New 4G controller box

[Tom Bachman]

OK, I received the "new" 4G controller box from Brady. Thank you Brady, it was extremely well packed and I have got it "put together", but I'm, kind of stumped as to where/which input-output terminals I am supposed to wire the limit switches to. Also, I have never been able to get my Z-Zero plate to work. It came with the machine but the guy I bought it from said he was never able to get it to work either.

Can/Will someone supply me with a wiring diagram of the input-output blocks so I can hook this up right? I thought I had a diagram, but can't seem to find it.

[jerry_stanek]

The prox switches are wired this way on mine the Brown wires from the X and Y go to the +24 volt lug the blue wires from X and Y go to ground and the black wire from X goes to number 2 input and the black wire from the X goes to 3 input. The Z plate the white wire goes to ground and the black wire goes to 1 input.

[Tom Bachman]

Jerry, that part of it, It doesn't have +24v lug....one shows +12V the other +5

https://i.imgur.com/iVSzHHe.jpg

[Tom Bachman]

I just realized I have all those wires on an input block....is that right? The red wires hooked to the +12 are the ones from the prox switches

[jerry_stanek]

I just checked my box and I see that I was looking at the wiring for a different unit. You may want to call shopbot and double check. I had 4 different control boxes on 3 different shopbots and they will help on any of them even if you are not the original owner.

[Brady Watson]

Tom - Glad you got it. As previously mentioned, you could have removed the input block from your 3G and put it right onto the 4G in the same input block area. No need to re-wire. Don't forget that ShopBot Docs (https://support.shopbottools.com/support/documentation) has manuals and guides for wiring etc.

In regards to your Zzero plate, there are 2 wires that are important (but a total of 3). Gnd & input 1. It is important, especially if you have a router that you have a good ground between the collet and the machine. Often times the ground will be broken from the brushes being worn - and there will be no continuity. This is why SB shipped an alligator clip that shares the same slot as the ground in the Wago connector near the router. You can always add a clip yourself. Input 1, sends out a 5v signal looking for ground. When it touches ground, input 1 lights up. A meter with continuity setting can be helpful tracking down where your ground isn't continuous/broken etc. The 3rd wire at the Wago near the router is for the probe. The version you have will determine what voltage it receives.

Be sure to run the TS command to set up your limit switches. Put the bit @ 0,0 and then run TS. Tell it you have limit switches and a Zzero plate. Make sure to click on 'I'm Done' at the end or it won't save the settings and you'll have to do it again.

You didn't mention what motors you have on your tool. Assuming your tool has 3.6:1 motors all around with 25T pinions on the XY and 20T on the Z, the default 4G unit values should be correct. If you have a different motor ratio you'll have to change your VU so the tool will go the correct distance.

Go back and read my notes for the other aspects of the installation regarding the e-stop, loading the SB USB drivers etc. You're gonna love it when you get it going.

Jerry - thanks for the attempt at helping but I'll take it from here.

-B

[Tom Bachman]

I'm closer....I think.....I've got the drivers loaded Took three times but they are there. I have communication with the control box. But now when I open SB3 I get an emergency stop error on input 4 and tells me to check it. No idea where that came from. Also, besides the flashing red light for the Estop on 4 I have, what looks like, an exclamation point on the #3 input light. Can't get past the Estop issue to see what is going on there.

Brady, I have PK296A1A SG3.6 motors on the x axis and PK29901AA motors on the Y and Z. The X motors have a larger pinion gear (don't remember how many teeth, while the Y and Z have the smaller pinions that came with the machine originally.

Still not sure whether I have the wires in the correct places or not. I've got a call in to Shopbot support, but had to leave a message, hopefully they will call back soon. I'm getting pretty frustrated.

[srwtlc]

I'm sure Brady will pop in here soon with answers to your questions, since he knows 'this' box, but I take it that you are upgrading an older machine which likely has a normal open E-stop. Go to VN in sb3 and check to see what 'Switch #4 Stop Type" is set for. If it's NC, change it to NO.

[Brady Watson]

Tom,
Scott is correct with the VN setting. Remember my instructions mentioning when you picked your machine to use the one that says "Old_Stop" in the name? This is because the old stop switches are normally open. Newer ones are normally closed. It expects a normally closed - and since it is normally open, it thinks the e-stop is ON. TO confirm this, just press the e-stop and see if that error goes away. If so, just change the VN setting and be sure to unlatch/turn off the e-stop when done. You may have to close and reopen SB3 when done for it to work.

Since your motors are different than the usual arrangement, you'll have to modify your unit values. Personally, I'd consider getting some good used motors to get some gear reduction on the ones that are direct drive...I have some here if interested. Certainly not trying to sell you anything, but it should have 3.6:1s at the very least on that tool.

In SB3, Type in VU
The Unit Values for the X are going to be the default 4G numbers @ 1833.465 (IF you are running 25T pinions)
Find the matching unit value for your motor/pinion tooth count combination here: Unit Value Chart (http://shopbotwiki.pbworks.com/w/page/11910908/Inch-unit-values) and enter them into the Y and Z fields in the VU fill in sheet.

In terms of the 'wires being the right place' the wiring is identical to the 3G with the exception of the 2 black wires for the limits. I don't know what limit switches you have so let's focus on just what you need to get the tool running - ONLY the e-stop needs to be connected in order for SB3 to move the tool. A short piece of wire in Input 4 and Gnd will emulate the e-stop...but at your own risk! This way you can drive around the tool....but the VU should be set first because the tool won't move the correct distances until you do.

E-stop:
Put 1 of the 2 wires into Input 4
Put the other wire in Gnd (doesn't matter which one)

Zzero plate:
Black goes to Input 1
Green or White goes to Gnd

For the limits, I don't know what version you have. I am going to assume that they are the early rectangular ones. They ran on 5v+, there are 3 wires for each limit:

Put Both Reds to 5v+
Put Both Greens to Gnd
Put the Black wire from the X axis prox switch in Input 2
Put the Black wire from the Y axis prox switch in Input 3
(3G and earlier systems did NOT have discrete limit switches. Both went to input 3 - but in order to run the newest homing routine, X needs to be in Input 2 and Y in Input 3)

That's it - there's no other wiring to do...

Be patient - there's no learning without at least a little chaos and confusion in life.

-B

[Tom Bachman]

Thanks, both of you, for helping me through this.

Brady, when I first opened up the setup, the "old" option wasn't there, or didn't know what I was looking at, so I chose 9648 PRT from the options that were presented, that one seemed most likely my machine. I'm assuming, maybe in error, that I can go into the VN command and change that.

I will also say that I don't think my limit switches have worked since I got the machine home and setup. the one on the X axis looks like it got caught on the carriage at some point (before I acquired the machine) and tore the wire loose and the switch itself appears to be broken. I've never tried to repair it (maybe stupid on my part).

So by looking at the picture I posted, does it appear that I have it wired correctly? Most of the wires go to the INPUT side....correct?

The Pinions on the X axis are 25 tooth with the 3.6 motors As for Motors I still have one more of the PK296 3.6, which I had planned on installing on the Y axis but had a problem with mounting it. I'll have to look at the pinions on the Y and Z axis to see what number of teeth are on them..... I also assume that my Y & Z motors are 1:1.

Funny, I was just telling my two granddaughters, that are spending the week us, that you continue to learn throughout your entire life....I'm getting quite an education this week. :)

[Tom Bachman]

IT'S ALIVE! Making the change to the VN took care of the error.
Ok, I have a moving machine. With the settings VU X as you thought and Y/Z 636.6198 it moves as it should.......well, almost. I also have a Z-Zero plate that WORKS! YES!

Now just one little issue.... The X axis isn't moving smoothly like it did before the change.... a little jumpy and grindy sounding. Not that it was perfectly smooth before, but it didn't jump and grind around like it does now. What would be your thoughts on this? Should I go ahead and acquire (from you maybe?) another 3.6 motor for the Z and replace it and the Y?

I was a bit wrong on the limit switch the one on the X is gone completely. Here's a picture of the one on the Y Axis. Probably need to get another one for the X.... ideas there?

https://i.imgur.com/tOCdEms.jpg

[Brady Watson]

Tom,
Yes - you are correct in assuming that you can invert the e-stop config using the VN command.

I would leave the prox switches disconnected to be sure nothing gets shorted out. In the meantime I can have a look - I may have a vintage set of prox switches that are new old stock.

Correct - ALL the connections are inputs. ZERO outputs.

FYI - stock config was 3.6:1 motor with 25T on XY axes and 20T on the Z. However there were MANY variations ranging from 1:1 to 10:1 motors and pinions from 18 to 36T. Just use the chart when you get a tooth count and motor ratio.

No doubt about that....the learning never stops!

-B

Edit: Check all motor connections and make sure nothing is lose. The main reasons these tools get messed up and don't run right is because the wiring is either sloppy or not with proper strain relief. I'll check back in the morning about the grinding thing...It could be your unit values are not correct. Use a tape and check distances. If they are off, then the UV for that axis isn't right.

[Tom Bachman]

It looks as though all the measurements are correct, X and Y anyway. I didn't check the Z, but will tomorrow.

[coryatjohn]

IT'S ALIVE! Making the change to the VN took care of the error.
Ok, I have a moving machine. With the settings VU X as you thought and Y/Z 636.6198 it moves as it should.......well, almost. I also have a Z-Zero plate that WORKS! YES!

Now just one little issue.... The X axis isn't moving smoothly like it did before the change.... a little jumpy and grindy sounding. Not that it was perfectly smooth before, but it didn't jump and grind around like it does now. What would be your thoughts on this? Should I go ahead and acquire (from you maybe?) another 3.6 motor for the Z and replace it and the Y?

I was a bit wrong on the limit switch the one on the X is gone completely. Here's a picture of the one on the Y Axis. Probably need to get another one for the X.... ideas there?

https://i.imgur.com/tOCdEms.jpg

I look at that picture and come to the conclusion that all the time I spend cleaning really is worth it! My machine still looks brand new after five years.

[Brady Watson]

I look at that picture and come to the conclusion that all the time I spend cleaning really is worth it! My machine still looks brand new after five years.

John - Agreed. The powdercoating on these machines is really good. My 17 year old tool still looks good after all these years. Just vacuuming it off with a fuzzy brush gets most of the stuff off - mineral spirits or denatured (not acetone or MEK!) for grease, then automotive instant detailer on a microfiber cloth (it has a little wax in it) - makes the whole machine shine like new. There's no reason not to wipe the machine down at least a few times a year. It literally just takes minutes to do & you feel proud when you're done....but having visited hundreds of shops over the years as a tech, most are never cleaned and this makes maintenance difficult to do. Take care of your tools and they will take care of you!

-B

[Tom Bachman]

Sorry, I actually try to keep my machine as clean as I can. And no, it doesn't look brand new, but I bought it a little over a year ago and I don't think it was well cared for before. Not much I can do about that.

[Brady Watson]

Tom - how's it going?

-B

[Tom Bachman]

Haven't gotten out there to check on things yet....been busy doing a few other things. Headed out pretty quick.

[Tom Bachman]

Ok, the measurements are correct. All the connections are good and tight, but I did notice that the Z motor is "warm" without even running the axis...ok I ran it up 3" and back down to 1". Thinking maybe that motor has an issue? Beings I have one more of the PK296 3.6 motors left, swapping it out with the Y and take the Y and put it on Z. I can't figure out how to mount the 296 motor on the Z as it needs to bolt from the back side. I'm sure you have seen this and have some sort of work around.

[Brady Watson]

I would run 3.6's all around for sure. Warm is fine with steppers although most with this config run cool. Not sure about that 1:1 motor though.

You need to remove the 3/8" stop bolt from the back side of the Z tower, the release the springs. Then you can pull the entire t-rail with router still attached out the bottom to get to the motor bolts. You can't get it out the top without removing the lower spring perch and springs. If they are the original 'constant force' flat springs, it's more involved. Coil springs are easier to remove/install. Take a piece of house electrical wire and twist up a loop for releasing and replacing the springs.

Keep in mind that depending on how old this machine is, you might have to drill some holes to get the 3.6:1 motor onto the Z tower because it has a different hole pattern than the 1:1. Play around...you can open up a can of worms messing with the V-rollers to get the gears lashed in/meshing properly - know off the bat that getting the lash right without messing with the v-rollers means installing and removing the t-rail until the gears mesh the proper way. Too tight and you'll kill the t-rail too loose and you'll have a sloppy axis. It ain't rocket science...but it's important to pay attention and use your mechanical skills here..and it's worth it because 1:1 is not correct for this machine. You will not have the torque you need for cutting nor the level of resolution needed for decent 3D or v-carving.

-B

[curtiss]

Tom, Do you have a "Retired sign" for your Kansas shop ???

Always a good idea. looks something like ..

RETIRED

Don't want to. Don't need to.

Can't make me.

[Tom Bachman]

Been retired for a long time....everyday I get re-tired, from all the work I try to get done. Seems I'm busier now than when I was "working".

I did get the 3.6 motor on the Y axis yesterday....Didn't take me too long to remember why I didn't put it on when I did the X motors. I spent all day redesigning the motor mount and then making it out of 1/4" aluminum plate. If I am going to do the Z I'll have to find another motor.

The Z axis is still jumpy, not smooth running up and down. It has something to do with the new control box, as it didn't do this with the old box.

I have to do church stuff all day today, so won't have time to look it until tomorrow.

[Tom Bachman]

Ok, I got it running this afternoon....much faster than before. You don't really notice the Z jumping around as it cuts, seems to cut very smoothly.

[Brady Watson]

Glad you got it going.

Keep in mind that just like a car you add power to, there is now more stress on the steel members of the machine - particularly the X car and gantry. It is possible to rack the gantry if you hit something on one side a lot easier than your old control box. I wound up getting my original PRT gantry perfectly square, after ditching the unistrut and adding 3/16" wall 2.5 x 1.5 steel rectangle, and welded the corners and tubing to the 3x3 bulkheads. After that it was rock solid.

I would also advise: Cleaning the machine, lubing the racks, adjusting all v-roller bearings and shimming where necessary (vertical Y car v-bearings for height) - faster speeds and more power mean things will wear funny if they are not properly adjusted to begin with. Most don't know any better until their skills improve and they scrutinize their cut quality only to come back to it being the machine is out somewhere.

Good luck!
-B

[Tom Bachman]

Well, I will check out the machine and adjust as needed. Thanks Brady.

[Tom Bachman]

OK, I ran the machine on a couple files and it ran fine. It sat overnight and I came out the next day and tried to move it from one end of the table to the other and the X started jumping around...like off the rollers. It is almost like the X2 motor isn't getting a signal all the time. I released the X2 motor (pinion from rack) and dry run it around the table and it seems to be moving smoothly. Hook it back up and it's like X2 can't keep up with X1...... ??????

I plan on going to the control box and switching the X1 and X2 leads to check to see if the X2 motor still reacts funny....if so, I assume that I lost that motor, if not it would make me think something is going on with the driver....... am I thinking on the right track?

[curtiss]

Changing drivers would seem like a good way to check things.

Are your x rails parallel or causing a bind ?

Years ago setting up, I made a large T-square with a shallow groove at the top of the T for one X rail and taped a micrometer to the other end where I could use the “depth gauge” to see if the rails were parallel.

If the x rails are straight and parallel, it is difficult for the y-car to not run true or bind up.

[Brady Watson]

Engage the motors in the rack. Change the move speed to 1 for XY. With the gantry down near X0, use keypad mode and the keyboard to move the tool towards you while you press the arrow key. Do this on each side. If one is stronger than the other - this should tell you where to look.

Merely dropping the motors and spinning them tells you little. These motors have 2 coils. It will spin with not much torque with only 1 coil working.

If there is a broken wire - you'll need to track it down - or a loose wire in a motor connector. I didn't ship this with motors or wiring & tested the box thoroughly so keep that in mind. If it proves out that the driver is intermittent/weak/defective - Geckodrive will warranty repair it. You have to contact them directly if that winds up being the case.

There is a small possibility that one of the terminal screws on the Gecko to the 4G board loosened during transit. You can loosen and reseat before pointing fingers at the drive.

-B

[bleeth]

Tom: Don't forget to never push your gantry with no power and motors plugged in except VERY slowly as this will blow out a driver due to electrical feedback from the motors acting as dynamos.

[Tom Bachman]

Thanks guys, I was busy building cabinet doors all day today. I might go out and do some playing tomorrow. I haven't moved the gantry with the power off, so I don't think that's the problem Also nothing has changed on the x rails so I doubt seriously they are out of adjustment. I will do some checking and let you all know.

[Tom Bachman]

Well, I gave up on the 4g box. I couldn't figure out the jerky motion, so I reinstalled the 3.4.27 software, removed the 4g box and put the old controller back on. Now she runs like she did before my foray into 4g, smooth movements again.

I guess I'll probably just sell the 4g controller.