SERIOUS violation of safety...

[harryball]

I decided to try 3.6.5 again this morning. I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not but...

I occasionally make a mistake like forgetting to zero Z. A few minutes ago I did such a thing, I remembered while it was still jogging to the first cut position so I hit the space bar... still going... SO I slapped the bit red button... STILL GOING... As I'm standing here slapping the big red button over and over it proceeds to start cutting... as I'm reaching for the power button on the bot itself, it stopped... I looked at the control screen, red button pressed warning is affirmative... and the software is still running the program as if it is cutting. The bot traveled almost 37 inches before stopping (I measured)

Seriously... I've made no modifications for some time and in fact used the big red button a few days ago and it worked fine.

I have no idea but I am going back to 3.5.x and staying this time. I thought this button interrupted something mechanical to make things stop. What gives... what kind of malfunction could leave the bot running while the red button is pressed? I need to check it out ASAP and fix/replace whatever the problem is.

Let my heart slow down first... I'm just glad I wasn't stopping it for some serious reason.

I will let SB support know Monday. This gives me cold chills... I have had it refuse to stop several times with the space bar, button click, let go of the keyboard move key... but never on the big red button push.

/RB

[john_hartman]

I can second a similar issue of not stopping after having forgotten to zero the material and trying to stop with the space bar using 3.6.5

I think these versions are plagued with certain PC set-ups. Apparently down grading back to 3.5.18 is the only possible solution until a newer version is released.

[tmerrill]

I haven't seen this problem and have been using 3.6.5 since its release. Then upgraded to 3.6.10 a couple of days ago when it was released. I always test both the space bar and e-stop after a change like that.

Did you reflash the firmware? I do that even it if doesn't ask for it. Might help.

Tim

[harryball]

Yeah, I did the firmware and all. I'm back on 3.5.20... I think I'll stay there a while. I still don't know if it was related or some other problem but I didn't like it.

/RB

[myxpykalix]

I have on occassion had to stop the movement and you hit the spacebar and nothing happens then you keep banging till it does but this has only happened a couple times using 3.5.??

Early on in my botting days i buried a 1/2 endmill in the mdf and thru the plenum down to the shank so you could see thru to the floor and I couldn't stop it till it blew both fuses in the control box. I'm sure it was operator error on that one though.

[steve4460]

This is the latest and hopefuly the greatesed http://www.shopbottools.com/controlsoftware.htm
Has anybody been running this 3.6.10 ?. What do you guys think of it so far ?.

[harold_weber]

Robert, I've had the EXACT same issue you mention here with Version 3.6.5; after witnessing that behavior I uninstalled it immediately, and I'm having no problems with 3.5.20.

Stephan, I see no indication in the notes that accompany 3.6.10 that it fixes this problem.

[tmerrill]

OK, with everyone coming forward with this issue, I assume you have all notified ShopBot so they could have the opportunity to investigate and correct it. Unless I've missed it, I don't recall any recent forum posts regarding the issue. If ShopBot wasn't aware of the problem, I doubt if we would see it fixed in the 3.6.10 release notes.

[curtiss]

RE: zero Z

Whenever I grab the wrenches, I also take the zero plate out of the holder and lay it on the table. Helps me to remember to zero with the new bit...

I also noticed for some reason, the proper decimal point location seems to be the most important on the z axis

[mitch_prest]

I had a similar issue where the bot didn't want to stop.. i figured it was just pilot error.. this was after upgrading as well.. I rebooted and carried on.. no thought of telling anyone about it.. I may not be the only one that just thought it was there own doing..

mitch

[bill]

I too! My story of fright...
Just surfaced the playing squares on a chessboard with the 2.5" dia. surfacing tool. Started to jog the too UP and it would not stop. Thank God I wasn't Jogging DOWN! Hate to have seen a 2.5" hole bored into a $3000.00 Red Amboynia Burl Chessboard. I too am sticking with 3.5.18 until......

[dlcw]

I have been running on a version between 3.6.5 and 3.6.10 and have noticed a couple little things. First, it is slow to react to the spacebar or 'S' key for stopping. I have noticed, however, that the version I have is not loosing keystrokes like previous versions had a tendency to do.

I haven't tried the panic button, but I would certainly hope that ShopBot would NOT put out a release that ignores the panic button. That button is really played up in the assembly and operations manual and touted as the way to stop the bot in its tracks like the SawStop stops a tablesaw. I hope it's true that it will or I'm going to be VERY UNHAPPY if I loose a $3K piece of work because of it.

Bill, I'm glad you weren't in a down jog as well. That gives me the willies to think of loosing any project done with amboynia burl. That stuff is beautiful and REALLY expensive. I use it for turning pens.

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)

[harryball]

I don't want to jump to the conclusion that the big red button failure was the software. I always thought the big red button bypassed control software, firmware etc... and was the next best thing to POWER OFF. I'd assumed it was a direct interrupt of some kind and not a request to the control software to stop.

Anyway... I'm sticking with 3.5.X for now and will call SB on Monday to make sure something else isn't wrong. I want that fixed. While chewing into a $3000 project would not make my day I just cringe thinking what if my son had tripped and got hung up somehow or a board broke free and instead of stopping it was hurled across the room.

/RB

[ken_rychlik]

Mine is ackting wierd with the 3,6,10 but I want to see if I can get it worked out. I can't run the ecab link without the new version. Mine is slow to respond on keyboard commands and somtimes you have to enter the same command several times before it will take. I have not run it enough to know about the stops. I will try it tomorrow and see if it's an issue there as well.

Kenneth

[ken_rychlik]

Progress report on mine. All safety stops work within a few seconds. Even when it's running hard across diagonally. E stop, enter key, space bar, S key, All work fine in stopping a file.

The only issue mine has is the keyboard commands are iffy. If you want to do a C2 to zero the bit you have to do a C (wait a few seconds) 2 and it will take it.

I can't hit it fast like I did on the old software.

[adrianm]

I've noticed a few times that it's very easy to take focus away from the keypad window at which point the bot will carry on moving regardless of what you do next.

I've replicated this on purpose and accident quite a few times by holding down an arrow key to move the bot and then catching the right mouse button on my keyboard (built-in trackpad) with the heel of my hand.

I would have thought the keypad window would be set to disallow anything else taking focus but it looks like it's not.

The red Stop button has worked every time though.

[thewoodcrafter]

Mine works just as Kenneth's does.
I run 3.6.5.

[adrianm]

Forgot to add that I'm on 3.6.10, it's a new bot and I've never run any of the previous versions.

[rhfurniture]

Firstly, I am NOT on 3.6.*, and will not go near it until or unless I have to.
The only time I've had that sort of problem has been with sawdust in the keyboard.
Only ever hit the red button a couple of times.
R.

[mitch_prest]

had another interesting thing happen this morning.. I ran a file.. it worked fine.. but when it finished .. it would not let my mouse out of the active box.. the only thing it would let me do was open another file..

m

[oddcoach]

I have been having the slow response to the spacebar i had just figured it was a crappy keyboard and lived with it. i cannot say what version it started with.

[coach]

I have been running 3.5.15 for a while now.

Am I missing something not upgrading?

[rb99]

At least none of your fingers....

Richard

[tmerrill]

Interesting bit of information from Brady's column:

"Specialized Settings for STOPS and KeyPad. The last few settings in [VR] define some specialized threshold settings. The Fast Stop Threshold sets the highest speed where your tool will instantly stop when you hit the Space Bar or the E-Stop. At higher speeds you will get a ramped stop and a Z axis pull up from the material followed by the router/spindle being turned off on tools with spindle control. This type of ramped stop can always be triggered via the S key. The default setting has been 3, but ShopBot has recently changed the default to .2 so that all STOP conditions will trigger the same, safe, ramped stop with Z pull-up and spindle turn-off. You can still set the value higher so that for special conditions you can have an instant stop. However, values above 3 are not recommended as this puts a lot of shock into the drive system.

The remaining two threshold settings apply for KeyPad [K or SK] mode only. They adjust how the tool responds when moving the tool around with the arrow keys. The Keypad Stop Threshold is very similar to the Fast Stop Threshold. The default is 1.75 IPS, I’ve bumped mine up a little to 2 IPS. The Keypad Ramp Rate is similar to the Move Ramp Rate, and it controls how quickly the tool will accelerate and decelerate when moving the tool with the keyboard. The default is 0.8, which I found to be too soggy. I set mine to 0.2 for crisp movement. However, some people prefer the slower response because it allows very precise small moves."

Two thoughts, check your settings to see if they are factory and if so, possibly change the values to see how it may improve the situation.

I would view the spacebar as a software e-stop. So much can affect the time lag, and as someone stated a simple layer of dust or a piece of sawdust can prevent a membrane type keyboard from working.

The e-stop button is much more serious and I hope Robert reports back what he finds. Not sure, but for those of you who come under OSHA, not having a reliable e-stop may have serious implications.

Tim

[harryball]

I talked to Ryan at Shopbot and as I'd suspected the switch does NOT rely on the software. It is a physical disable and should not be able to fail as mine did. The setup is designed to "fail safe" which means if a problem with the safety system occurs it should shutdown until you fix it, not the other way around. However, no system is truly 100% fail safe, there is always something that can happen to defeat even the most robust safety systems. Think about all the planes that have fallen from the sky with multiple system failures.

In this case we decided there are 3 possible problems. The switch itself, the wire from the switch to the bot, or connections in the bot itself.

The switch is possible but I don't believe likely. I will check it out but I don't expect to find anything.

The bot control box is very unlikely but I will check it out and make sure there are no faulty connections or debris that has bridged a terminal.

That leaves the wire. I believe this is the most likely cause. It runs on the floor from the wall over to the bot. It is under a soft spongey floor mat but I have been stepping on it for 3 years now. Thinking back, it was when I left the stop button and applied weight on the floor mat as I reached for the power button that the bot did finally stop.

I am going to pull that wire and split it open along the length currently on the floor. I'll let you know what I find.

/RB

[cip]

RB
I just moved my machine which required relocating the E stop. When I tried to start the machine it would not. After some research I discovered the E stop button was full of saw dust. I cleaned it out everything is fine now. It might not be a bad idea to check this big red button from time to time and clean it out. You can bet I will be checking mine.

Mike

[GlenP]

Hey Robert, does the estop work fine when you went back the older software. Alot of guys above post same problem as you had. I ran the 3.6 software for a few days and had a very scary things happen so I went back to 3.5.20 as well. Perhaps adding a second estop right on the control box might be good. Good luck and man glad you weren't vacuum stuck to the table when that happened....no telling what the outcome might have been then. lol Sorry Robert had to.
Happy Halloween all. Hope the bots don't run scary today

[harryball]

The software had nothing to do with the Estop. I pulled the cable, it is flat where it is under the mat but I have not had time to cut it open yet. When I get it all checked out I'll post pictures.

/RB

[Ryan P]

An Alpha E stop is completely mechanical the software has nothing to do with the way the E Stop works. When the E stop is pressed the power to the motor drives and VFD/spindle is disconnected. An Alpha E stop is a NC (normally closed) circuit. The NC is connected with two pairs and both pairs are NC. The reason for this is if one of the wires becomes disconnected or cut you will not be able to reset power until the circuit is repaired. The only way Robert issue could be possible is if both pairs are connected in the cable.

[ed_lang]

My older PRTalpha ran NO and could not detect an open or cut in the wires. I expect that is what Robert Ball will find. My new PRSalpha has the e-stop connected NC and will detect a broken wire.

[Ryan P]

Ed,
All alpha Shopbots PRS and PRT old and new have the same type of Estop.

[ed_lang]

Thanks for getting me all straight Ryan.

I would have bet my new machine on the switch settings being different between my old machine and this new one.

Guess I am getting older than I thought.

One thing for sure, this goes to show you that asking a question on the Forum might give you the wrong answer. Ask ShopBot for the right answer.

[richards]

Depending on which machine you have, it would be very easy to install a Normally Closed momentary E-Stop switch that is in series with the coil of the main contactor relay. If a mushroom head E-stop switch were activated that required a twist to release, the coil would be bypassed and all power to the electronics inside the machine would be cut off.

I haven't taken the time to trace the signals on my PRT-Alpha to see how Shopbot uses the E-stop signal. They may do exactly what I'm suggesting or even have a much better method.

[richards]

I've received a few emails asking for a schematic showing what my last post was all about. The bottom part of the schematic shows how a common Contactor (GMC-22) can be wired to be self-latching. That means that when you turn on the main disconnect (not part of the schematic), you also have to push a momentary switch to activate the Contactor (SW1). When SW1 is pressed, it allows power to flow through the coil of the Contactor, which causes all of the contacts to close, including the auxiliary switch contacts shown at the bottom of the schematic. When the auxiliary switch is closed, the Contactor is latched on and will stay on until power is turned of OR until the E-Stop switch is opened (SW2). As soon as power to the coil is interrupted, all contacts open and the Contactor is disactivated until SW1 is pressed again.

This is a very basic circuit that does not require any on-board circuitry. Many of us who have built process control computers have used this type of circuit for more than thirty-years as a very basic safety circuit. As long as SW2 (the E-Stop switch) is a mushroom head twist-to-unlock type switch, it is about as fool-proof as anything available. Total cost for two idec brand 22mm switches and an 18A MEC GMC-22 contactor is about $75.00. Prices from other supplies varies greatly.


3933

[harryball]

I have checked inside the control panel and gone through the cable. The cable, though a little worn, is fine inside.

When I opened the switch I found this...


3934


The relay holder was lopsided but the switch worked over and over. It would not come off if pulled, it moved around a lot but worked otherwise.

I don't know that I've ever opened the switch since it was all wired up when I got it. I just dbl back taped it to the wall. I did remove the relay holder and properly reseat it then reassemble the switch.

Though there is a very good chance that was the problem I can only suspect since I was never able to get it to fail with the continuity meter attached.

For the moment, I'm going to call it solved.

/RB

[tmerrill]

A couple of years ago I installed a magnetic starter in the ShopBot's dedicated circuit. The real reason I did this was because my area tends to have numerous power glitches and outages and I wanted everything to stop immediately and require my action to start back up. Everything but the dust collection (Fein vacuum) goes through this switch.

I decided to position the switch directly over the computer station so it's red STOP button acts as a second emergency stop. If something was going real bad, before I would hit the spacebar I'd hit the red stop.

I haven't had to use it as an emergency stop yet, but during initial testing I did hit it when the ShopBot was in the middle of a cut and everything stopped immediately. For me, using a router with a manual on/off switch, this has the added bonus of shutting it off also.

Tim


3935


3936


3937

[harryball]

Very good idea... I wonder if I can put one on the shop. :-)

I can see the value in such a design just in piece of mind. I seriously need to take some time and move my shop around and add a few safety features like that. I have some great ideas... but never seem to find the time to actually do them vs. working.

I forgot to mention, I did snap the relay holder in properly before reassembling.

If such an event happens again I WILL replace the big red button with one of my own. I'll call it the Big Red STOP the #%$^& NOW button.

:-)

/RB