Artcam tutorials

[phil_o]

Artcam.com has posted excellent video tutorials for Artcam Pro and Insignia on their website. I learned many new tricks very quickly. If your new to these programs the videos are quite helpful.

[joe]

Phil,

Thanks for the heads up on the videos.

I have been using Insignia for about three years but was a little confused by the video. Perhaps it was a little too fast for me.

If you care to review the 3D movie, the last portion was doing prism letters. I just couldn't figue how they revmoved the background from the demo sign, then did the prism letters on that This would mean that the letter and the backgound would be the same height. It can't happen this way.

It really seems too slick. I just don't think it's possible unless there is another complete background pass. Is this true slight of hand?

Joe

[phil_o]

I see why your confused, it appears that they cut into the letters but the final product looks like they cut away the background. Magic I guess.

[paco]

Hey guys!

Are you (both) refering to http://www.artcam.com/videos/2DCNC.htm (engraving.exe) video file?
If not, what "3D" video?

[t_fiddler]

Joe
I have been working on prismatic letters for my concrete forms.
I may be wrong, but it seems that the program in Insignia is set up for "cutting out" the letters.
I have been setting a profiling tool (have to) but not using it
I just area clear all the background area AFTER cutting the letters with a V Bit.
I'm pretty pleased with the results.....But the software is confusing on this process.
I'll post some pics if needed

Call me with questions
Thanks
Tom

[btk]

Tom,

I have used the V-Bit with Profile method for molds as well
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/2/5167.html?1114647420#POST23788

However I have found that certain letters and fonts will require additional passes as voids remain in certain spots where the v-bit will not reach (particulary where there is a cross in the letter e.g. "X")

In these instances, I end up using a ball end mill to contour the letters.

Brian

[phil_o]

Joe,
You said you've been using Insignia for three years. I have Part Wizwrd II. I'm wondering if Insignia is worth the $3,000 price tag. I know it depends on what I will do with it. But I'd like to know if it has been worth it for you.

[stickman]

Joe,

I'd like to know as well. Phil, how do you like PW II over PW I.

Jay

[paco]

Hi all!

Is this that some are looking for to achieve?


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One can easily clean up intricate inside corners with partial toolpath from other strategie...


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Phil,

why don't you give it a try so you could judge by yourself (download the trial version; this would give you a personal point of view)... as for me, I would say that it is worth IF you can afford it AND if you believe to have enought jobs for... it is quite an amount of $$$ but it bring one to a whole new level of possibility...

[phil_o]

Jay, in my opinion PWII is worth the extra $100. I'm used to CAD programs that make drawing an object much easier than PW does(either version). The added drawing features in PWII add more versatility to the program.

[phil_o]

Paco,
I'll definitely take your suggestion. I'd like to know what people who have been using Insignia for a while think. When you live with something for a few years you know what how well it serves your purpose.

[paco]

Phil,

I do not own Insignia for years yet... but I can tell that I can now do new kind of "things" that I was limited with PW 2... more "things" and faster... you'll notice with the trial.

[phil_o]

Thanks Paco.

[joe]

Phill & Paco

Paco,

ArtCam does very nice work of incised letters, but so does Rams, Signlab, Enroute and others at half the price. My major routing complaint with ArtCam is raised prism letters. So lets see if I can explain. The program is incapable of doing thick and thin letters correctly. Here's what I mean. Lets take Times New Roman Bold. The letter M or R. If you set the depts of the bit to do the prism on the wide portion of a letter, there won't be any serif letf. It will grind them smooth off. Nothing Left. What the program should do is raise, or articulate the bit up and away, as it comes to the thin parts, just as it does in V Carveing.

Lets say you have a really neat script that has voulume, or a broad stroke, along with deliclate little whipey ends. Poor ArtCam will mess it up really, really good.

I've begged Delcam, pleaded with them, and conjoled. They just don't seem to care enough to proceed on.

Doug R. tells me that Enroute does the job right.

Perhaps once you see what I'm talking about, a post to Delcam would get us a better program.


I really like Artcam for some things but I wouldn't buy it again. The very best part of ArtCam is Shopbot Support........ There the only reason I've stayed in there.

What I would really love is someone, on this forum, tell me how to do raised Roman or Script prism letter!

Joe

[paco]

Joe,

maybe I'm missing something about your issue but... how does this look like?


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I can show more about it...

By the way, bevel carving strategie does'nt involve any 3D moves... it is only calculated 2D profiling pass... unless one know about a software that sharpen inside corners in this kind of strategie... which I personnaly only needed a VERY few occasions...

[joe]

Paco,

I am very encouraged with the 2D I'm looking at.

My hours trying to solve the problem, which it looks as if you have, has been to go to the Prism Logo in ArtCam, set all the parameters such a bit, material, etc and calculate the code. But still the bit removes too much of the thin letter parts.

Have you ever tried doing a Times Roman Bold "W"?

Thank you very much for taking the time to work with me on this.

Joe

[paco]

Hi Joe!

I can't remember of this "Prism Logo in ArtCAM"... but using this strategie should'nt be a problem at all (in fact PW can do this too, it just won't calculate small V-bit tool offset pass); it should'nt remove anything else than what it is supposed to... With all the example I've showed in this thread, I've used a "2D Area Clearance" to remove the surrounding material. Thoses letter could easily be cutout too... the profiling part of the Bevel carving strategie is redundant if you plan on to clear the surounding material like I did now...

Anyway here a Capital Times New Roman "W" with different setting:

Thoses are with a 90 deg. V tool bit...


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...and thoses are with a 135 deg. V tool bit.


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Here something I've seen around here made by some sign buisness...


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Engraving strategie give you a whole lot more features...

I must confess that I'm a little decived by the ArtCAM support myself; I'm currently trying to solve an issue with 60 deg. V tool bit (in fact anything narrower than 90 deg.) using the V carving and Engraving strategie with multiples pass. It leave tool marks whatever I try and sometimes steps which are not acceptable as a cosmetic and a pratical (sanding intricate details) point of view... it's been about a couples of weeks now that I'm waiting in vain for assistance, help, support, encouragement, solution, comprehension, a hand... snif... anyway I should hear from 'em someday...

Still, I kinda like the software... but I'm not blindly sold to DELCAM... many others are available... but are they better?!... after spending a moment playing with the tool?!

Feel free to ask if I can be of any more help.

8-)

[joe]

Thanks Paco,

Ok here is what I'm seeing.

First if you put this under the router, using a 6" letter, the broader stroke would raised approx. half an inch. The thin stroke wouldn't only be 1/8 high. If you wanted to profice this as a letter, it wouldn't hold together, unless you were using aluminum.

Sencond is the programs won't tell the bit to pick in the corners. Artcam just profiles the the letter with no articulation up and down. There won't be anything of the serifs

Prism letters, that are have 1/2" off surface height on the broad stroke should also be the same thickness on the thin strokes.

It won't make me mad if you think I'm crazy. But this how we make our living. I purchased ArtCam for this process and it's a financial loss to me. Big dissapointment.

Again I thank you for your experties. I know how good you are.

Joe

[paco]

Joe,

"First if you put this under the router, using a 6" letter, the broader stroke would raised approx. half an inch. The thin stroke wouldn't only be 1/8 high. If you wanted to profice this as a letter, it wouldn't hold together, unless you were using aluminum."

Got that right; some designs (and fonts) wont be easy to handle out of some material... this as to be considered.

"Sencond is the programs won't tell the bit to pick in the corners. Artcam just profiles the the letter with no articulation up and down. There won't be anything of the serifs."

Your right again... about Bevel carving though; Engraving strategie WILL sharpen the inside corners... that what you would wish for right...

"Prism letters, that are have 1/2" off surface height on the broad stroke should also be the same thickness on the thin strokes."

I don't get this one?!...

"It won't make me mad if you think I'm crazy. But this how we make our living. I purchased ArtCam for this process and it's a financial loss to me. Big dissapointment."

Have you heard of a software that would do ALL of what your looking/wishing for?...

"Again I thank you for your experties. I know how good you are."

...just trying to get the most out of this piece of software! One have to go behond the "limit" of a software to benefit as much as possible for is spending... this is no critism of any kind but rather an advice that I've try to follow myself when I use a software. I often tell myself that I COULD be better than the actual editor to find my own solution(s)... this keep me digging more into all the fuctions and tool available.

I've looked at the other "big ones" but was'nt much more pleased... more money for, too often, less... with just one VERY short month for testing and playing; I just can't spend 31 days full time testing and trying software. This policy should be reviewed I believe.

[joe]

Paco,

I will see if I can find time tomorrow to make a letter, photograph it, and send you a jpeg.

Dale Kerr and I have worked against this problem in the past until he left ArtCam for I believe Enroute. He's happy with the change. You could give him a call.

I just can't sell the ArtCam product to my architects, or concrete foundry people. So I'm stuck.

Will sell Insignia at a very reduced price once I get permession from Delcam.

Good Luck to you.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

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[paco]

Joe,

I'd be curious to see a pic demonstrating the issue you have with Insignia...

I've looked at Enroute "familly" and they are higher priced than ArtCAMs... and from the infos they provide, it's hard to tell what the software is actually capable of... Maybe Dale could join to tell about his view on this...

You should be able to get rid of your lisence easily; but there is a "transfer fee" I believe...

I might give a try for MasterCAM router soon... I'll keep you (all) informed of my findings... Expen$ive, but the reputation is there...

Just keep in mind that nothing's perfect... else than your well saved money?!?!?

[joe]

Paco,

I must appologize for my tardiness with making you a sample piece. Pressure from work.

Attached are a couple of samples which you might give you a better idea. One of these photo's was sent to me after our conversation with concerning the varying depth of a prism letter. As stated before, you should be able to lay a ruler across the top of a letter for flatness. Otherwise it will be dirstorted. That was sent to me for Paul Nielsen. He's using Enroute. It doesn't clean up any intersections however

I have another sample which was made by Dan Boranian. I have circled the intersection area's where Insignia misses. It just goes around leaving an ugly hole.

I spoke with Dale K. today. He's doing well with his new business. He's using Profile Lab and is happy there. It will clean out those intersection I mentioned before. The photo I'm sending has little circles every where ArtCam will misses. I'm sure he would enjoy discussing the software strength and weaknesses with you.

But far and away is the destruction of serifs and of the thinner storkes.

Joe
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[paco]

Hi Joe!

"...you should be able to lay a ruler across the top of a letter for flatness. Otherwise it will be dirstorted."

I don't understand this one...

"It just goes around leaving an ugly hole."

...neither this one.

This prismatic "A" sure looks good (the design)...

How do you like this one?


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Still, there might be better software than Insignia for this purpose but for just how much?!... and what will they be missing that another have?!... As said, I'm not blindly sold to ArtCAM; still looking...

[joe]

Paco,

Please run a prism file and you will understand. The serifs will be depressed along with the thin strokes. It just grinds them away. The severity has to do with the broadest stroke on a letter.

The photo on the left is the way it should be.

Joe

[joe]

Paco,

ArtCam Insignia may work very well for you. I am now waiting to get a demo model of Profile Lab. It's about the same cost as Insignia.

They are all too expensive. It still doesn't seem right that Delcam wants to be paid for a transfer of ownership.

I wondder if Signlab has the same restrictions?

Joe

[ron brown]

The real shame is you have spent a great deal of time and money on a product that does not do what you need done. Now you are forced to sell it - at a discount - AND ask for permission.

I quit using AutoDesk prouducts because of the way they treated their customers when the software switched from DOS to Windoze I had a complete 3D set of software I had about $6,000 invested in over several years. AutoDesk, in a gesture of good will, offered AutoCAD lite at a discount to "thier valued customers", as I remember the phrase. The discount did not take the cost of the upgrade, uh downgrade - in power, to the 'street' cost but was lower than retail.

I can see how the attitude of wanting to reclaim sales cost could occur to a company. I don't understand how they can't see the negative of a license transfer. My attitude would be more "hope it finds a good home". The solution might be to have a ticket for training that could go with a new software purchase.

If some CAD/CAM software company would make a good product and had customer service like ShopBot, I believe they would have a solid base that WOULD buy the true upgrades. It would be an amazing organization.

Ron

[paco]

Hi Joe!

Since the left picture is from the top, I still don't get it... sorry... but I do have noticed that it has it's inside corners sharpened.

Here the same Time News Roman "K" from a previous post out of foam... how does it look?


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I do have found some part of Insignia that does'nt satisfied me up to the money I've spent on it, but I believe that the only way to actually be sure that ANY software will do what one is looking fo is to actually buy it and test/use/play with it for a moment... before that it's only assumption to any out there... suprises about each one is to be discovered; no reseller nor rep. will tell you about it...

Please Joe, do keep us informed about Profile Lab; I've look at the info on the WWW site last evenning and it sound... OK... but it look to be limited to 2D ad "2 1/2D"... right? I might look for a local reseller if I can get a trial of it...

Ron,

I fully agree with you. The other day, as I was discovering a P'etty cool piece of imaging software (that is THE GIMP), I was wondering if a such CAD/CAM package could be made from "Open source/Free software" kind of attitude... this could be a quite slap to the commercial editors out there... and may well be just a better tool too!

[paco]

Joe,

are you saying that the machined letter does look as the simulation; is that the problem? If so the problem must about something else...

[joe]

Paco,

I sparked to the notion the demo version you are trying out is a preview only. If so I can send you the "W" with the G code for you to run.

The viewing model does to some extent show the lowered thin strokes, but it's much more dramatice when carved.

Let me know if you want that file.

Joe

[bleeth]

Guys: The W looks like the toolpath strategy was all one v-bit and the A looks like it was either a much steeper bit or a small round bottom bit or a two bit system more as a constant height relief than a v carved prism. In the K as shown it is clear that the upper arm is in a lower plane than the other two major elements but the only way to bring it's height up to the rest would be a steeper wall and therefore a totally different cutting strategy and time to mill.

Dave

[bill.young]

Joe,

Maybe I'm not understanding this, but don't the narrower sections HAVE to be lower if they're cut with a v-bit? If you wanted them to be the same height then wouldn't the bit angle have to change?

Or are these being cut like a regular 3d file, with a small bit and a lot of toolpath passes?

Bill

[gerald_d]

*post deleted*

[paco]

Joe,

you can send the file to and I'll have a look at it...

I have lisenced version of the latest Insignia and the machined parts are alike the simulation... the simulation just does'nt have the hairs and dust around... and sometime some toolmarks; but that might be about the cutter's grind... All of what I simulate in Insignia WILL be machined respectivly.

All of I shown so far in this thread is mostly 'Bevel carving' strategie and the last one is 'Engraving'... using a V tool bit and sometime a straight bit for 'Area clear' and/or 'Profiling'...

This one (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=31&post=24830#POST24830) is 'Engraving' with a V 60 deg. and I've "Cleared" the surounding material for a good demonstration...

[joe]

Bill,

That's right. Excellent pick up on your part. Correctly beveled letters have a pitch on the serifs and thin strokes that's much steeper, while the wide strokes have less bevel.

Perhaps a way ArtCam could simulate this would be for the bit to raise up when it begins moving tword the smaller area's. There by, not reducing their vertical height. While this doesn't change the angle of cut, at least it wouldn't grind them away as Paco's photo's clearly demonstrate.

Here's how I've been able to, kind of, use ArtCam for beveling: Set the Z high enough to route only the thin strokes and serifs, leaving the body to be hard carved. That way I can chisel the body, and sharpen up the intersections.

I know most folks don't understand what I've been talking about as they aren't familiar with the architecture of letters. It's an exacting historic product that's done every day by foundry's around the world. Once your on to it's very plain to see.


Thanks again.

Joe

[joe]

Dave & Bill,

You would think it is necessary for a V bit to reduce some parts of the letters, but Enroute has a an optional function to keep all the surfaces level. Profile Lab. has an automatic function to bevel carv the inside of letters.

We are probably close to one of these companys coming up with a good prism program.

O, incidently, the beveled "S" illustration on the ArtCam Insignia Instruction manual was done in PhotoShop, and can't be done by by Insignia. That's close to false advertising.

Joe

[gerald_d]

Joe, is it starting to become clear that you want to have a variable bevel angle - in other words, something that cannot be achieved with one V-bit for all the bevelling work?

I cancelled my post above when I realised there is a better way to clear the confusion around this issue, but I did not have time then to do the pics (daughter's 21st birthday dinner):


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The blue stuff is the upper ridge of the bevel, the white is the lower edge of the bevel. Basically, the blue ridge line is the center of the stroke of the font.

The program writers have two options when writing the program for a fixed angle V-cutter:

1. Decide that the white line is at a fixed z-height and bevel upwards from there. This is what Paco illustrated, and what most of us seem to understand is the normal thing to do.

2. Decide that the blue line is at a fixed z-height and bevel downwards from that "center line". This is what Joe seems to want?

Anyway, I've added references to make a detailed discussion easier.

[bleeth]

Joe: If all the top surfaces were level and you used only one v-bit for profiling and one straight bit for cutting out then all of your thinner strokes would have higher straight walls. A more complicated strategy resulting in the variable pitch angles you seem to want is not possible in Insignia from what I can see. It is doable in Pro using a ball end bit and enough time. I understand that Pro is quite a bit more expensive and if this were the only feature I needed in it it would probably be difficult for me to justify.
I have a feeling the constant height option in Enroute results in the high straight walls. The cleaning up of inside corners is also restricted by the geometry of the bit.
I just did a logo with raised round top letters and where the width tapered down and therefore the height reduced to a final point painting it was a real chore particularly as the field is textured. Next time I do it I will change the height to a constant.
You may be able to get some input from other Insignia users on the Insignia forum. I read a post there where someone was discussing using a steeper v bit for the narrower strokes in order to accomplish close to what you are trying.
I try to keep my designs down to a max of one bit change since precise z-zeroing can be such a time killer and blow-outs really tick me off.

Dave

[joe]

Gerald,

Wow I really like the colors you added to the illustration. How did you do that?

About the bevel angle. I understand that's not possible. I don't expect that. What could solve the problem is for the bit to raise up when doing thinner area's. Second it needs to do sharp corners at the intersections. This is the correct way to do it. Please see my photo with the circles above.

Dave,

I was talking to Dale Kerr about these issues yesterday. He assures me Profile Lab does clean out the corners. Above I posted a photo, which was sent to me from a Paul Nielsen, which shows a constant height. You may be right about the wall height. When I do it by hand this is the affect.

Dang I'm so sorry this has taken so long to explain. I guess the only way for me to get this clear is a series routed, hand carved letters.

Any municipal building with prism letters is a classic example of the way it should be done. I'm not really concerned if a computer programmer has problems writing a proper code. I just don't like paying $3000 and then have to go back to doing it the old way, by hand.

Joe

[btk]

Joe: This webpage might illustrate for you what you are trying to show.
http://www.letra-tek.com/page/page/338916.htm

[bill.young]

Great link...makes it very clear

[gerald_d]

And also clear to me that no software package is going to treat that as a simple problem for a V-cutter.

[paco]

...maybe with a 5 axis router!


...still got to find to right software!

[bleeth]

Joe: The funny thing is that for $3000-$4000 Sign makers software is some of the least expensive industry specific design packages out there. Architecturals and Cabinet packages typically go for 6-10 as do sculpturals. And in each case users find out that although they do a lot they don't do it all. Come to think of it neither did anyone I ever hired!!
Since I have looked over your work a few times and really respect your artisanship I would say that for the true prismatics, if your clients are willing to go for the $, just charge them for the hand work and appreciate the opportunity to keep your tools sharp and classic skills used.

Dave

[gerald_d]

The raised prismatic letter, of the style that Paco illustrated, can done with very cheap software (freeware). It is much simpler than incised (sunken) V-carving.

[joe]

Dave,

I have to agree with you on all points.

The routing programs, I have three, are only part of the cost of the software needed to do my work. The design program we use most is Flexisign Pro, another $3000, then there, Rams, and Parts Wizard, along with Illustrator, Corell, and Photoshop, and the latest digitzing tablets and software.

Of all my purchases, the only one I feel let me down with was ArtCam, and that was mainly with prism letters. It's not much on illustrating either. Not very powerful.

I really do love hand carving those signs and letters, but I can see an end to my ability to continue on doing that. I'm 65 now and reality is setting in. Shopbot has made my business and product so much better. It's opened doors doing projects I'd never dreamed of doing. If I had to do without my router I'd probably just retire. It's a strong and creative tool for the artist.

Thank you so much for the nice complement.

Your friend

Joe

[joe]

I finally took the time to cut a couple of Times Roman letters. One by hand and the other using Insignia.

I think you will be able to see the distortion, enen though I stopped the router before it totally reduced the thin leg of the A to nothing.
Please the fatter part of the letter is flat, not prismed.

Also note the rounded out area at the top inside corner.

Joe

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[joe]

Lets try again.

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[joe]

The A on the upper right and the A beneath it show the difference between todays machine product and the correct way it should be done.

As I said before, the machine A wouldn't even have a left leg had I not stopped the process. There is a good half inch flat spot on the wide stroke. Center A's are correct and The Chri script is impossible to do in Insignia.

Give em a try.

Joe

[paco]

Joe,

the machined "A" has a flat top because the toolpath is actually truncated; either your material was'nt thick enought for the cutter included angle or the wall height... try it in the same material (thickness) with a wider V tool, say a 120 deg.

This golden "A" was either made by hand or with a "Point round over" bit... and it's sure not prismatic as far as I'm concerned...

About the "Chris" script...


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...from Insignia. Rounded over edges and profiled. Making 'em prismatic would'nt have been a problem at all...

Still, if you find a VERY good software; talk about it... I'm (we are) all ears (eyes)... Insignia is a good software as far as you like it; no more.

[joe]

Nice Work Paco,

Yes you can do any block or even thickness letter. The gold letter is that but the serifs are saved.

In all fairness Insignia won't perform well on, lets say a 7" Times Bold, Caslon Heavy, Palatino Bold, or any Classic weighted font.

You must have had a very small to get into corners, and expecially on the curley Q of the P.
I guess thats why the tops are flat.
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[larryk (Unregistered Guest)]

Hi all, I know this is not the place to put this ,but I need some help. I am doing some 3d slicing and need to hold the parts in place. Is there any way to tab the parts in place? Or do I have to draw them in. any help would be great! buy the way this is for tabing reliefs.

[larryk (Unregistered Guest)]

sorry I am using artcam

[billp]

Larry,
You would just use "bridges" when cutting those reliefs, the same way you'd do for any other files. After you have done your profile toolpath you can add as many bridges as you'd like, aa well as where you'd like them to be......

[larryk (Unregistered Guest)]

The 3d sliceing is going all the way down to the table. there is no profile pass to add tabs in 2d? thanks for the fast reponse

[billp]

Then what you CAN do is change your depth of slice, and leave a full length "bridge/tab" of .02" around the entire perimeter of the piece (what material are you carving?). If it's a foam you can simply cut through it with a razor knife. If it's wood you would THEN do a profile cut and set your bridges in that file.
Just "lie"to the software; if your real depth of cut should be 2", make your slices at 1.98"...

[larryk (Unregistered Guest)]

Thanks, One thing I did try is doing a fake 3d cut out. Then add tabs,did the relief tool path. I will see if it picks it up? this is for glue ups like a nose,pimple,ect.But if all else fales I will do like you said. thanks!