Corel vs Illustrator

[jemelby]

<preface>
I am doing my research prior to purchasing a SB. This post (like my last) revolves around software issues.
</preface>

It would seem that CorelDraw is the tool of choice for artistic design amongst engineering types. 90% of my experience is with raster images in Photoshop, so I will have to make a leap to a vector based system like CorelDraw or Illustrator. Being familiar with Photoshop, the logical choice is Illustrator. However, I also like to be as compatible as possible.

I would like to hear from some folks that have used both. I believe that .ai files are digestable by SB conversion programs to generate tool paths. Are there other compatibility issues?

Am I even talking sense here? Thanks.

[garbob]

Hi James,

I certainly am not promoting Corel Draw, BUT, if you do anything with sign shops, it seems to be the defacto standard.

My only other advice is this. Try demos of cad programs and draw programs (illustrator, corel draw, etc).

It has been my experience that if you like cad, you'll hate draw programs and visa versa. If I had to use cad I would simply sell my machine and move on.

It seems that most cad types also like to get right down in there editing code, etc. AND they all seem to love Vector Cad/ Cam.

I use v11 of Corel Draw and also have v8 of Illustrator that I only use for it's import of dxf files when nothing else will work. Corel is also quite good with this release although many times the files are intact but about 100 times too small.

ArtCam insignia has so far been the best at importing dxf files, but I have a tough time using it for design. I do all drawings and editing in Corel Draw (as Insignia is about the clunkiest design program that I have ever seen, probably if I was a cad guy I'd love it) but this causes many problems such as loops and non closed vectors when I use Insignia for generating the cut files.

My free advice is this - find out if you're a cad guy or a draw guy. That's the biggest decision! I suspect that since you have been using photoshop you will not be a cad person!

Gary

[jemelby]

Thanks for the spot-on response. 100% light, no waste heat.

As I read your response, I caught myself moving my head in a north-south direction.

From time to time, as a wood worker, I try out demo versions of the latest crop of CAD programs. I even get the occational boot-leg copy (gasp) of AutoCAD to check out. I own a legal copy of AutoSketch, and am quite proficient with it. It seems to be more suitable for simple "new plan validation", which is what I use it for. The heavy wieghts, even AutoCAD lite, are way to complicated, and are designed for industrial uses that I will never need.

I see that CorelDraw has a trial version, and the full version is ~$350.00. Very reasonable. I wonder if they offer an competitive Illustrator upgrade.

Thanks for the advice.

p.s. I looked at your profile, and see that you registered over 4 years ago. how long do you have to be here befor your not a "New Member?"

[gerald_d]

There are too many words and (contentious) ideas here so far, so let's keep it simple.....

The "gateway" that leads to simple CAM is a .dxf file. In another thread there is concern about G-code as an industry standard - well, .dxf is the industry standard for vectorised CAD files. The simple advice is, get the graphics program that will give you a .dxf. I don't believe that your decision need to be any more complicated than this.

If that waste heat comment refers to another post of mine, then I am out of this.

[mikejohn]

I go with Gerald on this.
Work with the programme that works best for you to produce a .dxf file.
The ShopBot has no idea what programme the .dxf file was made in, and certainly doesn't care.
In certain circumstances you might even write scripts and create .dxf files from them.
........Mike

[jemelby]

Gerald;

Actually, the heat/light comment was a reference to a previous post of yours. But please! don't take it in a negative or contentious manner. I thought the way you closed that response was quite witty and good natured. That post was shining beakon of light with little or no heat. Consider it flattery by emulation.

I also appreciate your response reguarding .DXF files. That gives me a common denomonator, and a starting point.

As is perhaps the case with many SBers, I have always loved working with wood, and I also have a affection for computers and computer aided design (Not neccessarly confined to CAD programs). The SB would appear to be a near perfect melding between two of my great loves. I'm just trying to feel my way into it, and you've all been a great help.

p.s. I am assuming the production of light is preferable to heat. If not, flip everything I've said around.

[gerald_d]

That's okay James - politicians are known to generate heat (hot air) rather than light (bright ideas). Maybe you are blessed with different politicians?

[andrewm]

As a user who has used both Corel and Illustrator, they are very similiar. I have worked with Photoshop, After Effects, and Illustrator in my past jobs. In the end my own choice though came down to value and you can't beat Corel for value. The Corel Draw package gives you a lot more bang for the buck than Illustrator. The Adobe products are nice but they are expensive. If you go to eBay, you can find Corel Draw for usually less than $150. It not only includes the vector drawing program but also a nice paint (raster) program as well as CDs with lots of clipart, fonts and graphic utilities.

In the end it all comes down to nice clean vector art that you can export as a DXF file. 95% of the bells and whistles that both Illustrator and Corel have for creating art isn't used. What you do need to learn is how to create clean lines and both do this will.

[jf_allie]

Hey Everyone,

I don't agree with the dualistic view of CAD guys vs Draw guys. I think it is more a question of your past experience and the right software interface. Too often people think CAD equals AutoCAD or any of its clone , copy , or derivatives, and therefore that learning a CAD software is hard. NOT true. There are other more user friendly software. Ashlar Graphite, SmartSketch and Concepts 2D are good examples of this.

http://www.ashlar-vellum.com/products/graphite.html
http://ppo.intergraph.com/smartsketch/
http://ppo.intergraph.com/smartsketch/invent/
http://www.csi-concepts.com/c2dproduct.htm

(for the curious out their, have a look at this one http://www.techsoftuk.co.uk/2D.htm )

About Illustrator or CorelDraw. Consider your accumulated experience with Photoshop. I have a graphic designer friend who often complains when she has to use software with a different "logic", she finds it cuts the flow.

Also check out these two links. One is a plugin that let's you do CAD in Illustrator. The other is another vector drawing software that seems to offer a lot for a very reasonable price.
http://www.3d-tiger.de/en/gallery.htm
http://www.xara.com/

Jean-François

[mikejohn]

To create worthwhile work with a shopbot you need to be able to produce.spb files, which really means producing .dxf files.
Those of us who have experience with any software that can do this, come to CNC routing with an advantage.
Those who have to become proficient with software with which they can produce the desired .dxf files might well pay advice to the above messages, look around for trial software with which they are comfortable.
.........Mike

[gerald_d]

As I have suggested in other threads before, ask around your circle of friends and colleagues what they are using, and if they are willing to tutor you. The right CAD system for you will be the one where you can get your questions answered - even on a Sunday night.

[paco]

Microsoft Paint is a CAD program; CAD stand for Computer Assit Designing... as far as I know!? E-V-E-R-Y programs used to DESIGN on a computer is a CAD program...
What I believe to be the main concern to get to a SBP files is to use a VECTOR EDITOR CAD program (Still depends since one can go from a "raster" file type to SBP file type with a converter/tracer!)... then a CAM program (or part of a CAD/CAM package...) to get a toolpath FROM the CAD program file to machine it with is tool. There are MANY CAD, CAM and CAD/CAM packages available... it's just to loose you mind when one start looking for one and begin to try/test 'em all! The most refer to from SB and this forum are probably the best and the least expensive available... and the mostly reliable!
But many users have used/use only a CAD to do both the CAD and CAM part then use a converter to get to a SBP file type. Though I believe this should be time consuming!?...

[paco]

By the way, DXF file type are only one among the MANY vector file type available to work with...

[mikejohn]

Paco
I agree there are many file formats, but most CAD programs will handle .dxf in some way or other (R12,R13 or R14 normally)
......Mike

[paco]

I agree that DXF are among the most avialable that one can import/export... but I have found 'em to be often problematic (and heavily nodes) compared to AI and EPS... but that's MY opinion; MANY look to really like DXF.

[mikejohn]

Paco
I believe with all computing the thing to do is, go with what works for you.
.....Mike

[paco]

Right Mike!!

[Mayo]

I don't really agree that CorelDraw would be "the tool of choice for artistic design amongst engineering types".

Don't people with engineering backgrounds (generally speaking) design using a mathematical or geometrical approach? I know there are several engineers here - am I making a correct assumption?

The user interface of CorelDraw is more geared towards those who prefer to design with an artistic, less structured and more visual method.

[gerald_d]

Interesting to see that a lot of posters in this thread have pictures in their profiles. Paco, which one is you?

[robtown]

Corel has issues with DXF export.

Corel, Illustrator and Freehand (Macromedia) are considered drawing or illustration packages, thus not really too accurate on the measurements and scaling. You will be able to do 98% of what you need to do in any one of these three packages, the other 2% can be done in Parts Wizard.

Keep in mind that these are all tools, not one-button solutions that will bring your concepts to fruition with the push of a button. They all have strengths and minuses, and they all require some investment of time to learn.

I use all three programs plus AutoCad.

[paco]

I'm waving my hand!

[joe]

Botters,

I've seen the polls as to which software signs artists are using, and the overwhelming results are in favor of Corel.

The reason is primairly due to costs. I left Corel several years ago because of it's shortcomings and couldn't find my way back.

I think it's like putting your old horse out to pasture,in exchange the auto.

The more sophisticated programs like Sign Lab, Flexi, etc. offer sophiscated scanning, and clean up, click of a mouse features for Bipmap editing, drivers for plotters, and a host of features inside their programs. There is no need to open other software to scan, or birdge to plotters.

One of my real problems with Corel has to do with the irritating and unexpected incresa of nodes. Especially scanned and traced art. You can edit with node reduction, however the image probably won't retain it's original shape. Hidden nodes, that is one directly on top of another is also a favorite trick.

If you hadn't trained on Corel, and money was no object, Corel wouldn't be in the running.


For old Corel users, you have about as much chance of changing their minds as you would converting a Christian into a Muslim.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[Dan Hammerstron (Unregistered Guest)]

Hello Joe,
Your last line is probably the only one I could agree
with. I personbally don't think there is another product available that is faster from creation to cutting..for 2d- 21/2d signage..cheers you do make some " georgeous " signs now...Dan

[mikejohn]

I still feel it's horses for courses.
What works right for you is the right product.
Paco
I showed your photograph to my wife, and she said 'Isn't he young'.
I pointed out that the ShopBot operator was, of course, the clean shaven one!
.....Mike

[simon]

Illustrator = more spontaneous. Designed in tandem with a mac, PC versions are only a few years old, and never really worked properly.

Designed with His Gateness's blessing from the start, Corel is ... "differently able." It has some wicked distort buttons though.

I am learning Rhino, and I find its like Illustrator on acid.

[robtown]

Partisan rancor is never becoming... I never thought I'd see this whole MAC vs. PC thing invade the Shopbot forum.

I use all three of the "biggies" on PC, I utilize MAC fonts and everything when necessary. There are no MAJOR differences in the programs on either platform. Illustrator does not have the precision to make a viable CAD program, Corel is marginally better in this regard, but still will tend to round up or down (decimal places) for final output to .ai or .dxf...

There's very few differences between the platforms these days. About the only program I can think that truly does perform differently on a PC, than on a MAC, is Quark and that has no relevance to this crowd.

[mikejohn]

We're getting way out of line here.
All you are looking for is an accurate CAD file, most commonly .dxf.
I guess AutoCad will give you the most accurate, but providng your end product achieves the reult you want, that is all that matters.
Using the software you are comfortable with is the only sane way to go.
.....Mike

[paco]

Corel VS Illustrator

Round 9

'...Corel is looking in a better shape even after some "punch" from that Illustrator guy who definitly need some rest... still the round is'nt ending until some few minutes and the scores are about equal... who's gona win this fight about the top rank software??... we'll see soon. Keep watching WFFBSP (world fight for best software performer)...'
...sorry; I'm on medication for a cold...

[robtown]

Free your mind, don't think of it as work....

[dowty]

Just a few things I forgot to mention . . . the new Illustrator CS can export as an autoCAD drawing .dwg, or an autoCAD interchange file .dxf both of which I have a 99% success rate with. All the sign shops that I have delt with have never had any sort of problem with conversion to the applications that thay utilize in their shops. . . and price, like everything you need to be an informed shoper. Myself I refuse to pay retail for anything, so in my revolt I happen to keep an open log on ebay for items I am looking for. To this date I happen to own various applications including the Adobe CS suite, MillWizard, ArtCam Pro, Strata 3d, Rhino, Lightwave, Maya, Poser, VectorWorks ect . . . Over 15,000 of software for less than 5,000. Like anything of value it depends on what the market will bear, so I would suggest looking around this time of year being christmas and all.

If 7-11 is open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, why are there locks on the doors?

DOwty deSIGN
down under

[dowty]

In addition to the comment above

Mac vs PC
I happen to use both, primarily the Mac for all design work native and via virtual PC. I just use the PC for data transfer to the ShopBot (that's about all it is good for, for me, but this is just my opinion). I will have to say that I have never had a crash, data loss or even a virus on my Mac (OS 10.3), as for the PC (save, save ,save) well lets just say I don't trust it as much as the Mac but it does a good job for my shopbot data transfer.
Corel vs Illustrator
Just a small comment to help Rob not to criticize or cause a problem. First let me say that I do signage and display work. I happen to be a new ShopBot user born and raised a Graphic Designer hence my platform of a Mac. I definitely prefer Illustrator (CS) because of my workflow. I can produce a pdf for proofing right from illustrator or transfer my data directly to photoshop import a model made in lightwave, maya, strata or rhino via digital element's plugin called modelshop apply the graphics from illustrator to my 3d model. Then take a digital photo of the store or store front or wherever merge the 2, then present it to a client for a final approval as a wysiwyg for sign off. Now for the meat of the fight there is a outstanding plugin for Illustrator called CAD tools thet lets you do Isometric drawing, projection and dimensioning. With this side arm Illustrator blows Corel out of the water! You should look it up at
http://www.hotdoor.com/cadtools/index.html
Not to mention Illustrators tighter integration with Microsoft office for emailing client approvals.

But as usual its only what you prefer not why you prefer it! I am not trying to convert anyone, but can any one tell me How can someone draw a blank?

DOwty deSIGN
down under

[Lika (Unregistered Guest)]

Hello hope someone here can help me out!
I have some problems with adobe illustrator CS, the thing is that when I start my pc and double click the program it takes quiet long to open, well it's reading fonts and plugins, etc... but when it finally open suddenly I got a message that say "Cannot open the request information" and I click ok and the programm close.. and I double click again and hapen the same and in the third or fourth attempt to open it it finally open... so I don't know which could be the trouble there, I uninstall the program and install again like 3 times already but it doesn't correct this problem, so my friend borrow me his programm, and I install it in my pc thinking that maybe mine wasn't ok but hapens the same so I think it may be the system but how could I figure it out, where should I check to see if everything is in order...I use Windows XP my system is: Intel (R) Pentium (R)4 CPU 2.66 Ghz -2.67 Ghz, 1.00 GB RAM
well thanx and hope someone can help me!

[dowty]

Hey Lika,

I am not too sure about troublesgooting on the PC end since I'm more of a Mac tech, but before I would become too fustrated I would try this link.
http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/324053.html
If nothing works here I would contact ADOBE's tech support directly.

[dave@helphelpdesk (Unregistered Guest)]

Lika,
PC based machines require that you've done your homework before installing a program like Illustrator CS. Assuming that you have "good memory modules" the most common cause of laboring PC's is a virus. As you machine boots, all the designated programs load into memory [TSR's] including the virus(es). My recommendation is that you have a computer shop scan your hard drive for virsuses. This passive scanning will allow deletion. If you find no viruses then the next best thing is to wipe the hard drive, install the OS [and all the updates], then install illustrator CS. 90% of the time this works on PC's. The reason for the rebuild and updating is that manufacturers of components within the PC are notorious for not designing for universally compatible software. The most common source of difficulty is the video drivers. Hope this isn't to much info for you. Work on the virus issue first. Dave

[franniboy]

Hello,

Didn't read all the posts (got the varying gist) but I've had some discussions with Brady and Doc P. and it seems that Corel generates a lot of "chatter" with bot files. The final verdict is not in on this. I, a (dangerous)Corel user, didn't have chatter problems until I went to the Bot. No offense, but the question is still up in the aire in several net forums as to the (combined...I gather) source of the chatter. I don't see why anyone learned in Corel should have to learn an entirely new program to design in (vectorially, speaking) just to lose the chatter blamed on Corel. I design full color concept in Corel and from there make the production files. There's never been a problem there until my Corel/AI files were introduced (imported) into ArtCam about a year or two ago. I'll be sure to let all know the outcome of this debate as answers are forthcoming.

[srwtlc]

Fran,

I use Corel for drawing any freeform parts, pockets, signs or designs. I then save as an .eps, open that in TurboCad and save as a .dxf and then open in Vector for toolpathing (Corel is notorious for bad .dxf's). In Vector I arc spline the drawing so that the output code is cut with smoother running arcs rather than jerky short segments. I don't have ArtCam Pro or Insignia, but I've noticed that there is a post processor called "ShopBot Inch Arc" that may smooth things out (something to ask the ArtCam users).

If your Corel drawing has a lot of nodes and many that aren't made "smooth" or "symetrical", it can affect the resulting toolpath also. Straight lines work fine from Corel, but any arcs, circles or elipeses export out and open as segmented entities (at least into Vector).

Just some of my obversations.

Scott

[franniboy]

Thanks Scott. I was aware of some of what you mention. I've done almost everything to Corel files including node reduction, curve conversion, etc. Perhaps the problem is export to AI rather than eps. Don't have TurboCad, but I wonder how the conversion filter to DXF is in AutoCad. I'm gonna forward your comments to SB CNC guru, Brady, with whom I work along with on CNC projects and, subsequently, Bill "Doc" Palumbo who's rather busy with Camp bots these next few weeks. Again Thanks. Also, hope I was helpful about woodgraining techniques.

[franniboy]

Also, note that I believe one can set their drawing parameters (preferences) in Corel ahead of time such that arcs can be rendered more like arcs (arc accuracy) vs. a series of straight lines (but then there's the export interoplation issue). Someone should create a vector program called "True Arc" to stem these problems with good import/export faculties.

[brian_farrell]

In Illustrator 10 importing and exporting .dxf files is a breeze, however, when I try importing or opening a .dxf file in Illustrator CS I just get text. If I copy a paste the file from 10 to CS then do my work the file doesn't export right either. I tried dragging the plug-ins for file format into CS from 10 but that doesn't work. What do I do to be able to use CS and yet still import and export the way 10 did?