Artcam is no more?

[sawkerf]

Hi folks, I got a message from artcam yesterday stating that as of 7 Feb 2028, Artcsm is no longer available. After my troubled past with this company, I had refused to purchase anymore upgrades since 2012. I continue to use it as is since it is what I am used to. Last year I purchased V carve pro in hopes of making the switch. However, I have been way too busy to spend time learning the new software. My question is this. Will v carve pro do the automatic nesting and tool pathing like artcam? I use KCD software to generate my DXF output. Any advise is greatly appreciated.

[bleeth]

FYI: Your AC 2012 will continue to work as long as you have a computer that will support it.
Of course, at some point computers will go only 128bit and above and Windows will stop running the older programs and a computer that will run much of the older software will only be in museums!

[Brady Watson]

Depending on what version of Artcam you are running, the functionality will vary between functions in VCP and what you are used to in Artcam. Personally, I have found nesting to be lame in any program & prefer to nest things out manually. Nothing trumps the power of the human mind in this regard.

Yes - Artcam is pretty much dead now thanks to AutoDesk. They bought it, ran it into the ground, lied to loyal customers - freely taking their thousands of dollars in maintenance fees knowing full well they wouldn't be doing any more development on the software and would be killing it off. They let all their ArtCAM staff go - all the people who were there for many, many years - so much knowledge and skill down the tubes. AutoDesk has a history of killing off (https://www.cadnauseam.com/autodesk-graveyard/) free, low cost or inexpensive programs that were accessible to the little guy.

Many have only had exposure to Vectric products, which for most fits their needs perfectly. However, many have absolutely no clue just how brilliant ArtCAM has been as a tool for advanced high resolution relief creation and 3D toolpathing. There are toolpaths in there that can make your lowly ShopBot produce work that would make your eyeballs pop out of your head...the kind that needs no sanding...all that's down the drain now, or at least until your license or dongle keeps working.

Truth be told, Vectric is WAY better at listening to their customer base and implementing changes - so we should all be thankful for that. It's a shame that this software was acquired and subsequently killed - the only losers here are those who could have benefited from the advanced features and tools - and now many will never know what could have been possible on the higher rungs of the ladder. So now there will be veterans who know what you don't know, in terms of what is possible - while you, still don't know, what you don't know. This is unfortunate because instead of getting better or more advanced, CNC routing as it relates to relief work & 3D machining is getting dumbed down.

Vectric posted this announcement (http://www.vectric.com/support/switching-to-vectric.html), basically saying that they would not be going to a subscription based licensing scheme & that permanent licensing would remain:


If I buy a Vectric product will I actually own the software?

Yes – from day one you will own the software outright. In addition, unlike most software companies Vectric allow you to transfer your licence to another user if you sell your CNC on the payment of a small licence transfer fee.


Kudos & gratitude to Vectric for taking the road less traveled - and supporting the little guy trying to feed his family. Furthermore, upon hearing about the demise of ArtCAM, Vectric Aspire now has the ability to import ArtCAM v9 .RLF files - which is a life line for guys who have 15+ years of 3D relief work that they may get locked out of soon. Vectric is such a great company for doing this - and they have my deepest respect for it. We should all be thanking them for making this decision because it DIRECTLY AFFECTS ALL OF US!

I am personally boycotting ANY software company that does not offer a permanent license of their products. While other types of software are less critical to day to day operations, I find the idea of holding a working man's files and ability to work during slow times, repugnant. It is by definition a cardinal sin. They do not care about the little guy scratching his way through to make a living doing this type of work - they only care about the money - and I will vote with my dollar by not supporting them and their wicked ways - as my allegiance lies with the working man and his sovereign right to work. Imagine a guy with a wife and small children, weathering out a slow period and then an opportunity to get out of the hole comes along...but he doesn't have the money to pay just to have access to the tools he needs to work. Think about that - Do you like giving your money to people who think this kind of thing is OK? At some point you have to take a stand and say enough is enough...otherwise, you're part of the problem by condoning it. I am disappointed that ShopBot is bundling AutoDesk software with its tools.

There is no such thing as 'free' anywhere, anyhow, any time EVER - so beware of strangers bearing gifts (of the free CAD/CAM kind) because they WILL start demanding their pimp fee from you every month when the gravy train ends. Don't be fooled by these snakes and their tactics. Have a look at the list of software they laid to waste (https://www.cadnauseam.com/autodesk-graveyard/) - pretty much verifying their track record of throwing YOU - the working man - under the bus. Think it won't happen to 360? I think it will - and the only way to keep going is to pay them their fee because you would have invested too many hours to learn something else in order to keep working.

-B

[bleeth]

I agree with every word Brady.
As an FYI Dongle licenses for AC are good to 2055.
(I personally don't think I will be able to take advantage of that!)
ADSK no dongle with perpetual will remain perpetual.
Subscription versions are history after Feb 2019.
Gary B will still offer support.
Dillon posting on an Adesk AC forum (Last AC employee there from what I heard).
Open Source forum being discussed.

[Chuck Keysor]

As my little post-script, back while I was working (and more willing to spend money) and first got interested in CNC machining relief images (2004, 2005) I investigated the available software.........

All I could find was ArtCam and Mastercam Art. They were both big bucks, and charged annual maintenance. Since they taught Mastercam (regular only) at my community college, I took a semester class, then bought Mastercam Art, for something above $10,000. I paid around $1200/year for maintenance.

Well, by the time I remodeled my basement to accept my big Shopbot, (added an outside access door, moving walls, moving/removing cast-iron soil stacks, installing big LVL's, redoing electrical for 200 amp service,,,,, etc) I had been on Mastercam maintenance for maybe 6 or so years, and never even used my Mastercam ART software! As soon as I found out about Vectric's Aspire, I stopped paying maintenance on my MasterCAM art,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I was hosed and am still upset.......... and as a result, I will always be thankful to Aspire, and PRAY that they keep doing business as they do, and that they don't sell out..............

Chuck

[Gary Campbell]

From my perspective, having never purchased ACPro, but had a few occasions to use Part Wizard, Insignia and ArtCAM, I never could justify the Cost of ArtCAM, but appreciated the machining features that were there. I used Part Wizard (ArtCAM Express as it was named until recently killed) was a good bargain, but Insignia had the tools I needed.

I was almost shocked to see the "123D" (now Fusion360) logo on the SB website. I was aware of the relationship the Vectric principals had with the higher ups at ShopBot and know that the way that ShopBot and Vectric do business is the antithesis of anything one could find out about Autodesk. With a history of killing off even the most insignificant of competitors, buying up and killing off it's major competitors, what the hell could the folks at ShopBot be thinking to get in bed with Autodesk? With a "no upfront cost" software, and no profit to be made from a sale, how can ShopBot support the product? How can anyone, including Autodesk?

My Grandpa used to say when I asked him one of this type of "Why would someone...." question: Boy, they were lied, buyed or bribed, or just plain dumb.

Are there a lot of ShopBotters using Fusion 360? Has Autodesk's coke dealer business model caught you up in the subscription scheme yet? Are you willing to keep investing more to use it? You don't really think that once they kill of every competitor, large and small, that the prices are going down, do you?

Do the posts for ShopBot work properly?

[sawkerf]

I am using Artcam insigia 2012. 99% of my work is strictly residential cabinetry. I occasionally do a little carving but not nearly what I would like. Since my work relies heavily on the nesting and toolpath templating function, I am mainly interested in how this works in Vcarve Pro. Do I need to upgrade to Aspire?

Brady, I agree 100% with your view! I also like to tweak my nesting done by artcam because, like you said, nothing beats the human mind, but in my two man shop, we can turn out a whole bunch of cabinets very quickly powered with even decent software! I hope Vectric will fill this void.

[dlcw]

I've found that eCabinets/SBLink/AspireSketchup do 99.9% of what I need to do. I can export DXF's from Sketchup and import them into Aspire and cut furniture parts. Ecabs may not be as powerful as some of the other cabinet design software, but it does everything I need to do a lot of cabinet jobs every year. It hasn't failed me yet. Little speedbumps are overcome with INCREDIBLE help from the eCabs forum and Thermwood support. Same goes with Vectric and Shopbot. Support is a little more difficult with Sketchup but still somewhat obtainable.

I would be willing to bet that the big guys don't have nearly the community and company support that eCabs/SBLink/Aspire have. You probably have to shell out TONS of maintenance money to be put in a queue that says "Your call will be ignored in the order that it was received" or "we'll get back to you at OUR earliest convenience". That's what I've seen from these big companies that think they are king of the hill and the customer doesn't matter. I dumped Mazaeks (sp?) try at cabinet design software, which runs on top of Sketchup, because of their monthly maintenance "fees" and their incredible CRAPPY attitude towards customer.

I agree with Brady on the big companies draining the little guy bankrupt thru maintenance fees. The really sad part is they could care less. These big companies only sell avenues for customers to send them money. And that is just plain wrong. Like Brady, I will vote with my $$ on who I buy from. Shopbot/Thermwood/Vectric/Sketchup get my vote right now.

[sawkerf]

I'm a loyal and very long time KCD user. The same things that dew me to shopBot, drew me to KCD way back in 1998! Great service and a great product! Those of you who use KCD along with Vcarve or asspire, please chime in.

[Brady Watson]

sawkerf - go download a demo of VCP and see for yourself how well it nests your parts. Nobody can decide but you.

--


...draining the little guy bankrupt thru maintenance fees...

Maintenance fees aren't a problem as long as you get something in return, and they are completely voluntary. Historically, this meant getting additional 'goodies' only available to those on maintenance, the latest version/upgrade, additional support and training from the reseller and other perks. Typically there is some value there when talking about maintenance fees. It was completely underhanded for AutoDesk to charge maintenance fees when there was no upgrade available (or going to be available EVER), or much else of anything aside from support from the reseller. But maintenance is NOT where the big problem is...

The BIG problem is this: They don't sell perpetual licenses, only monthly/yearly RENTALS of their software. Why? So they can keep milking you over and over again to make their stock look better. You don't pay? You don't play. Game over.

So again - picture this if you will, because it hits home with many who may be reading this....and let's keep in mind that I am personally not that far removed from hard times - When I was first starting out in this business, I was keeping the thermostat on 50F, making the dog hang out in bed for a few minutes to warm me up and eating beans & cheese many nights because failure was not an option. I was laser point focused on making my way no matter what. A 3 dog night? I wished...it was a 1 dog night...and I was thankful for that.

Imagine leaving the job you hated to fulfill your dream of running a CNC job shop or other type of business where CAD/CAM is absolutely CRITICAL to your success. Things are rockin and poppin and you're pulling in some good coin. The monthly rental for your software is let's say, $150/month. It's a business write off...it isn't that much money at that point in time to you. Then business tapers off because of something that happens in the news (remember what happened after 9/11? 2008?) - or it could be that things slowed down for the winter or any number of reasons. Then it's Christmas...and your anniversary...and your kid needs college tuition...and shoes etc. - That $150 might seem like $1500 or $15000 depending on how big a nut you need to crack.

So let's say things did get to the point where you couldn't pay the monthly rent on the software - you can't use it anymore. Period. No exceptions. You can't pull up any of the work you put time into before, do repeat orders or even run simulations to bid on new work. You're totally screwed until you give the pimp his fee. It's a real crime...not that far removed from stealing a man's tools out of his work truck. Imagine putting a credit card slot on the side of your ShopBot. Every month you need to put it in and charge $150 - or it won't turn on. Furthermore, they may make you pay 'back rent' - so $150 might be closer to $500 'to get reinstated' and be able to use your files. Does that sound good to anyone here? Is AutoDesk masquerading as the Black Hand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hand_(extortion)) now?

I will not endorse or recommend any subscription based software for CAD/CAM/CNC work. It is hard enough as it is to make a living doing this type of work - we don't need any more blood suckers tapping a vein on our already thin margins. I am sure the same type of thing is going on with Adobe and photographers. There are other options - support those who are aligned with your ideals and think about your fellow brothers in your craft before you enroll in one of these schemes. I guess what I'd really like to say is, "Hey everybody - stop being dumb and making decisions that sell your kids down the river or generally make the world a worse place." - but yanno...taking a stand and speaking the truth isn't en vogue these days & I didn't count on there being as many stupid people as there are running around making decisions.

-B

[JimDav]

Yes, Adobe put their software like Photoshop, Lightroom on the subscription plan several years ago.

[sawkerf]

I already own VCP. My question is, does it nest and toolpath template similarly to that of artcam insignia? As mentioned before, I have not had an opportunity to use VCP at all since purchasing due to time limitations. So if anyone has experience with this feature please comment, otherwise continue your discussion not related to the topic at hand...

[jerry_stanek]

Do you have any DXF files of what you are using just open them and use the nest and see what it does

[Brady Watson]

I already own VCP. My question is, does it nest and toolpath template similarly to that of artcam insignia? As mentioned before, I have not had an opportunity to use VCP at all since purchasing due to time limitations. So if anyone has experience with this feature please comment, otherwise continue your discussion not related to the topic at hand...

First, you can't title a thread, "ArtCAM is no more?" and not expect people to chime in about exactly that subject.

Second - Are you serious right now? You mean to tell me that you OWN BOTH but are too lazy to try your own comparison, using your type of parts with settings only pertinent to what YOU would use? Who on earth would be more qualified to demonstrate the differences between the two than yourself? Maybe you can only rotate the part 90 or 180 deg as a stipulation because of grain direction, maybe you do or don't permit parts inside of other parts during nesting, etc etc...Maybe one program does one aspect just a little bit better than the other - NOBODY can answer that but YOU. Furthermore - the chances that someone owns both Insignia AND VCP are super slim...and in that minority, those who use nesting on a regular basis is even less.

Here's a thought - maybe, YOU could do the comparison and then come back here and share with the group your findings. Export your group of parts as an EPS from Insignia and import them into VCP. Then actually try nesting with similar settings for nesting and toolpath templates. Then you'll know all the answers you need to make an informed decision - and you can come back here an let us all know what you found out. What's it going to take 10-15min tops?

-B

[bleeth]

I almost never use it so am not very quick with it, but I do have VCP 8. I just opened it up, started a new model (48 x 96) and saw that down in Offset and Layout category there is a nesting icon.
Given a few more minutes and a set of lines already done I could determine whether I liked the way it nested them. Given a few more and I could figure out if it was efficient to toolpath them.
What I can tell you is no-one can give you a comparison without even using the same version of software as you. That is because the individual features are also tweaked and modified over time. I always self nested by drag and drop or cut and paste from my part library but the other time killer can be efficient toolpathing over many sheets. When I finally decided to upgrade AC I didn't like the way it did certain things when bringing in vectors that were already on layers I liked and after working with Cust ser there they changed it and made my work much more efficient. The cost to me for that upgrade in useability was annual maintenance which came with a full annual upgrade. It made sense at that time by increasing my productivity when laying out and toolpathing the project. But then, as far as making large numbers of cabinet parts, it pretty much did everything I needed. Further maintenance wouldn't have made much sense, just like buying a new pick-up truck because the headlights had little LED's around them wouldn't. The improvement just doesn't make the truck do more! I am really sorry that Autodesk killed AC, but I also expect that since the 2015 I own has so much in it that I still need to learn (as far as relief work goes) and the support base of users is there and likely will continue for quite some time, I can handle it.
The two programs are similar enough that anyone adept at one can do basic work in the other in no time. There isn't much in cnc more basic than cabinet parts. Open up your VCP and try it.

[bob_reda]

At least there is a silver lining to this . The owners of vectric were employed by Delcam, left there and started vectric. They are responsible for some if not most of the software that was artcam and know the features and what they accomplished. I would expect that they would be bringing the good things to their product. I am not affliated with them in any way other than owning their software, I have been with them a long time, hosting their very first user conference. I know of no other company with the customer service they give, and they often throw in an upgrade for free every other year. Just saying, I can't imagine the amount of money that was robbed from Delcam, but i always look for the silever lining.

Bob

[Brian Moran]

They let all their ArtCAM staff go - all the people who were there for many, many years - so much knowledge and skill down the tubes

I'm happy to say that two of the most experienced ArtCAM developers let go by Autodesk have joined the team here at Vectric so hopefully the skills and knowledge won't be wasted.

Brian

[Chuck Keysor]

Thank you Bob for that piece of good news! Keep up the good work, and I look forward to every new upgrade! Chuck

[Brady Watson]

I'm happy to say that two of the most experienced ArtCAM developers let go by Autodesk have joined the team here at Vectric so hopefully the skills and knowledge won't be wasted.

Brian

Good to know, Brian.

Thanks again for making decisions that support small businesses!

-B

[curtiss]

Nearly everything is the US of A is becoming a “rent to never own” business. The competition is bought out and those few shareholders become millionaires, the software is then discarded and the prices later go up for whatever is left over.

I think some countries just buy one copy of software for their entire nation.... Some “seats of expensive software” are used in two locations, half a world apart, so they can be use nearly 24 hours a day

Nice some of the ArtCAM staff have been picked up by Vectric.

[EricSchimel]

I can't blame anyone that doesn't like "rental" software. I sit on both sides of the fence... For something like Photoshop that I use very infrequently the idea that I'd have to pay a subscription fee is a non starter for me. I guess you'd consider me a photoshop hobbyist, and they likely don't want my business anyway so I settle for little indie devs that make good alternatives for cheap, one time purchases.

For some of the software that I use to make money, the subscription fees to me are good. First, I don't have to lay down several thousand dollars up front, I can amortize that cost over a longer period of time. Also, some of the software subscriptions I have are really good about constant updates. I use some software that has major bug fixes and enhancements that come weekly. To me, that's much better than waiting years for an update. Most of the fees are so small compared to the cost of operating a machine that it only takes one job to more than pay for the subscription each month.

And for those that struggle during the slow times, many software companies let you pause the subscription whenever you want. I do agree on the free software. If you aren't paying, you're the product. When you're not paying, software vendors don't have fiduciary motivation to support you.

Also, let's not all forget that not all software companies are faceless corporations with ill intent. While people like us build stuff, there are plenty of people like is that make their living on making software. To make a living on software these days, with the demands of constantly running servers, support, and the demand for continual updates subscriptions often make a lot of business sense.

At the end of the day it's "to each their own" but remember buying software is just trading money for the ability to make more of it. Each of us can figure out what makes the most business sense when we make a software purchase.