Indexer / 4th Axis CAM Software

[moehink@ieee.org]

I don't own a ShopBot yet, but I keep thinking up new uses to justify the potential purchase. One of the latest ideas would require the use of the indexer to rout non-symmetrical curved / twisted pieces. Picture a spiral/rope design that includes a slight curve along its length.

I currently use TurboCAD for my 3-D design. Since I would have to find appropriate CAM software, I am interested in opinions of the best tools for this application. I like TurboCAD, because it has some tools that should simplify my designs, but I recognize that I might have to consider an alternate CAD system as well.

I reviewed earlier 4-axis posts, but most of them were questions regarding specific packages. Since this is still in the idea phase, I have not completed any of the designs yet. Once this is done, I would like to generate the necessary CAD/CAM files to rout a prototype. Thanks.

Craig

[Brady Watson]

Craig,
I like DeskProto because it is easy to use and it is the only package out there that I have found that will take a file and mill it completely around 360°. There are many other packages out there that will mill a 3D file on the indexer...but there is a lot of fussing that you have to do before hand...

For instance, ArtCAM can do a round file, but this requires you to do a lot of tweaking, especially with a non-symmetrical file, to get things right. You need to move the origin to the center of the screen (0,0,0 point) and play around with unwrapping your 3D geometry...which doesn't always work out from watching others do this. VisualMill with the $1000 add-on rotary option will let you mill all the way around...but it breaks up the toolpath in 180° sections and mills one half at a time. There are other programs out too, like BobCAD and Vector with TotemPole that are less popular. As I said, I really like DeskProto for the indexer. It has a few other unique toolpathing strategies in there as well. Check it out.

If you are comfortable with doing 3D in TC, then by all means keep doing so. If you get limited in the things that you can create, Rhino is a great program for doing 3D.

Hope that helps,
-Brady

[wayneo]

Hi Brady,
Your comments about DeskProto are interesting. Can you tell me if it uses the "A" axis for the indexer?

I will certainly check it out.

Thanks,

Wayneo

[Brady Watson]

Yes, I believe that it does. You can download a fully functional demo on their site.

-Brady

[Ryan Patterson]

Yes DeskProto will use the A axis. The G code when converted will create a M4 command. But the windows SB software will not convert the Code correctly I have to use the DOS software to convert the G Code.

[tomj]

Brady, you mentioned Rhino...have you used Rhino with the 4th axis add on? If so what did you think of it? I had an evaluation version but I did not get much time to experiment with it.

I'm considering getting an indexer to do some 3d models and prototypes such as, sculptures or ornate turnings. Any input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Tom

[Brady Watson]

Tom,
I believe that you are referrring to RhinoCAM, not exactly Rhino....RhinoCAM is a CAM plugin for Rhino, that is essentially based upon VisualMill. I tried the VM demo and didn't really like it compared to DeskProto.

So to achieve what you want you can create your 3D geometry in Rhino & then export as STL. Then pull it into DeskProto and mill it in the round.

Does that help?
-Brady

[tomj]

Brady,
You're right I meant RhinoCAM...the reason that I inquired about it is, that Mecsoft has an offer running where you can get Rhino and RhinoCAM for $1500 vs. purchasing Rhino and DeskProto for a total of $2,100. I guess that my original question should have been- is it worth the extra $600?
I get the impression that DeskProto is a little more user freindly maybe?

Thanks for the quick reply by the way...this forum is the best resource I've come across!

Tom

[Brady Watson]

Tom,
The best option is for you to download demos of both and try before you buy. Since everyone has different preferences and cuts different material types, you may find that one package is a better fit for you over another one. Personally, I like DeskProto because it has some unique strategies in it...but not as many options as VM. VM gives you more options, but unless you take the time to really figure out how to use it...you'll get frustrated. I downloaded their demo, and didn't learn it in time to really get a good test out of it...too many steps to machine a part.

DP on the other hand, after tweaking the SB machine options...I was cutting a part that same day....2-sided and it was dead on the money.

Again...test drive both. See what is the best fit for you. Rhino is Rhino...I would just focus on the differences between VM Basic and DeskProto. With VisualMill (RhinoCAM) be SURE that you know EXACTLY what you are getting. Generally, 4th axis machining is a $1000 add-on to VM Basic...so it may prove that DP is a cheaper solution afterall.

Just called VM and it's a total of $2500 for RhinoCAM with 4th axis AND Rhino3. If you order 'soon' it is $1500 for RhinoCAM + $500 for Rhino3 for a total of $2000 altogether...so be careful before you plunk down your cash.

-Brady

[btk]

I use VM 5.0 at the shop, however I bought RhinoCam when it came out to have an extra seat at home. I think it is an excellent product, well integrated into Rhino, however have not tried the 4th axis plugin.

VM 5.0 offers more toolpath strategies however RhinoCam (VM Basic) offers almost everything that I need.



Brian

[hespj]

On their website it says $999 for RhinoCam:

http://www.rhinocam.com/Store/Store.shtml
................

Downloaded a copy of DeskProto but havn't been able to use it with the indexer yet.

[tomj]

Thanks for all of the feed back! I was curious as to how they compared to each other. I'll have to download them like you said, and give them a try when I get a chance.

Thanks again!
Tom

[Brady Watson]

John...Yes it does. RhinoCAM is not Rhino Modeller. It is ONLY the CAM plug-in...NOT Rhino3D Modeler AND RhinoCAM plug-in.

Did you happen to see the * footnote in RED that says: "* Does not include Rhinoceros 3.0 Modeler"...and the part that says that the 4th axis add-on is additional...Call for price?

I just called yesterday...$2k for the whole deal: Rhino3D Modeler, RhinoCAM + 4th Axis Plugin.

Pretty darn misleading if you ask me...With a name like RhinoCAM you'd think that you'd get the modeler included....apparently not.

-Brady

[hespj]

Brady, I did see that footnote, but I misinterpreted your previous post. The inclusion (or not) of Rhino is doubly important this side of the Atlantic as Rhino on it's own costs $1100 here (whereas I see it's only $560 in the States - http://www.novedge.com/Rhinoceros_Rhino.asp )

So $2000 looks very attractive for me who is looking to buy Rhino immediately and CAM software soon, preferably with 4th axis. That's if they'll sell it to me in the UK.

Do you think this package beats Rhino + DeskProto which would cost $2300 here?

[Brady Watson]

John,
It's hard to say without knowing what your application is. By all means, test drive both before you buy.

-Brady

[davidallen]

Brady,
will Deskproto use the indexer? do I need to modify the post to accommodate the 4th axis?

[Brady Watson]

Yes.

No, but you do need to FC it.

-Brady

[hespj]

Just to confuse the issue Mecsoft tell me that the complete package - Rhino,RhinoCAM, 4th axis - is $2200.

[David Arde (Unregistered Guest)]

I found a neet site for Rhino users. It has a list of all the programs and some ratings and how they work with Rhino. www2.rhino3d.com/resources/
I think that I will be trying the Rams gold software.

[hespj]

I went for Rhino + RhinoCAM + 4th axis. Much more expensive than I was planning to spend at this stage, but felt very at home with it when using the demo. I don't like DeskProto's interface and the demo version didn't have 4th axis.

Mecsoft were extremely helpful,and the packsge deal is particularly attractive for anybody in the UK with an indexer thinking of buying Rhino.

Can't wait to get going with the indexer, it's not been to succesful up till now - the indexer virtual tools have a habit of crashing the SB software. I think it might be a imperial/metric problem. In fact changing from imperial to metric and back in the SB control software often seems to cause trouble. I'm looking forward to the day I can stay in metric. But I digress.

[bill.young]

John,

How about emailing me a copy of the indexer output file that's causing the crash and a copy of your shopbot.ini file so that I can try to duplicate the problem...I hadn't heard about problems with metric units and the indexer virtual tool before.

Bill

[hespj]

Bill, if I have time over the weekend to set up the indexer I'll see what happens. I havn't made an issue out of this because I'm still not completely set up properly, so the fault might be mine. The laptop I'm temporarily using to run the SB has a 1920x1200 display, and I'm not sure I'm getting the complete picture with the SB control software. The desktop computer I plan to move to the workshop has a 1280x1024 display, and also seems to be lacking. I've probably got some settings wrong.

[bill.young]

Hey John,

I'm definately "metrically-challenged" so occasionally issues with metric units slip by me...any information that you can give me will be a help. If it turns out to be a settings issue or something confusing in the interface please pass that on as well...maybe I can find a way to make it clearer.

Bill

[hespj]

Apart from my suspicion that a metric/imperial issue is causing an indexer virtual tool crash (and I could well be wrong), I regularly have a problem changing from metric to imperial and back. Namely, metric ramp values are to high for imperial, the SB software tells me so and substitutes new figures for imperial. On changing back I am again told "parameter value above range....." and a figure substituted.

I have no doubt this is my fault. The very high resolution display I am temporarily using doesn't show the pop out tables completely - the right hand side is missing, so ramp values are a bit of guesswork at present. No doubt if I set reasonable values they would convert to and from metric okay.

The desktop computer I plan to take over to the workshop has a 1280x1024 display, and whilst it doesn't display the software perfectly, it does display the pop out tables.

(I wanted to continue this conversation under a new more suitable title, but can't see how to start a new thread).

[bob_lofthouse]

Hi John,

I've also had problems with imperial and metric, which has forced me to just use imperial until I have a enough time to figure it out.

You will find that there are quite a few posters out there who can give you advice on this subject.

Happy botting.

rob

[benchmark]

Hi Robert,

What sort of problems do you have, I have run my Shopbot in metric for over 4 years without any problems.

Regards

Paul

[gerald_d]

A fix for a metric problem mentioned here (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=312&post=34309#POST34309).