Rhino 3D

[pjldesigns@hotmail.com]

I use and teach Rhino3D for the past year and I agree that it is one great value for the money.

$1000 for a 3 modelling package that so far has done everything I want. The learning curve is very short (days) to get useful output from it.

To machine a part you set up the part in the top view window and then export it as a 3D DXF file.

Then I import into modelmill and generate the toolpath. We have made molds, chair seats, photos, signs and more.

[cwho@groundworkmedia.com]

I am eagerly waiting for my version of Mill Iwzzard and was glad to see that Shobbot had found it. I was going to start writing the prosprocessor (delcam provides directions and software to custom configure the postprocessor and it looks as if it might be able to write G code) so PLEASE let me know if anyone has had a go at it. We also just purchased Millit light. A cool program that will allow you to make very big things with a shopbot. It is 1K but I hope it will be worth it. Can we start a 3 d forum section? I would be interested to learn what ramp settings people are using in millwizzard.

Thanks

[andrew@computersculpture.com]

Bob Neitzke (Birdsofplay) on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 08:57 pm wrote:
OK ...

I have to agree with the positive comments about Rhino.

It is easier than the big time CAD packages to do 3D manipulations. The big guys are SO into exact and precision inputs that they forgot about the ART of Engineering.

Rhino seems to be fairly well suited to doing those bas relief types of things that we "want" for machining on our SBs.

Combine Rhino with the MillWizard ( $250 ) and you've got about the best bang for the buck that I've seen. IMHO

[I agree. I just got in a consignment of MillWizard to complement my discount on Rhino- I'm not supposed to advertise my price on it, because I'm selling it too cheaply, but it does help that "bang for buck" ratio. I'm not that familiar with the Shopbot, but I understand it now accepts standard G-code and will operate all 3 axes at the same time? It seems like there used to be some problems in this area. If these were straightened out, it certainly becomes a more interesting alternative for those attempting to make true 3d objects from their computer models.]

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

[b1705@bellatlantic.net]

http://www.howstuffworks.com/3dgraphics.htm
For those of you following the ongoing saga of 3-D graphics, this is an excellent explanation of the concept. Even if you are not so interested in 3-D, at least look at the "parent'web page this article is part of-www.howstuffworks.com..

[cwho@groundworkmedia.com]

I think that Bill's lines for the Millwizzard Postprocssor Config file:
FORMAT = [X|@|||1.3]
FORMAT = [Y|@|||1.3]
FORMAT = [Z|@|||1.3]
should read
FORMAT = [X|@||1.3]
FORMAT = [Y|@||1.3]
FORMAT = [Z|@||1.3]
This puts the 1.3 as the numerical format rather than scale factor.
What does anyone else think of Millwizzard? Roughing pass is slow but it is VERY easy to use.
I think this is correct. Thanks Charles

[birdsofplay]

OK ...

I have to agree with the positive comments about Rhino.

It is easier than the big time CAD packages to do 3D manipulations. The big guys are SO into exact and precision inputs that they forgot about the ART of Engineering.

Rhino seems to be fairly well suited to doing those bas relief types of things that we "want" for machining on our SBs.

Combine Rhino with the MillWizard ( $250 ) and you've got about the best bang for the buck that I've seen. IMHO

Compared to BobCAD. Millwizard is much simpler and understandable and stable, but you don't get the nice outlining of the islands. BobCAD,I found, did a lot of "deadheading" returns and just fouled up alot when asking it to do spiral pocketing in my demo version. It could be my inexperience at it, but compared to the more difficult 3D stuff in Rhino, which is still more understandable, bobcad it leaves me "dry".

Rhino, compared to the "other" big time 3D art package from AutoDesk, called 3d Studio Max, is much more affordable and used alot like at Purdue et al in graphics arts programs.

I'd suggest downloading all the Demos and then going to www.3dcafe.com and grabbing a bunch of the more intersting and "free" 3D models and just playing with the "lot" to see if this 3D stuff is really your cup of tea. I've had a fun week doing just that.

I've asked SB to see if they could get us any discounts on Rhino. I asked today, so dont expect any short term answers. If a bunch of us ask maybe we'll get a response.
I note that the Rhino book $50 at their site is only$40 at Amazon.com. Unfortunately the reviews on the Rhino book are not heartening. Still it sounds like a good alternative due to lack of anything alternatives.

Local universities occassionally offer classes and I note that Rhino commercial ver is offered to the attendees at only $95 !!!
I find that somewhat strange because they have a student price of $195 vs the commercial cost of $795 advertised on their site www.rhino3d.com. I presume that the classes are not cheap either.
I'd love the get hold of a class syllabus and lab books/materials for "review".

After all this work and expense you're still going to have to have the "nack" of Selling Art at a price that will offset all your engineering time and very long milling times ( hrs and hrs ).

Hope this helps all of you budding Virtual Sculptors

[birdsofplay]

Ron re your 3D posting ...

1. Scan in your work

OK, I can do that ... no sweat

2. Convert it to 3D

What exactly do you mean here ?
For me I have to convert the scans to
vector somehow, first.
Does Turbo CAD do that for you ?
Or do you mean to use cad the trace over the
rasters that you just scanned in ?
Using bsplines or plylines or whatever.

3. Open it in a 3D cad program, and set your depths.

Um , err, that IS the problem !
Always has been.
For a face or a Cameo etc thats a lota "depths"
to get smooth contouring.
Not simple IMHO. nor "quick"

What exactly do you mean here ?

4. Wiew it in a Rendering program

I assume you mean View ...
OK, I can do that too !

5. Cut it.

ok ok ok i give up ... send me your stuff.

You've certainly piqued my interest this time :-)

I gotta see this.

Bob

Let the good times roll :-) Bob

[birdsofplay]

Yep I got em :-)

Very interesting ?
I have an inquiring mind, I wanna know more.

Ron and talked at length last evening.
Those files a certainly interest piquing !

Later I took his Before file and attempted to do
similar stuff with two different CADs.
First MicroStation Modeler.
I imported the dxf and then attempted to extrude the shapes into solids.
The larger outside shapes worked OK, BUT when I tried to use the inside shapes to CUTOUT holes in the larger solid the program balked.
So I said OK I can do this another way ...
I extruded all the shapes and attempted to do a
boolean difference between the big one and the little one(s) ... that blew up too !!! ???
arrrgh !!!

OK ... next I brought up my Eval version of Rhino.
I've only played with it a few hours , mind you.
I extruded the shapes again, one at a time, because it balked when I selected all elements.
The boolean difference didnt work here either.

Rhino did work much better for VIEWING all of Rons solids in a rendered mode, however, because you can do live rendered rotations in the render preview mode. Good enough to see the differences that Ron had done between the files.
BTW the MillWizard eval is good for this too but not as nice as Rhino.

So I figured what the hell, why not try my Bob Cad eval, and do islands and pockets, well ...
it failed miserably too.
Then again I have very little experience with Bobcad either.

Alternatly if all you want to do with Rons file is fretwork, then you could just cut the outlines, ya know ?

In summation, if Rons program can do what he claims, it ought to be a benifit to SBers.

The real crux, again, will be the milling time and the total time it takes to actually produce a piece or "art".

Still, if the price turns out to be reasonable I would be interested in looking at Rons program.

[birdsofplay]

Being on the Rhino Demo users list I just received some of their latest blurbs.

www.toolchips.com has a very interesting marketing philosophy for their 3D toolpath program.
Its a "pay per use" kinda thang !
ie $29 for 14 days !!!

Since most of the 3D time is spent in Design on CAD, this sounds like a great way to get INTO those ocassional 3D projects and not have to bet the pension check on some over hyped SW package.

Or , at least, so it seems.

Therefore, I'm downloading the 10MB+ of stuff and
I'll letcha know.

[joa]

Anybody using Rhino for 3D CAD work?

I downloaded their demo version and really like it. I've tried a lot of 3D programs and it is definitely the easiest to use that I have run across. Plus most of the commands and aliases (and F keys, etc.) are the same as AutoCAD so it comes pretty naturally.

Don't have any affiliation with Rhino or McNeel but so far it looks like a good program. Check it out at www.rhino3d.com

Joa

[bruce_clark]

Hi Andrew,

Yes, the ShopBot does support G-codes and will
work with MillWizard's output. I have verified
this with the demo files. I also heard that
someone was going to make a "post processor" that
generated ShopBot code directly. If not, I could
probably do that, once I get some free time.

Also, Shopbot does work in three axis
simultaniously. I have plenty of ModelMill parts
to prove it--ModelMill works on the same principle
as MillWizard but has creation tools and a few
other features, but cost ~10X as much.

MillWizard is well worth it if you want a simple
way to get into making 3D signs and/or contoured
surfaces on your ShopBot.

Bruce Clark
bwclark@centurytel.net (mailto:bwclark@centurytel.net)

[bruce_clark]

For everybody who wants to try the MillWizard demo
parts, here is a ShopBot specific "PostProcessor".

Copy and paste the follow code and put it in the
"PostP" directory. Name the File "ShopBot.con"

BTW, this is a very basic conversion and I could
not get it to calculate the feed rate correctly,
so you have to set it before you run the part
file.

Bruce
bwclark@centurytel.net (mailto:bwclark@centurytel.net)

;-----Start copy past this line----
;
; ShopBot configuration file
;
; History
;
; Who When What
; === ======== ========================================
; Bruce Clark 7/11/2000 Written for ShopBot PR96/32/2K
;
DESCRIPTION = "ShopBot Router (*.sbp)"
;
FILE_EXTENSION = "sbp"
;
UNITS = INCH
;
; Cariage return - line feed at end of each line
;
END_OF_LINE = "[13][10]"
;
; Set up default formating for variables
;
; Feed Rate
;
; Shopbot uses inch/s for output feed rate so divide by 60
; this is same as * (1/60)
;
;FORMAT = [F|#||1.2|0.0166]
;
; Tool moves in x,y and z
;
FORMAT = [X|@|||1.3]
FORMAT = [Y|@|||1.3]
FORMAT = [Z|@|||1.3]
;
; Set up program header
;
;
START = "SC,1"
;START = "SS,[F],[F]"
;
FEED_RATE_MOVE = "M3,[X],[Y],[Z]"
RAPID_RATE_MOVE = "J3,[X],[Y],[Z]"
;
END = "END"

[bruce_clark]

CWho found a bug in the above Postprocessor that I
wrote above. I have since updated it and am
reposting it. The same instructions apply.
Thank you CWHO for pointing this out.

Copy and paste the follow code and put it in the
"PostP" directory. Name the File "ShopBot.con"

BTW, the postprocessor still does not support the
feedrate. That is something that I will work on
next (when I get some time).

Bruce Clark
bwclark@centurytel.net (mailto:bwclark@centurytel.net)

;-----Start copy past this line----
;
; ShopBot configuration file
;
; History
;
; Who When What
; === ======== ========================================
; Bruce Clark 7/11/2000 Written for ShopBot PR96/32/2K
; Charles Overy 7/31/2000 Updated bug in output
;
DESCRIPTION = "ShopBot Router (*.sbp)"
;
FILE_EXTENSION = "sbp"
;
UNITS = INCH
;
; Cariage return - line feed at end of each line
;
END_OF_LINE = "[13][10]"
;
; Set up default formating for variables
;
; Feed Rate
;
; Shopbot uses inch/s for output feed rate so divide by 60
; this is same as * (1/60)
;
;FORMAT = [F|#||1.2|0.0166]
;
; Tool moves in x,y and z
;
FORMAT = [X|@||1.3]
FORMAT = [Y|@||1.3]
FORMAT = [Z|@||1.3]
;
; Set up program header
;
;
START = "SC,1"
;START = "SS,[F],[F]"
;
FEED_RATE_MOVE = "M3,[X],[Y],[Z]"
RAPID_RATE_MOVE = "J3,[X],[Y],[Z]"
;
END = "END"

[giggalo]

I had a few minutes today so I thought I would check out the forum, It looks like shopbotter are now getting into 3D? But do not know what programs to use.

Rhino $800.00
Milwizard $250.00
Vector $175.00?
Milwrite $3,000.00

$4,225.00 just to do 3D? wow.

For us to do 3D it cost $60.00 now.

I just orderd Milwizard becuse of the price, and use Turbocad 6.5 to do my work in

Me and Bill Palumbo have been working on 3D for months and after 1000s of hours of trial and error have come up with a way a 5 year old could do it.

Our method is simple.

1. Scan in your work
2. Convert it to 3D
3. Open it in a 3D cad program, and set your depths.
4. Wiew it in a Rendering program
5. Cut it.

Drawing 3D is going to take many hours to do just 1 part file? and if you are new to 3D? months.

Lets say you have an idea that you would like to see cut in 3D, how would you draw it and how long would it take to do, you could always have someone make it for you right, but it will cost you $$$ and then you might not like it.

Would it not be nice to be able to just do some thing in minutes then hours or days?.

Me and Bill are past the part of doing raised letters in any style and 3D letters and are working on writing all this up and putting it on cd.

The programs we are useing are freeware but since making contact with the persons that made the freeware, they decided that it might be worth selling for a small fee, we are having them add feartures that will do the work for us and only add the tools we need to make our job easy.

To give you an idea on what we are working on I took my Fret Pattern and converted them into 3D, I made 5 diffrent shapes and it only took 2 minutes to make them.

If you would like to see them? send me an email and I will send them to you.

You will get a Before and 5 Afters of the file in a dxf format, just render the After files to see the shapes of them.

We have found that we can take just about any picture and make it 3D.

Ron

[giggalo]

ok Bob you got mail...lol, let me know what you think about the files.

Ron

[giggalo]

Sorry let me make try this again.

We figured out a way to take a 2d picture, a bitmap and turn it into a 3d file.

Or lets say you have a 2d dxf file and you want to make it a 3d file, and you want to add

STRAIGHT
S-CURVE
SMALL 45 ENDS
BIG 45 ENDS
ROUNDED CORNERS
CHAMFER
BARREL
OUTLINE STAMP
OUTLINE STAMP WITH OFFSET
HOUR GLASS
OUTLINE KNIFE
ROUND EMBOSSED
and many more.

All you would do is choose what you wanted and just click on save, it is now a 3d file that Milwizard can machine.

Now with a bitmap file, all you would do is open it in the program and it will trace it in 2d, now you can add any shape or style to it to match the picture, you might have to choose 2 settings or more to get it close to 100% just like the picture, then just save it as a dxf, when you open it in your 3d cad program you will see it is now a 3d file, here you set the Z depth and the X & Y, or just set it in Milwizard.

Now there are freeware programs out there that will open a 3d dxf file for you to shape it many ways, you will be able to make it look just like the picture.

Bottom line is you can learn how to draw the file you need to cut in 3d or draw it in 2d and let the program do all the work for you.

Keep in mind that any 3d file will take time to cut if you want a good smooth finish.

[mail@graphixtreme.com]

Just out of curiosity, is Rhino3D a parametric software?

[rhfurniture]

No, it is nurbs based surface modelling.
But it is very good and comprehensive.

R.

[Brady Watson]

Chris,
By parametric, do you mean that you can select a 2D or 3D object and scale it up 1,2 or 3 dimensions proportionally? If so, then yes it is.

I find it perfect for scaling the X and Y on a 3D object and independently scaling the Z to fit my material height.

-Brady

[mail@graphixtreme.com]

I don't know the exact definition of parametric offhand, but in a nushell it means that say you design a 3D block with a boss and a hole in the center of the boss, radius at the base of the boss. Okay, now you need to make the boss and hole bigger. With a parametric software, it is very simple to do this by just changing these parameters (diameters in this case) and the whole solid updates, including the radius. Products such as SolidWorks, Pro/E, CATIA, Alibre and Unigraphics are all parametric. It used to be you'd have to use stirctly Boolean operations such as subtract, union etc. to "carve" away material or add some here and there. It made a "dumb" solid in that if you needed to alter anything, you'd most likely have to redo a lot of it to change simple parameters.

[johnny_s]

Rhino is not parametric. With those programs, you have a bit of a learning curve, less with solidworks. You can do complexed 3-D modeling with a lot of practice, but Rhino is way easier to learn. The parametric modelers are perfect for creating things with geometric shapes and changing their parameters later, but they can still choke if you creat a part with compound curves and varying fillets.

Sounds like you a familiar with the "dumb solid", so to modify one of those, you have to explode the part, un-trim the hole, re-trim in new position or size and attach everything back again.

I don't know what you do, but if you can afford it, solidworks is a really good thing to have. If I wasn't so set in my ways, I would use it 99% of the time, and rhino the other times - instead of the reverse, which it is right now.

I guess, if you or your customers can never settle on a place or size of "things", then parametric is for you. If you create product that has many parts that need to fit in many different places, and varying tolerances, or your projects are always done from scratch (next project completely different), then parametric is helpful. If you produce a line of things that have occasional updates, then do the CAD upfront, with a lesser (cheaper, non parametric)software, make sure its right and save some money.

[graphixtreme]

I use Unigraphics daily at my day-JOB, but am looking to break out into my own with my primary focus being on signs. Now, I'd really like to use the ShopBot (and my degree in Mech. Engr.) for other things, but I already have a somewhat established sign business that I plan to pursue. I know the 'bot is cabable of MUCH more, and I plan to exploit lots of things as they come my way. I have used SolidWorks some and like it quite well, but am also looking at some others (my other post on Alibre is one of them). I have a pile of time with Unigraphics so far, so a CAD-type package is appealing, but I also want to be sure it will do what I want with carved signs. Possibly I'll need multiple softwares, but I have shallow pockets and can only afford so much. There may be a good compromise out there, so that is the reason for my questions so I can get the right thing first, if possible.

Thanks for the feedback!

[artisan]

Chris....take a look at the Rhino-Visualmill Basic combo. For around 1500.00...or less, you will have a VERY capable package with some very advanced machining abilities. Andrew Werby's site "computersculpture.com" sells both software packages for 1380.00 combined. He also does some comparative reviews. Hope this helps....D