Problems with 3.5.3 Control Software

[andyb]

I’m having a problem with the 3.5.3 control software where it freezes up when it performs it's first move or jog command. I've been running 3.5.3 for awhile and the problem is sporadic. I have to end the task before I can do anything. I’ve reinstalled it and updated the firmware several times. I've deleted the Shopbot.ini. I've even changed the USB port to see if that was the problem. It’s got to the point that I went back to 3.4.27 and everything is working fine. I’m running a PRTAlpha with a spindle.

This PC is for controlling the Shopbot only. It doesn’t have any other software installed and all Windows features are turned off.

Anybody else having a problem? Anybody got anything that I can try that I have't thought of?

Andy B.

[paco]

I noticed something similar when I tried the V.Fil setting to 8 (instead of default value A) on the Alpha driver... have you made the change yourself? When I revert to default setting, it solve the problem. I cannot say that it's related though... I know some people have made the change with only improvements.

[dvanr]

I have experienced similar , but not on a first move or jog. For me at least, lock up occurs randomly if a USB flash drive is in the computer. The only way out is to CTRl/Alt/Del and restart. Never have had the problem without the USB flashdrive.

Paco , that seems really odd about your Vfil setting. I would have expected that part of the motor control to be totally independent of the firmware. I expected that Vfil would only be part of the hybrid feedback system between controller and steppers.

Anybody else? More clues may help out the guys in the lab.

D

[paco]

Dick,

I recently "found" that if I removed the USB key by just pulling it out WITHOUT "Safely remove" it first (Task bar icon) it will create a problem with SB 3.5.3; disconnect will occur almost all the time. If I "Safely remove" the key first, it won't loose connection. Check it out.

About the V.Fil setting; as wrote, I'm not sure at all it's related to the hang. It just happen when I attempt to try the new setting and when I revert the setting the problem was "solved"... I will try to change the V.Fil again on my own personal project... when I get a chance.

Andy, try to track back any changes or steps prior to the hang of SB 3.5.3; think computer, think stupid...! I search a lot before noticing the the USB key removal issue... only SB3 complain about this habit that I have.

[propellers]

I have had similar problems, The SB will just stops at ramdom times and places. The clock still runs but I have to CTRL/ALT/DEL to stop the SB program. I have not had a flash drive installed. Tried different ports, looked at wiring, tried a Laptop. All suggestions from Tech. service tried. This happens during probing, running a program, Moving/Jogging manual. I am using a 1.6 gig AMD processor and the machine is dedicated only to the SB. I have tried everything that has been mentioned above.

[Brady Watson]

USB keys from Insignia, Pro or others WILL cause connection issues.

Regardless of whether you have a dongle on the machine or not (no dongle software should be on the SB3 computer...PW or VCP is fine) - There have been problems with v1.1 USB ports and SB3 hanging. It isn't an all across the board condition, but I have experienced unexplained locking of SB3 & XP Pro (sometimes one or the other), using the motherboard USB 1.1 port. Only after installing a USB 2.0 PCI USB card did all of these problems go away...AND communication speed & efficiency went way up as well. Not sure if this is your issue or not, but I figured I mention it. You may want to check to see if there are updated drives for your USB bridge on the motherboard, depending on what hardware you are running.

You shouldn't have any issues with the V.Fil setting on the Alpha drivers, provided that you do not exceed the 8 setting.

-B

[paco]

Along with all the above mentioned, I have had lost of connection with SB3 completely ignoring the problem with grounding/static electricity. This is like the tool stop everything but the DRO keep reading the code. If SB3 was then stopped (S key), I was on a sort of preview mode as I couldn't move the tool but it was thinking it was (DRO display was changing)...
On my case, the table frame was not ground (only the gantry and above) and vacuuming around the tool while it was running with static arcing on the table frame as caused this. In every such case, I had to reboot SB3 and turn off/on the control box.

The USB key issue I mentioned above is not related to software dongle monitoring though this one is as relevant then the one I wrote about. The one I recently experience seem to be related to only 3.5.*. The USB key is used to transfer file only but rather than remove it with the 'Safe Removal' utility found on the task bar, I was pulling the key right away. This cause SB3.5.* to loose connection with the control box. It may be system specific; I have never heard about this and Ted was just as surprised as me. Something with the Canadian air or something...

All in all, make sure your homing system is accurate and wrote down the TBC offset at each file run... so in any case, you,ll be back at work promptly.

Bot on!

[andyb]

About 2 minutes after I posted the message I got an email from another Botter that is having the same problem and others after he installed 3.5.3. He said, his production has been down for a few weeks because of the problem. He said that he called SB support and was told that he needs to be using USB v2 ports as Brady states above. His system is new enough that his USB ports should be v2. (I have to check the specs on the board for my system, it’s an older ASUS board.. I’m not sure if the USB ports are v2 or v1.1.) Anyway, I helped him find 3.4.27 on the SB website which he did know was out there, he downloaded and installed it. He’s back working fine.

Paco, I haven’t changed the V.Fil setting but after reading Brady’s post in another tread I’m going to see what mine are set at and change them to 8.

Dick, I do use a thumb drive to move my files between my two systems but the problem happens if the thumb drive is connected or not.

I have a laptop that I'm working on for someone that has USB v2 ports. I'f I have time before I have to give it back to him I am going to try and test it.

Andy B.

[andyb]

Paco,
You say that the default value of your V.Fil setting was "A"? Mine was set to "0". Wonder why that is?

For anyone wondering about the topic, heres a link to the tread that Brady is talking about changing the V.Fil setting. http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=26&post=52650#POST52650


Brady, thanks for the info. I'll see how it works for me.

Andy B.

[propellers]

I installed the USB V2 card and I still get a shutdown. If I just restart SB after a CTL/ALT/DEL I will have immediate reoccurance, If I shutoff the control box for a minute or more the SB may run for hours before I have another problem. Rebooting the PC seems to have zero affect so I feel the problem is SB and not my 1.6 AMD processor. My equipment seems to shutdown with or without a memory stick installed. Tried different ports no difference.

[srwtlc]

Possible control box heat issues? Try a fan aimed at the control box fins as a test.

[andyb]

Scott, My bot had only been on for about 45 minutes before I started having the problem. I had just finished resurfacing my table and started to run another file and then total lockup. If it was a heat problem then I would think that I would have the problem with 3.4.27 but everything is running fine.

Andy B.

[srwtlc]

Andy,

Yeah, your's sounds different. I was thinking of Lonnie's, Sorry.

I haven't experienced the problems that you have had and my computer has a lot more going on than yours.

[richards]

Andy,
I've rolled back to 3.4.27 also. My PRT-Alpha with 3hp spindle runs that version perfectly. For the last three days, outside temperature is 100F. Inside the shop it pegged the thermometer at 110F. I have had to change my cutting files a little to keep the spindle temperature within its specified range (lighter passes, shallower cuts). My Alpha has the original box without cooling fins, but I use a 20" fan that blows constantly on the box (and on me). That fan and a drink of water every few minutes keeps me semi-conscious.

The job I had to get out was routing AZEK for a show-case house. At those temperatures, the AZEK reminded me more of putty than a wood-like product, but it cut pretty good and the Shopbot never glitched during the 30 hours that the job took.

Version 3.5.3 had some unexplainable glitches, but 3.4.27 works for me.

[andyb]

Hey, just wanted to follow-up. Run two jobs today using 3.4.27 without any problems.

Also, made the V.Fil change to 8 and WOW!!! My motors never ran so quiet and cool. My cuts are smoother too.

Andy B.

[Gary Campbell]

Brady... You said on July 5 "(no dongle software should be on the SB3 computer...PW or VCP is fine)", to clarify...no software, Insignia or Pro, should be on the machine, or no software's DONGLE should be in the machine? Can the software be installed, closed and the dongle removed? Thanks Gary

[jeffreymcgrew]

Gary: I've had no trouble having the SOFTWARE installed on the controlling computer. But having the USB dongle plugged into it causes trouble.

As a matter of fact, I had some really bad trouble a while back with connection issues. You really don't want anything else on the USB bus that the Shopbot is running off of in general, Dongle or not. It's also best to shut off ANYTHING else that's running software-wise. Virus scanners, system utiltlies / updaters, etc. running in the background can cause problems sometimes too. It's really best to just get an old junker computer that's decent enough to run your Bot off of (USB2 and a PIII or better has been good enough for us so far) and just run the control software and nothing else on it. Then take your nicer computer you set jobs up on and get it out of the shop! ;-)

And I don't have an Alpha, just a PRT with a 4G, and the new software has been great for us so far for what it's worth...

[Gary Campbell]

Thanks Jeffrey.. The Shop computer is a resurrected media computer from the house... 3.0 Ghtz dual pentium ATX board with a gig of ram. No worries there... I have made sure no flash drive is in any port, but am also having the shut down when first jogging or moving blues. I am thinking about buying A/C Insignia.or maybe pro, but the dongle thing may kill the deal. My Son will do his thing with Turbo Cad & VCPro... I am leaning towards ArtCAM.
Gary

[ed_lang]

Don't forget the sure fire way to fix so many Windows problems is to format and reload the OS. Then only install what you need on the computer.

Things will be faster and smoother.

[Brady Watson]

Gary,
No software that requires a dongle should be used on the computer running SB3. Even though the software isn't running, the sentinel drivers continuously keep looking for the dongle. It's not the best thing to be happening with a Windows-based CNC controller (SB3).

-B

[richards]

Windows XP is not a 'real-time operating system'. Although it does a fairly good job of handling 'human interfaces' - keyboard, mouse, etc., it wasn't designed to allow 'real-time' events to be handled properly. Others have written about removing unneeded features from Windows. I've done that on my control computer, using the guide that Gerald Dorrington posted on the forum awhile back. However, I can't locate that post or the hard copy that I printed out. Maybe somebody else has the reference.

Keep in mind that Windows is a multi-tasking operating system that was designed to allow multiple tasks to run at the same time. Normally, each task gets a slice of time to do something, and then each other task gets a slice of time until each of the tasks have been serviced in a round-robin fashion. Depending on how the tasks were written (programmed), they may take more than their share of time to handle critical portions of their code. In the case of a CNC controller, that can cause all kinds of problems. A stepper motor controller needs to receive step pulses at exact intervals to keep the motor(s) running smoothly and accurately. If another program 'interrupts' the CNC control program to do its thing, the stepper motors will have problems running properly.

The solution is to NOT run any other program on the control computer. Keep it dedicated to running the Shopbot. And, as others have suggested, remove all programs and hardware from the control computer that aren't required to run the Shopbot.

[richards]

Here's the link to the optimisation file that Gerald Dorrington posted. The file is the third link from the bottom under the topic: Optimise XP for Mach

http://www.artsoftcontrols.com/artsoft/downloads/downloads.htm

Gerald just emailed the link to me. (Thanks Gerald!)

[Gary Campbell]

Mike, Brady & anyone that knows... check out Black Vipers page on using the M$ services to disable many of the backround things in XP.
http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm
Maybe a "ShopBot" list can be posted. When I used to play with PC performance.. most of what he says works.
Gary

[Brady Watson]

Thanks for the tip, Gary. I'll check it out.

-B

[richards]

Gary,
I've browsed BlackViper, and it looks pretty good; however, I get the feeling that it expects the average computer user to know a lot more than should be expected. What do you think?

[paco]

Thanks for the link Gary! Look like good stuff...

Mike, the document you linked would a first step before anything else; this is the basic to an clean and lean Win XP system. The link Gary provide is more advance and it should be read throughly first for a good understanding. It look like the author is somewhat prudent and suggest steps that "ensure" easy going back the steps...

[Gary Campbell]

Mike, Paco, Brady, et al...
the BV site has all good stuff, but what would really help is if someone that knew the stuff could look down the barebones XP Pro list and see if the SB3 software would need any of the services that are set to be disabled. There is usually a fairly good explanation of what the services actually do, but I dont have a clue what SB3 is looking for. I am willing tho to be the test mule.
Gary

[paco]

I've just configure a profile as 'Power user' from the VB configurations and so far it run SB3 but I won't be cutting until tomorrow... I just move the tool around with the K mode... more later... man what a drop; down to 79MB or RAM used without SB3!

[Brady Watson]

While it's a great idea to go 'lean & mean" with XP Pro, quite frankly I've never had a problem with the OS affecting SB3. I have had problems with 'QuackTime' running in the background...not sure how it slipped into the program list, but it's gone now. On the hardware level I've had problems with the 1.1 USB drivers on my otherwise rock solid Shuttle motherboard...a 2.0 PCI card fixed that. I suppose the BEST way to setup XP would be to load it yourself...in other words, wipe the HD and install a fresh copy of XP Pro without all of the Gateway/Dell/Compaq preloaded foo-foo they put on new machines today (probably to just create confusion for new people)...This is why I build my own from scratch.

A quick glance at the Task Manager will tell you what processes are running. QuickTime and Acrobat are known to linger in the task list as well as affect SB3 while running. Rather than go crazy with messing with the registry etc, just keep an eye on what is running. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

....oh and for Pete's sake people, buy more RAM...it's cheap!

-B

[jeffreymcgrew]

another two tips:

1. Even if you don't have anything plugged into a USB port (other than the 'Bot) doesn't mean that the USB port isn't still being shared in some way. We had a lot of trouble when we swapped to a 4G upgrade with this one. The laptop we were using was USB 2, but to cut corners an internal device (a webcam) was sharing the same USB bus that the exterior plugs were, and this was causing some major stalling. We finally tracked this down with some help from Shopbot, and once disabling that device in the hardware settings it's been smooth sailing. Don't assume that just because you don't have anything plugged into a USB port that they aren't still being shared! Go into the Device Manager, and change the view to 'View by connection' and see what's hooked to the USB buses. You might be surprised by something. Lots of computer makers these days roll things into the USB for it's cheaper to do it that way.

2. We've been using something called 'Windows Tune-up Utilities 2007' for a while now. It's a pretty easy to use regersty cleaner, systems manager, and more, that's let us clean and tune our Windows systems to run much better and to keep them that way. Windows over time can get slow and problematic, and you either need to use utilities to keep it in line or you need to reinstall it every other year or so...

[andyb]

OK, lets revisit this again. I send the info below to SB support but wanted to see if you guys have any suggests.

I just upgraded my computer (see specs below) that controls my SB. I installed 3.5.5 of the control software and I'm getting the error "Missing Comm Return. Hit OK to attempt to Continue." I'm running my warm-up file that starts the spindle, its pauses for 900 seconds and then turns the spindle off. The spindle stops but the file never finishes. As soon as I move the mouse the error pops up. I had the same problem on my old 1.0 Ghz computer and was hoping the new computer would resolve the problem. The USB ports on the old computer were v1.1. I'm sure these are v2.0. I ran the speed test, Effective Transmission Rate is 34.05449, Transmission Efficiency is 73.9.

My Bot is an AlphaPRT96. I'm running a spindle.

Pentuim 4 CPU 2.80 Ghz
512 MB Ram
Windows XP Pro SP2

So do you guys have any suggestions?

[Gary Campbell]

Andy..
After getting all my grounding in order, I still had some comm errors and a few erroneous stop hits. My Trans. Eff was 73.5. My USB ports are 2.0. I took Brady's advice and installed the USB 2.0 hub between the Computer & control box and they are all gone. My new Trans. Eff. only went up to 84.7 but troubles are gone.

Pentium 5 3.0Ghtz. Duo
2 Gigs Ram
XP Pro SP2
Black VIper Power User Configuration
Gary

[Gary Campbell]

Andy..
One more thing. Where do you store the Z Zero plate? is the input 1 light on when not in use? Mine would flicker when moving. There is no good reason that this input should affect anything, but check it out. I didnt change my location... just put in a bumper to stop the flicker.
Gary

[andyb]

Gary,
I'll try a USB 2.0 hub tomorrow. I have been running 3.4.27 without any problems. My Z-Zero plate is in the holder that Shopbot supplies. Everything seems OK with it. I'm a computer guy by trade, I just tried everything that I can think of except for the 2.0 hub to fix the problem. I hate it when I stumped.

Andy B.

[knight_toolworks]

frustrating when stuff happens. here I can't get my great super zzero to run in 3.5 but it runs fine in 3.4

[paul_z]

Gary,

I may be overly cautious, but I always "hook" the Z Zero leads together when not in use. It should provide some protection to the input discrete against static discharge.

Paul Z

[Gary Campbell]

Paul..
Thats a good idea. either contact or not, but not intermittent.
Gary

[andyb]

After reformatting the hard drive and reinstalling XP on my old computer. Taking XP down to the bare minimum to run. Even installing a faster PC with USB 2.0 port on the board and numerous other troubleshooting steps… As my Mama would say "Well I'll be". I connected a USB 2.0 hub and so far so good. The Comm error went away on my warm-up routine and I air cut 3 files. No problems whatsoever. Now comes the real test, actually cutting a file. I have some samples to cut for a customer.

Thanks Gary for pointing out Brady’s suggestion of the USB 2.0 hub and I think I should be thanking Brady also. I didn’t know how I missed Brady’s post or even thought about it myself.

Andy B.

[andyb]

Problem is solved and 3.5.5 is running great. The samples I just cut came out great.

Andy B.

[Gary Campbell]

Andy...
Dont thank me... Brady is the one.. I just remembered that I read it. And by the way, the update letting the forum know what works (or not) will help every one.
Gary