Newbie looking for advice on SB selection

[Pennywood]

Greetings all,
I am in the lurking stage of buying a shopbot, and was hoping to get some advice about which machine to purchase.
Primarily I think it would be used for 3D relief work, but I'm new enough to the prospect that I don't know what it CAN do. Occasionally I build custom gun stocks, and while I haven't had any luck searching this site for others who do this, I'm sure the cnc would be indispensable for routing the receiver pocket.
My specific question is "could I carve a complete stock with a 6 inch Z?"
There are tons of other questions regarding models and features, but I think that's where I want to start. Please redirect me if that is not the thing I should be most concerned with at this point, and thank you in advance for helping me wade through the learning process

[scottp55]

Understand that I know ZIP about indexers and making gunstocks, but Nate at Shobot was playing with them a couple years ago;
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?19522-gunstocks
And try Google search for pics;
https://www.google.com/search?q=shopbot+forum+dedicated+indexer&num=20&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw5ZyUnJfTAhUJySYKHWRxCI8Q_AUICSgE&biw=1366&bih=628
A couple Luthiers have managed a 9"Z for a Desktop, Look at Max's comments and video;
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?19939-Any-word-on-a-z-axis-upgrade-kit
Wish I could help more, but maybe the indexer big guys will chime in?
Welcome! :)
scott

[Pennywood]

Thank you Scott. Those links were very helpful. I can see how Weston's mod works, and it's impressive. I understand conceptually how the indexer works, and it would definitely make the shape easier to cut. Being able to rotate the whole stock gives the cutter access to the entire shape.
I've been looking at the different models trying to decide how to proceed. I haven't called shopbot yet to discuss the available z options, but I believe they offer a 12". There seems to be a cautionary tone in the forum regarding its merit, though. Am I mistaken in this?

[steve_g]

Pennywood…
I have a PRT with 12” Z and regular access to a PRS with 6”. Any “cautionary” concerns regarding the 12” are due to the additional leverage a bit has against the mechanics of the gantry, and ensuing less smooth cuts… An experienced operator can overcome this issue by carefully choosing his cut direction and using onionskin toolpath strategies. Sometimes you just must have the additional Z height!

If I could only have one machine, it would be the 12” one. One method that could be used if this became a real issue, is to have a temporary table “riser” that raised the bed for normal cuts by 6” and was removed for those times when more Z was needed.

IMHO the issue is more imagined or theoretical than real…
SG

[Pennywood]

Thanks Steve, that is reassuring. I am not, by any means, an experienced operator. I hope to someday become one ;)
I'm assuming "onionskin" is what it sounds like, (I searched the forum, and the word is used a ton, but the context does not clarify exactly what it means) cutting close to the final dimensions with a rough cut, or bit, and making a final cut at a lower speed or load (or direction)?
If I understand your implication, the greater z axis capability does not inherently create additional lateral forces on the gantry, but the additional leverage is relevant only when at cutting at maximum axis setting. Since I'm currently thinking of a 48 x 48 machine a riser box should be viable, if necessary

[chiloquinruss]

"a riser box should be viable" If the primary thing you are getting a machine for is gun stocks then I would go the other way, that is instead of a rise how about a pit! Seriously imagine the 'log' is half buried in the machine with half above the surface and half below. The requirement for a higher 'Z' would not be necessary. Some on here have modified their tables by mounting their indexer crossways on the very end of their table or by having an opening in the table. I'm not sure that would work for a Desktop but it would work on my 48x96 table like the example below. Russ

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30042&stc=1

[Pennywood]

Thank you, Russ, that certainly would make a stable mount!
The first operation in cutting a stock (at least using conventional methods) is to cut the receiver pocket, which means cutting through the deepest axis of the stock. It's the required bit length that makes me think the 6" z movement would complicate, if not prevent, the cnc from being able to do the job.
I'm committed to the prospect of expanding into the world of cnc, so I'm trying to anticipate which axis limitations would be least restrictive to the types of projects we are likely to take on. Honestly, the digital modeling of a stock seems impossibly complex to me, but someday I may learn to do it. Currently the checkering and "decorative" cutting actually takes more time than roughing the shape, and if I could somehow program that it would save many hours of eye strain. I see there are many fine examples of checkering on gun parts and signs, so apparently curved parts aren't a problem.
That being said, stocks currently make up a small percentage of the work we turn out, and I'm not sure acquiring a cnc will contribute to any change in that situation.

[Tim Lucas]

A little more to expand your possibilities - If you purchase a machine and the Aspire software you could pay someone for creating the tool paths needed for your complete gunstock and any other 3d item, at least until you can get familiar with the software and machine.

I would think for your interest you would want an indexer set low like in Russ picture either on a 48 x 48 or a 48 x 96 setup.

Just my opinion
Tim

[scottp55]

You may want to join the Vectric forum as well, as I came up with pages of thread references and they may explain why you need to get an accurate model of the stock before you can consider carving on it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=vectric+forum+gun+stocks+site:forum.vectr ic.com&num=20&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizq87e-5nTAhUUImMKHVYtBcQQrQIIJygEMAA&biw=1366&bih=628
You may very well consider upping to Aspire, as the gun stock model itself will not be a Vectric .v3m file format, and VCarvePro(VCP) will only allow one example of a non-native format per file(there are work arounds though), and although Design and Make(Vectric .v3m format available) has a lot of nice models, there are many other good 3D files that would probably be in other formats.
Checkering and VCarving could be done easily one you have the stock contour model by either probe or scan with the included VCP software.

Russ, He couldn't do a recessed area with the Desktop because of the Y screw under the deck in the center...Possibly with the MAX, but pretty sure the aluminum extrusions are across the 24" axis, which would be a pain to swap and recess. Even the RWS rifle I bought to use with my Match pistol Diana pellets for indoor and backyard shooting has a 3/4 stock 32.5" long, so that may throw out the MAX as well.

That's a shame as he plans to do small intricate stuff like mine a little anyways.
Probably working in Black Walnut, which is great, but still fairly often you have to do a second pass for clean up, and Desktop repeatability is exceptional. REALLY tough to sand any details when that small without losing some detail that you worked so hard to get.

Pennywood,
What sizes were you thinking in your head for 3D carvings?
Double sided models, or bas-relief?
Remember that you'll probably be making stuff you never thought about when you considered the machine:)
Jigging for all the other machines in the shop comes to mind!
scott

[scottp55]

Have you seen Gene's machine?
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?23707-Would-trade-4x4-4x8-PRS-for-Desktop-Max

[Pennywood]

Thank you for the responses, I'll try to address the questions and suggestions to the degree that I understand them.
Tim, I had not considered subcontracting the design work, mostly because I haven't met anyone who had the expertise. That hurdle has probably been cleared with this forum :)
I've havent looked at the vectric forum, still trying to absorb everything here. I'll check it out tonight
Software is still a complete mystery to me. I'm not even sure what that machine comes with (I guess you just told me Vcp). I've heard "aspire" a lot, and rhino... you've mentioned vcarvepro and vectric, but have no idea which would be best, or if you end up learning them all.
If the cnc creates checkering that matches standard 20 or 30 lpi tools, maintaining the detail is pretty straightforward. There's tons of sanding involved, and once the checkering is complete I just mask it, and touch up the rest of the stock.
As far as 3D carvings, I'm guessing I wouldn't make anything bigger than 3x4, and even that seems huge and would take 100 hours? To carve.
The only two sided carving I've ever done was on an outdoor bench, or a huge 30' sign (that was just lettering) so unless that kind of work starts walking in the door, I probably won't go that direction.
Fixtures and jigs would be at the top of my current list, which is unambitious. Drawer sides are a possibility, but I already have several fixtures for the various types. (Is there an area to sell misfit, outdated jigs that the shopbot replaced?)
I've never really thought the desktop would be big enough, although it obviously produces great results. I have lots of space, so I've always anticipated getting a floor machine.
I did follow your link to Gene's machine. It looks like he has a 12" z. I haven't looked up the desktop max to see what he's asking, but it sounds plausible. Any idea what year it was made?

[tri4sale]

Software is still a complete mystery to me. I'm not even sure what that machine comes with (I guess you just told me Vcp). I've heard "aspire" a lot, and rhino... you've mentioned vcarvepro and vectric, but have no idea which would be best, or if you end up learning them all.


When I was a beginner, I remember being confused by all the software names begin thrown around. Here's my brief overview, check out www.vectric.com for full details on differences:

Vectric - Makes VCarve Desktop, VCarve Pro and Aspire

VCarve software - 2D design and layout. Two versions, Desktop and Pro
VCarve Desktop - limited to 24x24 size work areas.
VCarve Pro - allow working larger areas

VCarve is the software that comes with ShopBots, used for the design of your work. Not sure if they provide the Desktop or Pro version of Vcarve when you buy a ShopBot desktop.

Aspire - Everything VCarve Pro does, plus adds the ability for 3D design

VCarve will import and cut 3D designs, you just can't create / edit them (correct me if I am wrong).

One great thing about Vectric is their upgrade path, basically if you buy a lower version (Desktop or Pro), and want to upgrade (to say Aspire), you just pay the difference, so you can start out with lower version and upgrade later as needed, and not out any money.

Rhino is another 2D / 3D design software. I have no experience with this, and most ShopBotters will be familiar with the Vectric family of software since thats what comes with ShopBots.

[Pennywood]

Thank you Daniel, for typing all that out. It really does help to realize that most people are using the software that comes with the machine. And that most of the references are to a vcarve family of software. Is aspire harder to learn?
My daughter is getting married this week, so I don't have much time to surf.
I'm positive that I want to learn to cut 3d designs, so I'm wondering if that's what I should start with. I remember reading that there was a practice software that I could download and start becoming familiar with its operation, but when I downloaded it, i couldn't get it to run. Is that because I'm using am iPad? Thanks again for demystifying the software thing

[steve_g]

Pennywood…

The Vectric family of software is not Apple friendly…

IMHO most Shopbot users use the Vectric family of software not only because it comes with new machines, but because it’s the best software available!

VCP (V Carve Pro) is a subset of Aspire and any time spent learning it is not wasted if you eventually purchase Aspire.

3D modeling in any software is difficult and time consuming. I’d suggest you become proficient in all other aspects of CNC operation before you tackle it! 99% of the time the 3D model you want has already been created by someone else and is available for a few dollars, or an artist is willing to customize what you need for a reasonable fee…

Not many customers are willing to pay for the time it takes to develop stunning 3D work and the additional machine time required to produce it! 90% of the time a v-carve satisfies the artistic need! The attached image shows a v-carve of leaves on the inside of a man’s valet, modeling this in 3D would have added very little and would have added many additional hours of machine time!
SG
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30051&stc=1

[scottp55]

I think Dan has the unofficial 3D record time:) ;
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?20923-The-Bears
But it's a HUGE cut. Check out some of Dan's other cuts on other threads as well!
Desktops used to come with VCarve Pro, but there was no "Desktop" version back then....I think it's still the full version as I was talking to someone last year and he had "Gadgets" available(which means the full version).
VCarve Pro can easily do 3D cuts, but Modding/creating we can't do beyond the tools shown in the 2 pics.
But at least we can do these...WAY easier and more tools than before version 8!! :)
You'd have to ask Gene about his machines specifics, and I'm thinking I like Russ and Tim's suggestion for a recessed area, but I'm out of my depth talking about anything except Desktops, and only know what I read.
Sounds like you'll be busy!
No idea why the downloaded trial version didn't work...can you try it on a laptop or full PC?

[steve_g]

Pennywood…

The Vectric family of software is not Apple friendly…
IMHO most Shopbot users use the Vectric family of software not only because it comes with new machines, but because it’s the best software available!

VCP (V Carve Pro) is a subset of Aspire and any time spent learning it is not wasted if you eventually purchase Aspire.

3D modeling in any software is difficult and time consuming. I’d suggest you become proficient in all other aspects of CNC operation before you tackle it! 99% of the time the 3D model you want has already been created by someone else and is available for a few dollars, or an artist is willing to customize what you need for a reasonable fee…

Not many customers are willing to pay for the time it takes to develop stunning 3D work and the additional machine time required to produce it! 90% of the time a v-carve satisfies the artistic need! The attached image shows a v-carve of leaves on the inside of a man’s valet, modeling this in 3D would have added very little and would have added many additional hours of machine time!
SG
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30058&stc=1

[tri4sale]

Thank you Daniel, for typing all that out. It really does help to realize that most people are using the software that comes with the machine. And that most of the references are to a vcarve family of software. Is aspire harder to learn?
My daughter is getting married this week, so I don't have much time to surf.
I'm positive that I want to learn to cut 3d designs, so I'm wondering if that's what I should start with. I remember reading that there was a practice software that I could download and start becoming familiar with its operation, but when I downloaded it, i couldn't get it to run. Is that because I'm using am iPad? Thanks again for demystifying the software thing

Yes, the software won't run on an iPad. They are Windows only software.

If you just want to cut 3D designs other's make, go with VCarve Pro.
If you want to CREATE 3d designs, go with Aspire.

On the 2D side, VCarve and Aspire are pretty much identical, I don't know of any differences, so from that standpoint, Aspire is no harder to learn.
On the 3D side, well, I've not done any creating, so I can't vouch for how hard it is to design / create 3D from scratch. I've got Aspire, but I've not delved into the 3D creation world yet.

Vectric and ShopBot have great tutorials online covering most everything you'll need to know, thats a great place to start and learn.

[Pennywood]

I don't know how to quote text from other messages
I'm confused by "if you want to just cut 3-D design others make, go with vcarve pro, if you want to create 3-D designs, go with aspire"
I thought aspire was an upgraded version of vcarve pro. Do you mean that I cannot cut 3D designs others make with aspire?

The Bears 3D carving was the one I previously encountered, although I didn't realize how big it was. Amazing detail, I dream of the day when I can make such things.

[scottp55]

Aspire is VCP's big brother, and we can cut any model they make, provided they export it in a format we can import(.stl format is most common it seems).
Perhaps watch this tutorial by TJ on "Importing";
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nwhHNcylrc
TJ gives an online class(see training section) roughly once a month that is free to all and covers different topics with a nice Q&A session afterwards for any questions. It look like they finally revamped the training video page:)
http://www.shopbottools.com/mSupport/tutorials.htm

You can import any 3D file types on this list;
http://support.vectric.com/vcp-questions/item/what-3d-file-formats-can-be-imported-copy?category_id=91
If you can import it, the the program(VCP) that comes standard with a new machine will cut it. IF buying a used machine, you have to transfer the license and then upgrade(through Shopbot and their edition is cheaper as it only exports cut files to a Shopbot) to at least version 8.5** for the modeling tools in my pics.
You can always upgrade to Aspire if you find you'll need it, for only the difference in cost....so try VCP for a while and then decide I'd say.
The basic tools are the same, so you won't have to learn anything except the new modeling tools that Aspire has.
Hoping this helps....it's a lot to swallow in one bite, but makes more sense as you get into it.
scott

[tri4sale]

I don't know how to quote text from other messages

Lower right corner of message click on "Reply with Quote"



I'm confused by "if you want to just cut 3-D design others make, go with vcarve pro, if you want to create 3-D designs, go with aspire"
I thought aspire was an upgraded version of vcarve pro. Do you mean that I cannot cut 3D designs others make with aspire?

No, Aspire lets you design your own 3D designs, and cut others 3D designs by importing.

Basically, the software is Good / Better / Best - VCarve Desktop / VCarve Pro / Aspire

As you go up in software level, you do everything the lower version can do plus more. So Pro does what Desktop does plus some more, and Aspire does what Pro does and more.

[scottp55]

Dan,
Thanks for quote thing, never used it.
You might want to wait a hair for Aspire 9, as Michael M. and others are already throwing serious hints(hope it goes for VCP also) :)
Pennywood is all set, as upgrades are free for the first year...saving my pennies here, as VCP 8 was such a mind blower being able to get rid of Cut3D except for maybe 4 sided machining.
Sooo much easier to toolpath/preview now.
Can't wait to see what 9 brings to the table....VCP 8 being halfway to Aspire now:)
Glad someone with a full size is helping!!
I'm only really fair at Teeny stuff
Days long cuts scare me even machine is only 40' away... I LIKE the small cut times! :)
Longest cut was 19 hours for the Allagash topo, and couldn't sleep a wink!
OP(Pennywood), it really depends on what you would LOVE to do, as far as detail, if bills to pay and you don't have the market, bottom line will suffer:(
scott

[tri4sale]

Dan,
Thanks for quote thing, never used it.
You might want to wait a hair for Aspire 9, as Michael M. and others are already throwing serious hints(hope it goes for VCP also) :)
Pennywood is all set, as upgrades are free for the first year...saving my pennies here, as VCP 8 was such a mind blower being able to get rid of Cut3D except for maybe 4 sided machining.
Sooo much easier to toolpath/preview now.
Can't wait to see what 9 brings to the table....VCP 8 being halfway to Aspire now:)
Glad someone with a full size is helping!!
I'm only really fair at Teeny stuff
Days long cuts scare me even machine is only 40' away... I LIKE the small cut times! :)
Longest cut was 19 hours for the Allagash topo, and couldn't sleep a wink!
OP(Pennywood), it really depends on what you would LOVE to do, as far as detail, if bills to pay and you don't have the market, bottom line will suffer:(
scott

Yes, I'm waiting for 9 to come out, seen a few hints about it too. I contacted Vetric and they give a 90 day upgrade guarantee (if I bought 8.5 and 9 came out in 90 days it was free) but 1 year for new purchases (buy 8.5 new and 9 comes out in 1 year it was free) so I decided to wait for 9.

I'm trying to find me a desktop in my budget for some small and portable jobs, key is "in my budget"! Long cuts scare me too, since machine is in my attached garage, if something bad happened could be really bad really fast. Longest cut I've done is about 2 hours. I break my jobs up into parts so that I can stop running and come back to later if needed rather than run a really long cut.

Saving pennies, nickels and dimes, want Aspire 9 when it comes out, an indexer, a desktop.... list never ends.

[Pennywood]

Thanks guys, for all the help! I'm actually leaning towards the desktop max with the spindle and software, now. I'd spend most of my allocated funds on a small alpha, with no money left for a spindle or software if I went that way. The desktop seems like a good way to discover if this is something I want to persue, and I'll have the goodies to experiment a bit.
I tried to quote text in my response, but only managed to corrupt my reply, and retype it.
Scott, I don't have much pressure to make the cnc pay bills, but if I can't find a way to make money with it, I probably won't expand to a bigger machine any time soon. Those carvings you make are really cool!