Artcam or Rhino

[stockbub]

What program would you buy for woodworking modeling? What are pros and cons?

[aaasigncom]

RHINO ISN'T AS GOOD COMPAIRED TO ARTCAM. ARTCAM IS MUCH EASIER TO USE AND THERE IS MORE HELP AND TRAINING AIDS AVILABLE. MY 2 CENTS WORTH

[Brady Watson]

They are 2 completely different animals. I use both. ArtCAM is hard to beat for relief file creation and toolpathing on a 3-axis CNC router. The intial cost seems to be a turn off for most people, but what they fail to realize is that ArtCAM will make you more money, if you spend the time to learn it and have the clientele that can appreciate your capabilities. Many times this means going after bigger and better jobs, outside the realm of who you were selling to prior to purchasing.

-B

[stockbub]

What do you use your Rhino for? I am looking at Rhinocam and Rhino Art, but I hear people say home much they use both and often times use them together.

[btk]

Martin,

I use Rhino/RhinoCam/RhinoArt extensively.
I do not have ArtCam, however from what I have seen in demo's, ArtCam is much easier to use to create releifs and is geared 100% to CNC and is a full solution out of the box.

Rhino is a general purpose modeler with the RhinoCam and RhinoArt added through a plugin.

I do a lot of Architectural/Landscape projects where I need to have full assemblies/renderings/walk-throughs showing the entire 3D scene. I can see how many components come together. I have not come up against a project where I needed to use another package or was unable to achieve what I was looking for (I also have several oth, however in some instances, things could take considerably longer that if done with ArtCam.

However if I was doing mostly signs and releifs, I think I would be investing in ArtCam or one of the Vectric Products as tru 3D representations of projects is not the goal.

If you search through the forum, I have posted examples of both RhinoCam and RhinoArt output, procfesses.

Hope that helps.

Brian

[patricktoomey]

I would also recommend ArtCam for general woodworking and sign making. I also have Rhino and Maya but use them as traditional 3D modelers leaving most of the work to ArtCam and the Vectric products which should not be overlooked.

[stockbub]

I tried to attach to file I was working on, but I cannot get it smaller then the 50K that is allowed. If you like, I can e-mail you a copy and you can let me know what you think.

[stevem]

Rhino is no capable of generating tool paths. You would have to use a CAM program such as VisualMill or RhinoCAM.

I use Rhino exlusively to design products and tooling, with RhinoCAM and VisualMill for tool paths.

I believe that ArtCAM can be used to do design and generate tool paths.

[stockbub]

Yes, the product in question is Rhino, Rhinocam and Rhino art all together. Taken together, which program would be the best one? Or are the more equal then different.

[btk]

Martin,

Both Packages have their pros/cons.

Rhino has the advantage that you can get a plugin that will extend it to do many other things (from rendering, calculations, egineering, etc).

ArtCam has the advantage that is has a more narrow focus and out of the box contains many CAM wizards for many common CNC related tasks that make creating reliefs very efficient.

If you describe what type of projects you are focusing on, then perhaps it will come to light which software package would be most cost effective for you.

Brian

[stockbub]

Let me try this again and see if I can up load this pic.


4383

[Brady Watson]

Martin,
ArtCAM is the right tool for the job to model the part you are showing. Someone very skilled in Rhino *may* be able to pull it off, but the sculpting tools in ArtCAM are unique and fluid, unlike the triangular meshes that Rhino works with.

Your other options instead of buying the program and floundering in it until you get good enough is to have someone create the 3D file for you, with or without toolpaths. Cheaper yet, you can have someone laser digitize an existing part for you and provide you with a 3D file or toolpaths ready to go.

-B

[normand]

Rhino is a nurbs modeling software .The trig mesh are use to represent geometry to export. While Rhino can import, create, display polygon mesh geometry Rhino is not a polygon mesh modeler.

[paco]

Martin,

I just happen to carve this sort of mantels. Two models. I should post about it on my blog (http://pacosarea.blogspot.com/) in the next few days or so... Here's a teaser.


4384

The other model look a little more like the one you show above (scroll-like). Since I own the models (the ones I made), chances are they'll be for sale (mail for details please)...

As far as what software you need, it really is up to you... that doesn't help you much right?! With the experience I had with ArtCAM (Insignia), they are now at the very end of my wish list... If you ask me, I really doesn't worth it's price tags (plan ahead about 9000.00$us to get start the 1200.oo$/year to be in the club). Hey, you can even get Blender for FREE! Still, it really is up to you...
I'm now way more happy with RHINO and SILO (for modeling) with a bunch of other to fill in some special purposes. People are right when they say that 3D isn't a few click away but it's at anybody-willing-to-work-hard reach.
When I'm in a hurry, I check ready made models like the one you can find at Vector Art 3D or get in touch with James via Carve 3D or a good fellow Botter like Brady.

FYI, the above shown model has been toolpath in Cut 3D with final cutout/profiling in VCP. I modeled the mantels in a mix of RHINO (base) and SILO (relief design). I spent WAY too much time on the mantel models than I should have (or a PRO would have) but... I was actually getting payed to learn! Check out gallery of various 3D modeling softwares and you'll see what they can do. You won't know until you spent a fair amount of time playing (working) with each of them... I believe that applied to ArtCAM PRO too as to get the most out of the package.

More later...

[Brady Watson]

Wow Paco...Good timing! That's not too far off what Martin is looking for.


-B

[harryball]

This 3D thing is a bummer... I've exchanged email with Brady on this as well... I just wish there was a 3D software that would allow me to create 3D relief images from a photo like in the ArtCam Pro tutorials. I'm not looking to do full scale 3D modeling work and even after looking at Rhino, Silo, ZBrush and so on nothing seems to be designed to do what ArtCam Pro does. It appears I could spend weeks learning software of which I need about 5% of its functionality or spend $7500.00 for ArtCam Pro which is not an option right now. Besides, what I have does almost all of what I need. I just want to have a few 3D items for flash.

My other issue is time... As of the end of January James is working about 1 month out. I had an idea for a project using a belfry and a bat near the end of January. I needed to be finished by the end of February so it can make the spring catalog... James couldn’t get to the modeling until the end of February so that was that, no more rush. I know I could have probably pleaded on the board and someone would have helped me out... but I really don't like applying stop-gap solutions to non-critical issues like a spec product or spreading my problems to other people unless it’s truly urgent.

Unless someone knows of a solution similar to the ArtCam Pro face wizard approach or some other easy way to model a 3D bat, I’ll send photos to James in the next few weeks as we get ideas together and go from there.

Robert

[stockbub]

Awesome work Paco. That is exactly what I will be doing with my new bot. I cannot wait to be able to create work like that and add to my cabinets. I cannot wait to see other work you have done. I have not heard of the program SILO. I have a hard time thinking about the yearly maintence with Artcam.

[danhamm]

Hey Paco..wow..nice....is that maple..or birch..and..how many hours..again...wow..

[davidallen]

Robert,

Have you considered contract consults?

Several years ago there were several posts about consults that would take a scanned image and convert it into a 3D file which could then be imported into your favorite tool path generator. Most of them were either in Canada or India and worked via email.

Turnaround seemed to be one to two days (shorter if you caught the time difference with India just right).

Cost seemed reasonable ($20 to $200) considering the hours or days needed for untrained operators to do the same and allows you to do what you know.

da

[Brady Watson]

David,
I think your reference to the 'India connection' is for wrapping 2D vectors around bitmaps only. I don't know of a 3D variant, but would love to hear if there is one.

The only reliable and quality 3D digital sculptor that I can recommend is James Booth @ www.carve3d.com (http://www.carve3d.com) - He consistently delivers exactly what you want in a 3D relief using ArtCAM. He also uses ArtCAM to create all of the popular 3D clipart over at http://www.vectorart3d.com/

Considering the resources that we have at our disposal, buying a 3D program isn't always the best choice. If you are using the bot in a business and have a need for 3D, you can buy 3D clipart for instance, use the 3DMachinist program (free for customers I believe) and write your own toolpaths...It's a pretty good deal for someone starting out to see if 3D is right for them and for one-off projects that don't justify a software's pricetag.

I don't work for any of these companies, but their reputation proceeds them in my business dealings. (and many others if you ask around)

-B

[normand]

Artcam or rhino ? http://www.mecsoft.com/Mec/Gallery/gallery.html This is the cam part of rhinocam .It show you the toolpath strategy avalaible 2 1/2 3d 4axe 5axe . I could not find these info on the art cam site .http://artcam.com/artcam/signandwood/features/default.asp This is what I found, not very helpfull like trust us we are good.People that are new to this do not know what to look for.


Delcam has many different software for different need.people whit different need use rhinocam. As for you Brady why would tell people Rhino work whit triangle? Have you tried it.

[stockbub]

Paco,
What areas of the job did you do in SILO, What is VCP? Are there other cool smaller programs to get that you can insert into these lasrger programs to make them work more eficiently?
Normand is right about the usefullness of most of these large programs. It has been like trust us. I am in Texas and have offered to pay someone for tutoring in both artcam and also in Rhino. Going to their training is just not possible right now for the 5-20% of the program that I need to learn. I have not found a lot of Artcam people in Texas, but there have been quite a few rhino users in different industries.

[Brady Watson]

Martin,
Your original question was, "What program would you buy for woodworking modeling? What are pros and cons?"

I believe the answer can only be based on a user's opinion and experience. That is what you got. When I first started getting into 3D I started with Rhino and MillWizard. Rhino for the design and MillWizard for the CAM. Rhino is much too time consuming to model architectural or intricate decorative reliefs. Yes it can be done. NO, it is NOT the best tool for creating releifs. Simple rails sweeps can create moldings and simple crowns, but what about modelling an orgainic shape? I'm sure if you did your research you would quickly find that more of the top professional architectural millworking firms use ArtCAM than Rhino by a wide margin. This isn't a 'trust me it's better because we say so'...it's just a more efficient tool for the application. I floundered for a while trying this software package and that, trying to make up for all the tools that Rhino didn't have, that ArtCAM did. Boy that was frustrating!

Normand,
I own Rhino. I use Rhino when it is a better tool for the job at hand...like prototyping full 3D furniture parts, but mostly for rendering. Thanks for reminding me that it is a NURBS modeller. When you create a complex 3D part, it shows up as a UV mesh. I get the feeling that you are a little upset with fact that I use ArtCAM. You seem to follow up every post I have about ArtCAM with a negative response. A more constructive contribution to this thread would be to show examples of work you have done in Rhino and VM. That way people can see how great it is and make their own decision.

-B

[harryball]

I'll work with James when I get my final photos together and just wait the wait.

So far as Rhino, I modeled a 3D object playing around, created a relief from a curly pattern, puffed and dished spheres etc... It's not too difficult to comprehend what is going on... but I never discovered how to pull in a photo and create a 3D relief of it. The best I can figure you have to trace your photo creating vector fields and then use the tools to build on those. I also never figured out if I could put a texture on the final product from the photo. It appears to be a tool designed to do something else that can be made to create a photo relief using brute force. Or maybe I just missed the tools to do the job.

Robert

[paco]

Brady,
Yeah, I almost fell of my chair.

Roberts,
if your really felt that you could get only 5% out of the mentioned package then stick with either James (Vector Art 3D) or a good fellow Botter (there is an whole bunch of ArtCAM user but Brady is cool!... and some say that I am too!... but I work with different tools) because I'd bet that you wouldn't get the most out of ArtCAM neither... there's no magic beyond ArtCAM, only a larger investment...

Dan,
that's Birch. I wonder if Maple (or anything else) would splint less when conventional cutting along the grain...?

Martin,
SILO been used for the designs on the mantel's (relief designs) base and the base as been modeled in RHINO; rails sweep with the proper cross cuts.
Did you get a quote on those hand carved mantels?!

Here's a quick and dirty render from Blender of the mantel base...


4385

The "grapes" (or vines) design...


4386

and the "scroll" one...


4387

I have found that working with a background sketch help a lot on modeling in subdivision like SILO.
Blender is VERY powerful yet FREE but the major problem is getting comfortable with the UI... which is in fact customizable but still, gotta learn how!
MoI is fun to play with. It's "RHINO based" (nurbs) but with a very simplified interface. It's still under beta testing but it's pretty stable for a beta.

Sub contracting 3D modeling a a nice way to go (both ways). The only problem so far for me is that most of the time I'm in rush which is an enemy.

[Brady Watson]

Paco,
The renderings look nice! I'll have to give Silo another look.

Robert,
You can get 3D from an image in Rhino by going to: Surface-->Heightfield from Bitmap & select the picture that you want. You'll have to play around with the settings (make sure they are high enough...like 200X200 with depth of .125")

Here's a pic of the moon from the web:

4388

...and here's a part of the heightfield in Rhino:

4389

Here's a close-up of the NURBS surface mesh with control points turned on. You can manipulate the surface with the control points, like a big 3D collection of vectors:

4390

-B

[paco]

Brady,

rendered in Blender (YAFRAY engine)... still would/could look good in SILO too though. Just barely getting started at rendering in Blender and I can tell ya it's an whole other world!... but I've seen breath taking rendered 3D models around that just got me so jealous! Just check out Dasch's work (http://www.vectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1069&postdays=0&postorder=asc&star t=0)! All modeled in SILO and rendered in XSI.

I believe I could have done the "scroll" design in nurbs but SILO work flow (the mouse and keyboard intergration) is WAY cool! I can't wait to get into sculpting when SILO 2 get out of beta stage!

[stockbub]

Paco,

I downloaded blender, but not installed it yet. Is this program like Rhino or just has certain good features. What about Silo, what areas is it good at?

[paco]

Martin,
whenever I buy something (tools) I read the user manual/instructions booklet....
Have you check out Blender features pages (http://www.blender3d.com/cms/About%20Blender.20.0.html)? Please, do browse the whole Web site to learn about it. Check the gallery, browse the Blender artist forum, download all the tutorials you can find and look 'em over and over... Same for SILO. SILO has two different trial offer; start with the learning version.

If some words or concept doesn't make sense search Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/). It may feel like learning a new language at first if you're just getting started but hang on. I'll more than happy to answer more specific questions.

Blender has many tool to work with from nurbs to subdivision modeling 3D tools to vector fonts and bezier curves. Blender can do WAY more than just model... check it out!
SILO is a subdivision (mesh) based modeling application with it's own special tools set. You can still extrude, lathe and such but it's really is a mesh modeling application.

You may, at some point, feel that most other user are not CNC modeling oriented but they still can help you learning the tool.

Here something else (unfinished; no pelvic fins) that I've modeled in SILO and rendered in Blender...


4391

This is one of my very first model I made in SILO... AFTER I mastered the basic that is.

If you're new to 3D modeling, I'd suggest to leave Blender for a moment and play with such as SketchUp (polygonal based - I believe), MoI (nurbs based) and SILO learning version (fully working - limit to 100 polygons and no pluggins). You may want to ask Robert for MeshCAM Art trial license (http://www.grzsoftware.com/download.php) (I don't know where he is at the development stage though...).

[stockbub]

OK, here is a basic question, but it is the play on words that I am trying to comprehend. By modeling, you are refering to the actual drawing and creating the file. Rendering is where the program takes the drawing and turns it into the 3d "Solid" object. You said you had Rhino. Does Rhino do what Silo does as far as modeling? or just the opposite, does Silo do what Rhino does? ANd let me tell you how appreciative I am with all the help you, Brady, Robert, and the rest of the guys have been. It was very frustrating today, my new shopbot has been delayed AGAIN.................... I think it is suppose to ship next week now. That has given me time to really look at these programs.

Bubba

[Brady Watson]

Martin,
Yes. By 'modelling' we are talking about creating a 3D geometric file (regardless of the means...NURBS, pixels, polygonal meshes etc). That is considered the CAD portion of the 3D process.

'Rendering' refers to the process of taking these shapes and making them look pretty by adding visual textures and materials like wood, shiny plastic or modifying how the light hits the model and at what angle. Aside from making it look good to show your customer, it is of no relevence to the 3D process.

The next important part is the CAM portion to create toolpaths for machining the model. Some packages, like ArtCAM do both. Others just do design/modelling and some just do CAM.

Silo, Blender, Rhino and others can create 3D shapes. Whether or not the interface and tools are going to be suited for the work you are doing, is questionable & totally up to you. Some are more efficient than others...some are free, many of the better ones are not free. There are pros and cons to all of them. It all depends on what you really need. If just want to try 3D, you will (or already have) MillWizard included in the purchase of your tool. It is CAM only (machining)...You can take models created in any of the programs in question, import them into MW and create toolpaths to machine the part. If you need 3D content, there are tons of files on the web that you can download for free or for a fee, depending on what you really need.

-B

[paco]

Modeling:

-Paco: drawing in 3D, creating stuff around the virtual working area.

-Wikipedia: solid modeling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_modelling%20%20)


Rendering:

-Paco: sort of capturing the 3D view port into a 2D image for showing off.

-Wikipedia: Rendering (computer graphics) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_%28computer_graphics%29)


You can do pretty much the same things in both kind of modeling. The two have different tools set so work differently with some similarities. RHINO can handle mesh while SILO cannot handle nurbs entities. But RHINO is not well suit (equipped) for modeling mesh. Blender use both ways of modeling and more.
Nurbs modeling was there way before subdivision appear around. People tend to believe that nurbs is for solid/mechanical/engineering stuff while subdivision is for artsy stuff like movie and video games characters. I've seen very nice solid stuff made in subdivision modeling (http://www.silo3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8883) and I've seen very sexy things done in nurbs (http://gallery.mcneel.com/?language=en&g=9) ...

Check out this primer. (http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/wiki/tiki-index.php)

Teaser on modeling... (http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=132)

[jeffreymcgrew]

For what it's worth, Blender just got Sculpting tools. They rock. Not as nice as Z-Brush or Artcam Pro, but free is free. If you want to check them out you'll need to download the latest beta (which will be out very soon). I posted on my blog about it here: http://becausewecan.org/node/258

Haven't had time to carve anything with it yet, tho...

[stockbub]

Jeffrey

Which program is the beta in Blender? Which subcategory do I look under?

[rhfurniture]

Paco - rhino4 has mesh manipluation tools - have you tried the beta?

R.

[paco]

Martin,
Blender 2.42 is the current stable release. 2.43 is still under testing (release candidate) but should release soon. (http://www.blender3d.com/cms/Changes_since_2_42.771.0.html) That's the whole package.

R. (sorry, I cant remember your name),
no but I'm aware of it. I wish I could see some SS of the new functions in action...

[normand]

Hey Brady dont take this to seriously I only want to make botter aware of the difference betwin the 2 software. All the talk above is only about the cad part. It would be helpfull to know the cam part of artcam , what are the toolpath option? Also in that moon crater example you are again mixing mesh and nurb. When you get highfeild from picture you get mesh NOT nurbs. no wonder you find it hard to work with rhino. Same thing when you scan you get mesh not nurbs. Again rhino is not good at working with mesh . Showing my work with rhino would not help much I never say I was good at it. And for my work on the shopbot for the last couple of year has been for movie, they design I cut and they dont like us putting pic up before the movie is out. Evevtualy you check the old town, the gasebo the disco and ... in The film (I AM NOT THERE) story of Bob Dyland coming out I dont know when. Also check the the control room in the movie (War GAMES2) coming out eventuly.
Great work Jeffrey glad to see someone using Blender. When I first inquire about it a few year back in this forum I have been told that it was not good to do model to cut on shopbot. So not knowing about 3d I trusted the info on this forum. Glad this is working for you.

[rhfurniture]

Paco, Its Ralph (some saint or other in St Pauls Cathedral London apparently)
TBH I just downloaded Rhino4beta to see where they were going with it - I am not a fully upto speed user - just have it for the parts others cannot reach. They did say there was construction history tracking (other than the usual undo/redo), but I cannot see any obvious useage of it.
Anyone with a RH2 or RH3 serial number can download it and try.

R.

[rhfurniture]

4392

[stockbub]

With beta version of blender, can you save it as a whatever, and then bring it into like Rhino or artcam for further adjustments, and then to Visual Mills or RhinoCam or other cam software for tooling?

[paco]

Thanks Ralph.

Still, those are rather basic tool set to edit and model mesh object... still an improvement anyway.

Martin,

Blender export quite a bunch of model (file) formats; see it under 'File/Export/' Menu. You can even convert an object of about any kind to another kind in Blender itself.

[jeffreymcgrew]

I've exported Blender models as .stl to bring into Millwizard for carving: http://becausewecan.org/node/179

Cut3D would be the better choice now, but at the time I didn't know about it.

Blender itself has no CAM abilities. However, it does have a very nice API, that's all Python and open, so it's not like someone couldn't write a plugin ala RhinoCAM for it someday.

[normand]

Seriously rhino4 is coming out anyday here a quick look a the update with short video of many command .It will explain nurbs a lot better than I could ever do http://www.rhino3d.com/4/editing.htm

[normand]

I would not want to influence anyone even less my friend ,at best inform them so they can make their own choice. Face it would you have buy part wizzard? I posted this pic once made with (zbrush) www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/32/688.jpg The link is here on the forum it is free . .All this cnc is relativly new even to 3 or 4 yearold oldtimer. We dont know what is next ,But I would like to take my software with me, after all the time I spend to learn it. This is my last post in this forum, I leave you with this page full of great artist, maybe you in a near future
www.scantech.dk/showpage.asp?page=348&root=3


Salut
Normand Blais

[stockbub]

What do you mean, take the software with you. Also, Rhino 4 is not combatable with CAM programs yet, John at Rhino said it would be several months to get this corrected.

[richtech]

Hello guys, I am new to this blog site, so I apologize.

I own a machine shop, and have a couple VF-4 Superspeed 3-axis CNC milling machines. I generally use Surfcam CAD/CAM software because my customers want precision-machined component parts. However, I have some personal projects that are more "artist" driven that I would like to make. I bought a seat of Artcam Pro v.5.509c a few years ago, but have come to the realization that my brain does not work with the artistic software very well.

Is there anyone that would like to work together in regards to software design work exchanged for some of my CNC time? I would also be willing to pay for for some Artcam design work without a trade. Or, I would also entertain the thought of trading my Artcam software for a set amount of design work. I also have a seat of MillWizard to generate code on the finished design work, if converting into another format for my Surfcam is too much hassle.

If anyone is interested in any of these options, please e-mail me directly, as I will probably not check this blog as often. My e-mail is jdebruin@new.rr.com (mailto:jdebruin@new.rr.com)
Thanks,
John De Bruin

[dingenis]

open source software, modelling and rendering
hi,
posting in a very old post.sorry i just saw this and thought i post this FYI.
news about Blender , open source software.
the "blender foundation" in amsterdam just has made a full animation movie called BIG BUCK BUNNY, done in Blender, competing with studios like pixar.its in the pre_selection for Cannes filmfestival.Costs 150.000 euro!(with help of amongst others sun microsystems, sponsoring )Next month the movie can be downloaded on internet.Use of caracters etc. is free. no "restrictions".(this is a summary of a local newspaper article, sat.19 april, het parool amsterdam,netherlands,).
grt.
dingenis