From "raster" file to "vector" file lettering...

[paco]

I had this first project to cut lettering from a JPG file that the customer provide and I was wondering, after redrawing it over in CAD software (using bitmap background function), how would you go from a "raster" file type to vector drawing that could be use to CAM it? Would you choose to "trace" it? To do as I did? Or other option? The task was'nt so bad but a little long (1hours 1/2; to redraw it over in a CAD) Here a sample of the font so you could have a better idea...

4120
This is my redrawing; the original was more blur and colored... Simple but cannot find the font in default XP font??!! Not a suprise!
Just how long would you say it take to get a "vector" file from "raster" file about this type of font?

[phil_o]

I have had very good results with the following procedure. First; open the JPG in a paint program, then copy and paste it into Part Wizard. Next use the polyline tool to trace the shape. Then fine tune the tracing by converting the span to bezier with the node editing tool.

[artisan]

Programs like CorelDraw, with Corel Trace can convert your JPEG to a vector drawing in less than a minute. There are other raster to vector converters mentioned throughout the forum that you can uncover with the "Search" feature. Spending 1.5 hours on a project such as this is probably way too long....D

[paco]

Phil
I just can't view the past from clipboard in both PW1 and PW2???!!! Do you really use PW to "trace" by hand with polylines?! I'd use another CAD to do this... But I would be very happy to be able to do it in PW... Please, keep me inform.

Darrell
I plan to test tracing programs but wonder how good (accurate) they are... and how more time I will have to spend to get satisfied.

Is there any other way? (Not that thoses are'nt interesting but)... curious!

Thanks in advance!

[gerald_d]

Paco

We refuse to trace a font from a jpg unless it is only 4 letters or less. The customers normally know the name of the font that they used to make their design and we explain that they must give us the name of the TrueType font that is good enough for them - Or else they must go and look for someone else to do their cutting.

Life is too short to fool around with tracing fonts!

[paco]

Interesting point of view Gerald! But still, had you ever try to do it for customer in the past? From your post, I figure that you find out it was'nt profitable... or that you don't like spending time to do such project... What if customer don't know about original font?! My first idea was to put this thread in "buisness" section...

As for "software tracing"; I'd try my COREL 4 trace...
and did'nt manage to save time with the result... much nodes editing... less in "mouse tracing" but longer to trace...

[jim.frost@itron.com]

I'm still a beginner with much to learn but , for whatever it's worth, here's a process I have sucessfully used on text and lineart. So far nothing, except manual simplification, works well when the original has lots of line crossings.

Load the JPG into Photoshop (other higher end photo programs may have similar features). If JPG has jaggies, use the resize feature to resample to higher resolution, say 300 DPI. A slight gausian blur can help jaggies also. Select white space in the resulting text/art, then invert the selection Open a new blank layer, change the selection to a path, trace the path with a one pixel width, discard the original layer, and save the new layer as bitmap. Lots of words, a few mouse strokes. Use Corel trace on the bitmap, and the DXF result will need very little editing.

[gerald_d]

Paco, when we do sometimes trace logos, we use the mouse and AutoCad LT. Then we use Arcs and in particular, the Arc Continue. The Arc Continue is a very useful facility, because, with a single click, the next arc is drawn tangential to the previous arc, ending at the clicked point. Each arc segment becomes only one line of code in the .sbp.

[bjenkins]

Paco,

I learned about a trace program off this forum. It is called TraceArt. You can search for it easily or here is one link to it. You can download a fully functioning version and see what you think. If the objects are very complicated I find myself cleaning them up a bit.

http://www.freefirestudio.com/traceart.htm

[paco]

Here a screen shot of what I was face to...

4121
As said previously, "software tracing" was'nt really effective (not very much than "mouse tracing") but I did'nt test very long to get bored... but I do think that the process can be improved (more if one use a more recent software than COREL 4!!!
)
My main concern (I should have underlined it) is in what average time are you able to get to my first view (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=31&post=16047#POST16047). I've been doing it, for a first time, in about 1 1/2 hour... (I must admit that I already been using sometime thoses features about "tracing", but never seriously.)

[paco]

Hey Phil O'Rourke!? Do you really use Part Wizard to do that?! (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=31&post=16053#POST16053)

[simon]

Hi
I would import this JPG into Illustrator, and on a good day I could trace the 13 letters in your pic in 15 minutes and be paid 30-40 of your earth dollars.
Once you have the O you can use the shapes to make the Cc,e, and once you have the q and i you have the rest.
30 minutes tops.
I only use tracing programs as an artistic endeavour.

[bill.young]

Hey Paco,

I've only tried it with their samples but www.whatthefont.com (http://www.whatthefont.com) lets you upload an image of text and will supposedly tell you what font was used. Might be worth a try for jobs like this.

Bill

[bjenkins]

Paco,

I took a minute to try your image with TraceArt. It was far from clean! The raster image has pixel transitions that make the edges too undefined for the program to work well. I had a similar challenge with a logo I worked with. I ended up tracing it in Illustrator. Sometimes it's faster to do it the hard way.

[paco]

Is Illustrator a "raster" file editor, a "vector" file ed. or do both as other CAD enable to use a "raster" file as background? I to use some letter to do other... but still got to edit much of the nodes to get satisfied (the file I create (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=31&post=16047#POST16047) from the "raster" one is VERY SHARP; I line up every nodes point to the thousandth... Maybe to much work but I think PRO!!!
(Opinion?!?!)

Simon; what do you mean as "I only use tracing programs as an artistic endeavour."? Curious...

Thanks Bill, I will take a look at it and test it... is it a FREE, a SHAREWARE or an evaluation version?

Thanks every body for the inputs!

Still, if you got ideas on how to achieve this easely and fast join this thread and share your thought...

[paco]

Bill, that's a very intersesting site! Thanks! From what I charged for the CAD job, the font is still a little expensive (for a one use...)... I wonder if purchased in "bulk" they are "cheaper"???

Bud, I think that with more practice/experience, I could "trace" it faster (knowing more of the software features...). I may have save a little on time using "softwarwe tracing" but...???

[artisan]

Before tracing a piece such as the one Paco has illustrated, you should always convert to black and white and increase the contrast slightly to make it easier for the tracing software to recognize the "edges". Another trick is to split your raster image into CMYK channels ....B&W color separations.... and choose the the one that is the cleanest. This will eliminate much of the "garbage" in your tracing. Most of the time, it is easier to simply identify the font and recreate the work as Gerald suggests, But, there are times when you will receive customized fonts from art directors and logo's which are not yet vectorized where tracing is the best solution. Hope this helps....D

[paco]

I'll test that Darrell... Thanks for the tips!

[gerald_d]

"But, there are times when you will receive customized fonts from art directors and logo's which are not yet vectorized where tracing is the best solution."

There is a lot of talking and learning/teaching that needs to be done with your clients who are the arty type. It is well worthwhile getting them to understand the reason for CNC wanting to work with vectors. They mostly have far better raster/vector converters than we have - right on their desks, the same program that they created the art with in the first place. In other words, coax/coach them into bringing you dxf files. (Or writing down the name of the font that they grabbed).

[paco]

I had this idea, while having lunch, to get the lettering done by another person (maybe YOU!!!) from the original font (Horizon) used to do this lettering (customer was'nt the designer so could'nt provide the font...); so one could type he 20 caracters need with "Horizon" font, save it as DXF file(or ART file) and e-mail it to me so I cold use the file to do my CAD design...

So how would you charged me for 20 caracters (8 capital and 12 "small") save as DXF or ART file and send it to me? Size don't matter, just need the caracters... I figure that this could be done a few minutes (maybe seconds??!!) and to let you know about the font price I got, it is around 25.00$usd for me to get it...

Note that the job is already done but this could be a buisness opportunity in the future to one owning the font I need...

Want to BID?!!!

[bill.young]

Just as a reference you might want to check out http://www.typenow.net/ , which claims to have 6080 free fonts. I've never used them before so can't vouch for their legitimacy but they sure have an AWFUL lot of fonts listed.

Bill

[paco]

Thanks again Bill! Very interesting but cannot find the wished font... but I download the "STAR WARS" font to see...

[billmaj]

Paco,
If you are truly interested in having someone do this for you, I can help. As a test I saved your color picture above as a jpg file. Then created a new model in artcam using your image. First step was to reduce the colors to 3. Then I simply used a polyline tool to create the vector for each letter. On the letter "C" I joined the line vectors with curves that matched your image and finally closed the vector with a curve. It didn't take long at all.

A couple of months ago I ran across a way to edit letters in fonts and save the revised letters in my own font. For the life of me though, I can't remember how I did it. This sounds like the ultimate solution for you. If you think you might want to go this route, I will keep digging around and try to figure out how I did it.

[paco]

Thanks Bill but I already know how to do "mouse tracing" and haved already done it! Please read again this post that offered a "buisness" challenge... (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=31&post=16092#POST16092)

Does ay body own HORIZON font and would had wish to make maoney with it??!!

[Brady Watson]

Paco,
You can buy the font from many places online for about $24. It is a BitStream font.

-Brady

[paco]

I know Brady. Do you own the font in question? What's a "BitStream" font?

[Brady Watson]

BitStream is the author of the font. No, I do not own it.

-Brady

[gerald_d]

Paco, have you considered that your client probably does own the font, and that they can give it to you?

[paco]

Yes...
I had considered.

Thanks for asking...

Do you own it yourself Gerald? If you did; would you had considered typing the 20 caracters for me and e-mail it to me as a DXF or ART file for me to work from this on my customer project? This could be the start of a sharing relation; an exchange of good process... or a way to make money from a font you owned...
Gerald, had you considered reading the previous post...



There is a lot of talking and learning/teaching that needs to be done with your clients who are the arty type. It is well worthwhile getting them to understand the reason for CNC wanting to work with vectors... coax/coach them into bringing you dxf files. (Or writing down the name of the font that they grabbed).

This one of you get my attention; I agree very; client often need some supervision... but in an other way, I think (as a buisness beginner!) that I have to show to client that I have many tricks to get to what they need... so, from this project, I try to find as many ways as I can to get from the only file he could provide to the lettering he ask me to make for him... For now, "mouse tracing" seem to be the most fast and accessible to me as for this kind of project. I plan to work on "Software tracing"
as Darrell Blanton suggest (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=31&post=16089#POST16089)...

Opinion?

[gerald_d]

I am not going to get involved in tracing fonts - did you read that I said life is too short?


If it was really necessary for us to re-create the word TECH in the "horizon" font (remember I said that I won't bother to copy more than 4 letters), I would not use a standard mouse trace with splines and curves. The horizon font requires exact parallel and equidistant lines, running exactly vertical and horizontal. Then there is also one fixed angle and only one fixed radius. For this specific font, I would use AutoCAD to recreate the simple geometric patterns after taking some ruler dimensions. (Yes, I will hold a ruler against the computer screen!) Pixels and rasters won't even come into the process. I am not going to get involved in trans-Atlantic business deals in the $20 dollar category for this really low-tech stuff.

[paco]

I think too that life is short and smiled when I had read you!

When I "mouse trace" this lettering, I had hold a key that allowed to make straight line and I trace it without any radius (to get it done by software fillet feature)... and I too had hold my ruler against computer screen!!! to get proportion of different size.

But what if you where around here? (don't you wish to get snow in the winter season?)!!!

[gerald_d]

What is snow ?

[paco]

You *!#?& lucky!

[simon]

Paco
A raster to vector trace program is always going to give you a bad result. If raggedy, averaged edges are what you are after, then fine, but There is no substitute for human intervention when precision is required.

[Brady Watson]

Good point, Simon.

No trace program out there is going to trace text well. You either get the font from the customer or kick down and buy it. To balk about a $24 font seems trival...buy it and charge the customer a measly $24, or an extra $1.20 a letter.

Gerald also makes a very good point as well. If it is more than 4 or 5 letters, it isn't worth your time to trace it properly ~ meaning that all lines are crisp and paralell where they should be.

-Brady

[paco]

Simon and Brady
Still I plan to test some more the trace software I have in hand; but from my previous trying, few years ago, and from what you several users had report me about current tracing softwares, I don't feel I'm gonna improve much...
As I align some numbers, I begin to think that buying the font could have been a good idea; I wonder if purchased in "bulk", they are cheaper (something like buying 500-1000 fonts on a CD...) I charged the customer some 33.00$ca for CAD part!!!


Thanks all for your inputs!

Hey Gerald, I'm not really angry you know... Just a little jealousof your sunny place!

[gerald_d]

4122

[kaaboom_99]

Paco, If you wish, send me the file so I can have a go at it for you.
Let me know.

[dan hamm (Unregistered Guest)]

Paco: just for fun I did a screen shot on yours,
and recreated a vector of your text in 3.5 min. using corel 10.. scalable, fillable no jaggies at
page size.. using point to point auto close function..and the adjust curve function....cheers
Dan Hammerstron..

[paco]

Please Dan, tell me more about the process you used?... Is it a "software tracer"? Or were you "mouse tracing" it? Or else?! Why don't you post your result (or part of) in this thread... or to my mail so I could say it's good enough... The way I see this now is that I should have purchase the font and charged it to customer... the price could have been even lower to him!!... Experiences... Maybe I could developed technics to speed up "mouse tracing" but up to how fast compared to buying the font and scaled it?!?!
Still, that's good info for me thanks!

[danhamm@abccom.bc.ca]

Paco, if you have coreldraw..the method is called point to point...the bezier tool on point to point or click to click...you start by making your letter page size then tracing point to point including curves..then when you have almost finished the outline you click on the pick tool..then use close curves..then click on the shape tool...right mouse click on any point you want to reshape and shape pointers will appear that will be used to adjust for just about any shape..very quick very easy...cheers
Dan Hammerstron

[paco]

That's pretty much what I did in RHINO!... And I know my Corel do too... Still,I got to fine tune 50% of a letter points/nodes to get it proportionate to the other letters and VERY look like the original font used... Please, show me your output... I'm curious!
Are'nt you a little pretentious saying you did it in 3.5 min.???

[kaaboom_99]

Paco, when it comes to Corel uses and questions, I have to come to bat for Dan. He is verrrryyyyy good with it and very efficient.
Having said that, Dan, it is so good to see and hear you are back. Your input has been dearly missed and I personally look forward to seeing your posts once again.

[paco]

3.5 minutes right?!!!

4123
That's more 5:40... for a single letter!!! I have done 20 in 1:45... that would be 113 minutes for you to "mouse trace" 20 letters and I've done it in 105!!!

I go this result at around an hour... I've done better, sharper, accurate letter... Sorry MAN, nice try though!
We did use pretty much the same technic...

Thanks, that give a good estimate of my capacities...

[danhamm@abccom.bc.ca]

OUCH: Well so much for trying to lend a hand,
you must be a "hunter" Paco, cause' you sure shot down this pidgeon..? also thanks for the
rude email:next time I will think twice before
attempting to help someone as sharp as you..
( by the way, I based it on the four letters)
and hypercam was running at 6 screen caps a second try doing anything fast with it running..
cheers...Paco

[paco]

Now there, don't take it so bad (as wrote in sent e-mail)... I like challenge! My idea was'nt to offend... Sorry... Buy the way, I love and respect all life forms... except for mosquito! And, YES, I really was looking for VERY sharpe and accurate tracing...
Still, do you really think this kind of project be better done "mouse tracing" or getting the font if possible? How much time would you spend "tracing" thoses letters (remember; 8 capitals 16" and 12 small 3.125"). Would you spend less time than I did? Close to... or more? Would had you make more money tracing" it or else?

Again, sorry if I offend, and thanks for your input in this thread. I appreciate you join in...

[artisan]

Paco. I tried your font using a screen capture method and was able to reproduce it 90% complete (3 Letters)in under TWO MINUTES. The additional cleanup required another 5 minutes....mostly deleting extraneous points on the lines. It took me under seven minutes to reproduce a professional, machineable font from your post (3 letters). Interestingly enough, I was able to build the three letters from scratch even faster in Corel in under 4 minutes due to their utter simplicity. This involved simple rectangles....one with radiused corners and use of the "Weld" command under shaping as well as rotating one rectangle with the "Transformation" command. It's a snap once you've practiced it.

You like a challenge? Challenge yourself to learn the software....D

[paco]

So, if I get it right, you first use a software tracer... Then you tryed "mouse tracing"... Which you found to be faster?!?! Right??? Thanks for your input Darrell!
Yes, I will learn more about software as I will always see myself as a beginner since this keep me learning TONS new stuff every day AND keep my attitude open to other ways and views...


Please, keep in mind that I appreciate ALL your input in this threads. But, as wrote before, I should have put this thread in the buisness section as "Which ways are faster/better to get from a "raster" file lettering from a customer to vector letter"... I did'nt plan to offend anybody. I know that I sometime sound sarcastic while debating on a question... some take it as "OH this guy wish to go deeper in the subject" while other may react as "This guy don't take what I suggest so he is wrong and don't take me seriously!!!"...

In other words (Mine...); Tabarnac les gars, c'é un forum de discussion AMICAL s'ti! Êt'e capable de rire de soi-même, et avec les autres, é un signe de maturité!!! (#!*?$ guys, this a friendly forum #!*&?$! Being able to laught at yourself, with others too, is a sign of maturity!!!)


Again, THANK YOU ALL FOR SHARING YOUR VIEWS.

Peace!

[artisan]

Paco....to clarify....NO, I did not use the mouse tracer. I simply drew rectangles and "welded" them together to form the the letters. 2 rectangles for the "T", 4 for the "E" and a radiussed rectangle with a second one "combined" to knock out the center for the "C". Afterwards, I used the "Trim" and "Intersect" tools to cut the various angles. The "Shaping" toolbar is VERY powerful. Good Luck and happy exploring....D

[paco]

Hmmm... In fact, I like your technic Darrell! Thanks for clarifying!

[dvanr]

An another option would be using this Scan 2 Cad program (http://www.softcover.com/index.htm). (by Softcover)

Keep in mind that they do not recommend using Jpegs.

May be of use to someone here


Cheers

DvanR