Composite Wood?

[richahrens]

I'm starting sign carving as a part of my business. I recently saw a company stating they use a "waterproof wood composite that won't absorb water and will not rot." So I'm wondering other than teak, fir and mahogany what this material might be, where you are buying it and what your experience is with its performance. Am I correct in assuming that it also might dull our cutting bits less slowly?

Thanks.

[SteveNelson46]

I'm starting sign carving as a part of my business. I recently saw a company stating they use a "waterproof wood composite that won't absorb water and will not rot." So I'm wondering other than teak, fir and mahogany what this material might be, where you are buying it and what your experience is with its performance. Am I correct in assuming that it also might dull our cutting bits less slowly?

Thanks.

Maybe Color-Core HDPE? Pricey but good stuff.

[EricSchimel]

Take a look at HDU and PVC materials. They can be used for dimensional signs. Both materials carve great and when treated properly will last a very long time.

[Chuck Keysor]

Rich, based on your description, I would guess you may be looking at something like Miratec.
https://www.miratectrim.com/miratec-trim?gclid=Cj0KCQjw3ebdBRC1ARIsAD8U0V6L8VVRkGPkztf 94wgU0zQkMirtXhQjSWhg4dCO3QXBN8pqaj7DbpAaAvr_EALw_ wcB#sizes
From what I see, it's maximum available width is 16 inches.

I once tried some for trim, without CNC machining it. Because it seemed like inherently flimsy material (being shredded fibers and glue), I never tested it out for CNC machining.

Chuck

[steve_g]

http://www.extira.com/

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?23589-temporary-head-stone&highlight=extira


I can’t recommend this product for long term signage… our experience is a couple of years at best!

SG

[richahrens]

Interesting. Thanks for the replies. I'm kind of a purist but favor a wood composite by far over PVC if given a choice. I'd expect PVC to be flimsy but there are likely lots of products out there I've never encountered. I see extira is made by Jeld Wen and many of their products are at my local lumber yard. I'll ask if they can get it. With a ten year warranty it must be a decent candidate. I've never heard of HDU. I was hoping there was a simple "go to" as an industry standard!

[steve_g]

Rich…

A little history may be in order…
There was a time when the go-to material for outdoor signage was Red wood… it was a fantastic material, and still is if your customer is willing to pay!

In an effort to be competitive and to use materials available locally, many other woods were tried… western cedar works for some applications, white oak if you maintain the finish regularly and even some exotics available in limited quantities and areas can have their use!

It seemed like the sign makers prayers were answered when HDU came along! High Density Urethane foam became available in sizes that didn’t require glue-ups, was light weight and easy to handle and machined well! The perfect sign material… until the first hail storm!

PVC has been around awhile… its reputation was nearly ruined by attempts to make it lighter and less expensive… the foamed PVC’s like Sintra© and others work well for interior, well supported lettering, but not at all for dimensional letters. Its interior is open cell and a completely different texture from the surface skin. Colors fade with UV exposure and it’s available in very limited thicknesses.

Some of us have rediscovered solid type 1 mechanical grade PVC. It’s consistent in density, UV stable and readily available at plastic supply houses and sign supply dealers. It’s expensive. My tendency, lately, has been to mechanically fasten 3D PVC letters to a western cedar background. Others will fabricate the entire sign from PVC. It only comes in white or black but paints well with any paint intended for plastics. PVC solvent welds well, but plumbers glues aren’t ideal for this application… some like a PVC glue made by Gorilla.

I’m sure my limited experience has caused me to omit some history and I welcome input by others!

SG

[pro70z28]

Here's an example of HDU. Just finished painting it yesterday. I'm trying to get away from HDU, but this particular customer insisted on HDU as it is going right next to another HDU sign and he was set on keeping the same material. This one is also 106" wide, again to match the other sign, so I had to join a piece on the end. My CNC is 48x96. I spliced it at the logo on the left. Unless you know what you're looking for and look real close, it isn't noticeable, especially in the area where it will be installed.

[GeneMpls]

This is a 4x10 foot sign I made a couple years ago- last year we had a nasty hail storm and you see the damage done- the sign was done using Duma HDU [Corafoam], except for the letter 'C' which was another brand I wanted to use up. The sign was built on an aluminum tube backbone and then a sheet of Composite alum/plastic, the white was 1" PVC. The hail pounded out the windows on the West side [where the sign is] and did 3 million dollars in my homeowners association alone. They are still fixing storm damage here. It is 12' up, too far for an oldphart, so I have not looked really closely but if it was not for the 'C' I would just repaint it.
Just for reference. Gene

32115

[richahrens]

Thanks, for this info everyone! I need to learn this stuff from veteran builders like yourselves.

Being in New England, my intention is to make "traditional" carved signs but wood is indeed dearly priced. I was at Chatham Carved Sign on Cape Cod last week and was shocked at the prices they get for small, house numbers which I can easily make already on my ShopBot Buddy. They are the ones who say they use the composite I referenced above so it seemed to a neophyte that I should research and use the same.

Please keep the info coming. This week I got some One Shot paint to use on my first pieces. The above specs they prime twice and put on three coats.

[GeneMpls]

One shot once had a very good reputation but most sign people will not touch the modern version.

[pro70z28]

One shot once had a very good reputation but most sign people will not touch the modern version.


That's the first I've heard of that. I've been in the sign business for over 35 years. Granted, I don't have but a couple hanger on customers that prefer paint to vinyl, but I still get one coat coverage and can drag the brush a long way on a load of paint.

[richahrens]

That's the first I've heard of that. I've been in the sign business for over 35 years. Granted, I don't have but a couple hanger on customers that prefer paint to vinyl, but I still get one coat coverage and can drag the brush a long way on a load of paint.

Are you saying you only use one coat? I see above that you brush which is my preference. Do you sand finely afterward? Do you put any kind of protecting coat over it at the end?

[RossMosh]

They're likely using extira or medex MDF. Extira is actually rated for exterior use. Medex is essentially designed to build cabinets out in areas where moisture is a concern. It's most likely they use Extira. It's likely they use these materials because the sheet cost is way less than HDU or PVC.

There are advantages and disadvantages for every material. Extira happens to be heavy and a fairly nasty product. But it's relatively cheap and when finished properly should last a decent amount of time.

PVC is more expensive. It cuts well and finishes well. It can also take a screw or a stud. The downsides are the interior is "grainy" and not exactly consistent. It also can thermally expand and contract a decent bit.

HDU is even more expensive. It's benefit is it's weight and ability to cut and finish well. Unlike PVC, if you buy good stuff, the structure is tight and consistent. The downsides is the stuff is foam. It has no grain structure which means screwing or bolting into it doesn't work. It requires frame work to keep straight and simply to hang the sign properly.

Again, each of these materials have their place. Each of these materials are used daily by sign makers across the world. You just have to find what you like working with.

[GeneMpls]

That's the first I've heard of that. I've been in the sign business for over 35 years. Granted, I don't have but a couple hanger on customers that prefer paint to vinyl, but I still get one coat coverage and can drag the brush a long way on a load of paint.

I am not a painter but frequent several boards [3D sign forum, Signs101 and Letterville]- my understanding is that when they had to remove lead as a component that the product really suffered. The old sign painters on the Letterhead board use paint from 30 years ago if they can get it or they have a few modern paints that work for them. I am reporting what I have heard repeatedly... if I am asked to go before a Senate committee... I will be hard to find.

[pro70z28]

Yea, like I was saying I don't use it nearly as often as I used to, so I may not notice the issues they are referring to. I've only used it for lettering & pin striping and it seems to still work o.k.

[pro70z28]

Are you saying you only use one coat? I see above that you brush which is my preference. Do you sand finely afterward? Do you put any kind of protecting coat over it at the end?


Yes, brushed, one coat, no protective coat over the lettering.

[joe]

Thats right, One Shot is as good as ever. With a brush, it covers like a dream. I do use their hardener (4007) which gives an extra sheen and longer life. One Shot is still the Pin Stripers choice used to decorate cycles and hot-rods all across the country.

I'm glad the lead is gone.

Joe

[joe]

Lets not forget Trupan!
It's a neat material for interior signs and letters. If you have a scrap or two try putting it a bucket of water for a day or two. Unlike most composite materials is doesn't swell up and fall apart. With a little shellac it becomes weather resistant. I'm not suggesting it for exterior use but what a nice, cheap, friendly product to use.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32131&stc=1

[richahrens]

Pro70z28,

Thanks for that reply. I notice the black covers well. For lettering my first signs I have been trying the metallic gold which is pretty nice except it takes two coats to cover. I'm finding even with a steady hand it is easiest to brush in the v carved letters with a small amount of slop and then go back with a fine brush and black paint to neaten up the edges. I'm wondering how many folks actually use gold leaf and whether it's an easier option or more challenging than the One Shot gold.

Rich

[joe]

Richard,

My hats off to you for venturing into the sign trade. It's been my life for thirty plus years.

There isn't a gold paint that will reflect like the real thing. One Shot does have a good option is's known as "Brass". Much better than their Gold. Buy it in half pint quanity.

Applying 23K takes some time to learn. For a gold size, I'd suggest One Shot Ivory. It has to dry three or four hours prior to application of gold.

Good luck.

Joe

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32138&stc=1
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32137&stc=1

[richahrens]

Joe,

Thanks a bunch for the info and for all you post here on the forum. I appreciate the knowledge you so willingly share. Signs have always had an appeal to me. I majored in graphic arts in college and being a New Englander I've always loved wood carved signs. I just ran into a big stash of Butternut and am told it carves nicely. Do you have experience with it?

[mdebruce]

Which Corafoam did you use that stood up to the hail?..I see several grades.

Mark


This is a 4x10 foot sign I made a couple years ago- last year we had a nasty hail storm and you see the damage done- the sign was done using Duma HDU [Corafoam], except for the letter 'C' which was another brand I wanted to use up. The sign was built on an aluminum tube backbone and then a sheet of Composite alum/plastic, the white was 1" PVC. The hail pounded out the windows on the West side [where the sign is] and did 3 million dollars in my homeowners association alone. They are still fixing storm damage here. It is 12' up, too far for an oldphart, so I have not looked really closely but if it was not for the 'C' I would just repaint it.
Just for reference. Gene

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32115&stc=1

[joe]

We don't use any HDU. I don't recommend it at any poundage.
The hail damage on this sign could be easily repaired but the real issue would be a total repaint. At least it isn't made from EPS FOAM.

[mdebruce]

Thanks Joe you do great work!! I'm learning what I can!
However I was wondering about Gene's answer. I see his sign and all but the one letter which was made of different grade seemed to hold up fairly well and so wondered what grade he used that held up? I'm assuming a heavier grade? Going to make some signage I hope for my son-in-law's new Doctor practice... IF I CAN!!!! You guys amaze me.
All I've worked with so far is wood.
Mark

[GeneMpls]

Joe: I am a piker but I have progressed beyond EPS:D. What would a professional have used for this sign? Thanks

mdebruce: it was all 15 pound density but different brands are very different. This was a he!! of a hailstorm BTW, I replaced all the windows on that side of the building and my house a couple miles away has been re-sided and re-roofed.