Windows version disconnects from controller where DOS version does not

[stevenseim]

On loading the windows version after configuring the controller prom, I notice that the software will disconnect itself from the controller at various locations and times during the cut, presenting a message that says 'communication was with the controller was lost.'

If I reconfigure the prom and use the DOS version and the same part file, all will be well.

Any ideas? I am running a prt 96, that is about 3 or so years old; pre serial number type.

The shop PC is dedicated to the task of running the bot. No ancillary processes or software is on the machine, and it has no network connectivity as well.

(Please dont blame windows or the PC)

Steven Seim
sseim@comcast.net (mailto:sseim@comcast.net)

[Brady Watson]

Steven..It's the PC.


Try re-running the control box loader and then restarting the PC (also cycle the power on the control box). I had this happen to me when switching back and forth. A restart of the PC and control box seemed to fix it.

Hope that helps,
-Brady

[gerald_d]

These issues make me extremely nervous to convert our PRT (same vintage as Steve's) from DOS to Windows. I did make one attempt before, and within minutes we had a blown driver chip. But I might (again) forget the "if it is not broken, don't fix it" rule in the future......

[daveiannone]

I am with you Gerald. I tried once (not too long aftyer it was out) and in the middle of a keyboard move it started running away......That was it , back to DOS and haven't had the nerve to try again. I would like to though, but have NO problems with DOS. We'll see.

[Brady Watson]

I didn't even bother trying the SB3 until version 3.3.5 or so. It definately makes the machine move faster and smoother to boot. While I cannot say it is 100% as reliable as DOS, each version gets better and better.

If it's been a while since you've tried it, I think that you will be pleasantly suprised. If you don't like it, just switch back.

-Brady

[gerald_d]

Brady, I saw this post (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=312&post=21134#POST21134) of yours, are you still using the Windows version?

[Brady Watson]

Yes...The Windows version (3.3.18) is much more robust than previous versions. One thing that none of the SB3 versions are very tolerant of is quick keystrokes...my previous career made me work a keyboard like a concert pianist. Other than that, all of the problems that I have encountered with the SB3 software have been addressed. Ramping is the only gremlin out there for me right now, and that is just my lack of complete understanding of it in regrads to tuning. That will be addressed by Ted at the Jamboree.

Aside from my jogging speed going up to 5 IPS (5 real IPS even if it is set at 6...it will only do 5) I haven't identified any real advantage to me using it for the router on my PRT. The steppers definately run a LOT smoother than in 2.39. I haven't had the need to go back to DOS for any of my jobs for a while now...Since I cut a lot of carbon fiber, thick sign foam and other expensive materials, reliability is of the utmost importance to me. SB3 has been working without indicent for some time now.

On the plasma cutting side of things...the SB3 offers a night and day difference in cut quality...I mean it is unreal how much better it is than the DOS counterpart.

Does that answer your question? If you haven't tried it since 3.3.11....then do so. I think that you will be pleasantly suprised. You can always do a load46 to use the DOS version again.

-Brady

[gerald_d]

Thanks Brady, that was very helpful.

I can't resist asking this: Would we need a spindle when we upgrade to the Windows version?


(I actually called the local Colombo agent today - 9 HP spindles are used around here and the last price was $14 000!)

[Brady Watson]

No...since your cutting speed/force will not increase your spindle requirements would remain the same. The reason that the PRTs can jog @ 5 IPS in the SB3 is because of much improved ramping when jogging. 2.39 tends too apply too much power too quickly when jogging over 3 IPS and in turn stalls the stepper.

That's a VERY high price for a spindle. That price may reflect the fact that it is a toolchanger spindle...with lots more bells and whistles on it for the pneumatic chuck. Typically the price of a new 3HP spindle is about 1/10th the price that you listed, plus the price of the VFD and wiring. If you sniff around long enough, you can find a spindle at a somewhat reasonable cost.

For many of the tools/options on my bot I spent way more than I could have, but the convenience of just bolting on accessories and tools was worth it to me at the time...and I am glad that SB made everything so easy to hook up. I've arrived at the part of life where I have nothing to prove...and where it makes the most sense, I buy things already setup ~ like my spindle for instance.

-Brady

[kaaboom_99]

So can anyone tell me what the specs are when running Windows software. If I recall, the Dos ver. was something like 3.5 ips for 'X & Y' (cutting) before losing steps. Does running he Windows software alter this spec?
Thanks guys

[Brady Watson]

Maybe...but probably not. In my experience I have not been able to reliably cut faster than 3 IPS in either SB3 or 2.39...but your results may vary. I jog at 5 real IPS (set at 6 IPS), but jogging is different than cutting, as there is no cutting force on the tool. I have a 5' wide Y AND 2 tools on my gantry, so it's rolling a bit heavier than a PRT96. I attempted to move and jog at 3.5 IPS in 2.39, but the steppers stalled and lost steps because the ramping for jogging was too steep.

One thing to keep in mind is that the torque curve of the steppers fall off rapidly after 3 IPS. With the proper ramping values, it may be possible to move faster than that depending on the chipload/cutting force required by your bit and material...although I don't recommend moving at accelerated speeds if you are cutting small or intricate shapes. You *could* theoreticaly cut at a higher rate if you turned the ramping WAY down. This essentially would allow you to go fast on the 'back straight' but slow in the corners. For instance if you set XY move ramping to .1 (10% of set move speed), you would move at let's say 3 IPS on the straights and .3 IPS where there is a tight curve, corner or change of direction. Doing this sounds like it will work in theory, but when you consider the material that you are cutting, it may not be such a good choice. For instance, if you are cutting plastic at 20,000 RPM @ 3 IPS and getting a good edge and chip in the straight areas, you will most likely get chip welding and melting when the tool needs to slow down to change direction, such as a corner. So running the tool at 1.5 IPS and 10,000 RPM would result in the same chipload with a much higher ramping multiplier (let's say .75 or .85 ~ 75%/85% of MS) because you are still in the center of the torque band of the stepper.

Again...this is for MY tool, you may very well be able to move faster by adjusting ramping values and stepping the bit down at a smaller rate per pass to reduce the cutting force required. If your edge/cut quality goes down as a result of increased speeds...just move slower...or upgrade to an Alpha


Hope that helps!
-Brady

[mikejohn]

Brady
I am uncertain about the use of the term 'ramping'.
It is used when plunging the bit (z) whilst also moving in x/y, to reduce the bit load (I think!).
It is also used, like above, when the machine changes direction.
The first 'ramping' appears to be something the operator introduces during the design stage.
Is the second a built in routine within the ShopBot software?
Is there terminology that would diffrientiate between the two?
......................Mike

[gerald_d]

On ramps (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/6738.html?1110435494)

[bleeth]

I've run my PRT on Dos since day one although when Windows came out I loaded it on a computer I use only for design work for the improved visuals. I've stayed away from moving over due to all the usual problems associated with new windows programs. Brady, due to the respect I have for your opinions I may be ready to make the change. With a great deal of my cutting work being done in 3/4 cabinet plys smoothness and accuracy at top speed is important. (I run a spindle). That being said, what kind of speeds are you getting safely for full depth cuts with a 1/4" end mill? Is anyone running 5mm and at what speed and configuration. (I dislike 1/4" shelf bores.)

Dave

[Brady Watson]

Dave,
I haven't really pushed the Bot any faster in regards to move speed with the router. It's rare that I am cutting something that I can afford to lose steps on because the materials I work in are expensive...This is not to down play the usefulness of the PRT, it was just engineered to operate up to 3 IPS.

I have cut 3/4" MDO with a 1/4" bit a full depth a few times at 3 IPS. I would not be able to do this in DOS. On a PRT, over 3 IPS it just doesn't pay to run the bot any faster. I'd rather run it at 2 IPS and know for certain that my cuts will be dead on. The other thing that is nice on my machine, being 5X16', is that jogging is almost 2X as fast...that alone is worth it to me.

Now on the plasma cutter, I am able to move up around 4 IPS in SB3. This is because the plasma torch never encounters side force/cutting force because it always hovers above the work and ramping around curves and such are better.

If you have a PRT and really need to move faster, you have a few options. You could obviously upgrade to an Alpha and continue to operate the tool thru the SB control software and SBP language or you could retain your PRT steppers, run a 75v power supply and gecko drives plus Mach2 software controller running Gcode. This would effectively double your cutting speed since the PRT uses a 40v PS, and raising the voltage to the steppers pushes the torque band up higher in the RPM range. The PRT steppers simply won't move any faster with cutting force as they are with the 40v PS. The 'Mach2' conversion is not for the faint of heart or technically challenged user.

Just to recap, the PRT simply will not move any faster than 5 IPS max, and this is with a long acceleration ramp.

-Brady

[bleeth]

Brady: Since I've been cutting at 1.5 to 2 and jogging at three cutting at three and jogging at five sounds like nirvana to me!!
Dave

PS-Faint of hear I'm not but I probably qualify under technically challenged! (I thought an enjineer ran a train until they told me I are one)

[ron brown]

Dave,

The hardest thing for me was to learn the few new commands to move about without the "mouse". I do believe the WinDoze version is superior to the old DOS version.

Ron

[Brady Watson]

Here's a little known fact regarding moving with the K command in SB3. In DOS if you wanted to move in a diagonal direction, you would simply press both arrow keys together. Since the Windows software cannot bind the 2 arrow keys together you can do 1 of 2 things to move/jog in a diagonal:

1. Hover your mouse (for example) between the Up and Right arrow 'keys' on the yellow screen. Press the mouse and it will move diagonally. Hold CTRL + click in one of those places and it jogs diagonally.

2. The '\' key will move the tool to the upper left, and the '/' key will move it to the upper right. Pressing the ALT key in conjuntion with the \ or / keys will result in moving the tool in the opposite direction. Of course CTRL in conjuntion with these keys will also jog in that direction.

-Brady