[EricSchimel]

Thanks to Bill, it's taken me a while to really think in the following way when I design stuff...

When I first designed this:

http://digitallyfabbed.com/#/maker-bench/ It was designed with the plywood thickess as part of the design. This means that I'd have to tweak the model for each sheet of plywood. Eventually what I did was build a parametric model so that I could punch in a plywood thickness and it would rebuild my model. Some OpenDesk (and other) designs depend on the plywood thickness being taken into consderation for them to work. In this table one of the most obvious areas where it's important is that stretcher across the bottom. For that to work it's got to pinch on those legs perfect. Too loose and the table wobbles, too tight and you'll be sanding a lot to get it to work.

As I've designed more stuff, I've tried my best to work around thickness. If you think of thickness of material as a variable you can't control, but the profile that the machine can cut out as a variable you CAN control, you can design differently... Take these sawhorses for example:

http://blog.sketchup.com/article/get-started-cnc-sketchup-sawhorse

I designed these to be thickness agnostic. You've got to use any 3/4 plywood, and the way I did the joints is that they will work on plywood anywhere from .650 to .76" thick. You can even mix and match. All of the cutting is done zeroing off of the table, not the top of the wood so that your pockets always end up at the same Z height so they line up with the adjacent holes.

Desiging these sawhorses this way allows just about anyone anywhere with nearly any plywood to cut these and have them work the way I designed them to work.

Now, if you look really closely at a lot of the OpenDesk stuff there's a mixture bewtween these two design stiles. The AtFab range for example really depends on plywood thickness being dead on, or having a parametric model. Some of the OpenDesk tables have cleverly done pockets with adjacent "mouths" that slide into those pockets. Both the mouth and that pocket depth are things that the tool cuts out so it's under your control so it will work more often.

Hope that made sense!

[jTr]

Eric,
Good angle of discussion. Typical carcase construction in my shop is done as you describe- zero to the bed and let ply thickness fluctuations fall to the inside of the cabinet = outside dimensions are within a few thousandths of target size. Run of the mill built ins and gang installations such as kitchens go more smoothly with this methodology. I am simply using dados rabbets and pocket screws 95% of the time.

As for the Open Source 100k garages etc, they boldly go into this dicey realm of highly accurate joinery with an inaccurate product, the plywood. It seems to defeat the universality of execution.

Simply put: Thickness of tenons (tabs) must be established by machining with the cnc via pocketing, just as width of mortise (slot, pocket, etc.) is established by the cnc. This will reduce margin of error to a few thousandths vs. measurable fractions in ply thickness. Accuracy of this is greatly enhanced by Zeroing to the bed.

I understand there are those who have purchased machines and have zero drafting/designing skills, and a ready to cut plan is just the ticket. I read Opensource's forum enough to note this, as well as cries for help regarding things not fitting, which appear to garner little to no assistance.

Sometimes, I think we get overly excited about 100% digital fabrication, just because we bought this sexy new piece of technology and we feel we must prove it can do everything. However, if we have to tweak each design, we risk defeating the whole concept of "ready to cut". For those unable to generate their own designs digitally prior to buying a cnc, this must be incredibly discouraging.

Hopefully they can tweak a little more simplicity into this ambitious outpouring of optimism regarding the future of furniture production.
I wish them luck, as their hearts are in the right place.

Jeff

[EricSchimel]

jTr: Question for you:

So what do you think is the biggest hurdle in making OpenDesk stuff? Are the files hard to figure out? I know they send flat DXF files which can sometimes be difficult to decipher. Did you get a better understanding of what you were milling after you saw the SksetchUp 3D model?

[AlexRobinson]

I think it is pretty good :cool: