Shift-Selecting a spline simplified by Vector

[mechtron@iafrica.com]

Another new conversation with Shift-Select in the title. . . . It is believed that many ShopBotters (like me) took a couple of looks at the "free" Vector software and then returned to their more familiar CAD programs. All I can say to these guys is that they should start with an understanding for Vector's Shift-Select feature (one feature only) and then the value of Vector will start to reveal itself!

End of the commercial . . . . now to the problem:

I can get Vector to shift-select right around a complex profile of say 2000 segments. Then I use Draw, Splines, Arc Splines to simplify this profile down to about 200 segments. However, after having done this, shift-select does not want to work a second time on the simplified profile. There may be about 4 hiccups to be repaired manually.

Can anyone (Fred, John?) give some pointers on which settings to fiddle with?

[imserv@imsrv.com]

Immediately after you do the arc spline, make an object. It will stay selected after that.

At a minimum blank the arc-splined geometry & then select and delete any unselected bits left out of the original selection. These little "dots" of lines are often the cause of selection and reselection problems. Because they are so tiny, they may be selected the next time you shift select, rather than the path that you want.

[Gerald D]

Thanks so far Fred, but could you please elaborate on "blank the arc-splined geometry"? (Maybe just the commands in sequence?) I understand the rest of your logic and I agree that the little dots are the problem.

[Gerald D]

Found the Blank fuction, but the little dots get blanked too!

[sheldon dingwall]

I seem to have on occasion the same trouble. It seems as though the problem is small breaks in the arcs after they are interpolated.

[srwtlc]

I've recently had a problem that might be related, I don't know. But when I make my offset, parts of the offset path are missing and sometimes when I unselect it they reappear but sometimes not. Repainting the screen doesn't work.
Somtimes I can select these blank areas and other times not. Sounds like a graphics problem but it does this on two different machines. A particular .dxf file that I was just trying to make an offset for will only create part of the offset.

[swims@mindspring.com]

A couple of tips:

Scott: Save your .dxf as a .ccd and try working from that file. You may get better results. If not, I am clueless. I often get the situation where sections of a path may not be visible, but redrawing always makes it right.

Gerald: make sure everything is deselected and then use shift select to chose just the paths that will be blanked (ie need some work); try reorganizing just prior to blanking. After you blank that path, redraw the window (ctrl r) and then box select the now 'empty' area you just created. If that highlights any of those little boogers, delete them and then unblank your path. In usual situations that works.

Sheldon: Make sure you wait until after you've made all of your connect at z moves (you're basically done) before you interpolate. Usually what would appear to be a small break in an interpolated path is actually that the adjoining segments are pointing in opposite directions. This can occur when you box select and sometimes when you (shift a) select all. They should appear to connect if you shift select. Actually, if you shift select and they aren't connected, the entire path won't highlight. I haven't seen this in interpolated arcs, but I have had to go through and do the entire select and draw line connect rigamarole more than my fair share.

Good Luck

[Gerald D]

Fred, is there any difference in the Shift-Select versus the Cntrl-W logic? Let me explain:

In a profile of many tiny segments, we never know in which direction Shift-select will go. So we have been selecting one element, deciding on the direction with F5, and then Cntrl-W.

However, we have found that Cntrl-W is much more sensitive to small boogers and breaks than Shift-select.

Alternatively, is there a way of reversing the direction of the whole profile that was most recently selected?

[swims@mindspring.com]

Hey Gerald,

I can answer the last one. If you look under the Special drop down menu, you'll see 'reverse last contour F6'. Use F9 to reverse 'em all.

Are you using Vector 8 or 9?

[Gerald D]

Steve, At last I also managed to get through to Fred's forum and he confirmed that Cntrl-W is more sensitive and slower.

After having selected 2000 segments in sequence, I was too scared to go looking for drop-down menus! Yes, F9 is the key, thanks.

Vector 9 is only a rumour as far as we are concerned.

[Mayo]

Evidently I have had a rumor sitting on my desk for... I don't know - a couple months?

Why is shift-select such a touted benefit?
It seems like unnecessary steps to me. There's software which allows you to create your job, create the tool path, and output to a file or to the cutter without having to manually tell the software which direction you want every line cut.

Since I have hardly used Vector at all, I'm unaware of any other uses for shift-select and my spouting off might be groundless. If so, I apologize.

Isn't it always the same directions you want the cutting done? Entities inside or within other entities (holes like the centers of letters A,O,P,D, etc.) should always be cut one direction and before cutting the outer entity, which would be cut in the other direction. Other software does this automatically.

I'm a member of the unformed group of people who briefly tried Vector and went to something else which doesn't require thinking like an engineer who already understands that method of accomplishing computerized manufacturing.

I'm not doubting that it's highly capable software... just saying that I can't understand the method or sequence of getting things done in it.

If anyone could offer an example of importing a dxf file and making it ready to cut, I would be happy to give it a shot. There must be *some* reason(s) why the people who love vector continue to use it. I'd like to learn those reasons.

[jkforney@yahoo.com]

Mayo
No it isn't always the same direction you want the cut done. As you are finding out with your pine, grain direction and cutting direction can play a large part in your final finish. Just from experience with wood I would try to cut in one direction and then try the other. Sealing it will affect the staining if any and need to be sanded, which would also remove the fuzzing. That is one of the benefits of Shift select. It selects the line in the direction you want your cut, even if you drew it in the opposite direction. On very hard and fibrous wood (hickory comes immediately to mind) I will program the cuts with a slight offset (1/16 to 1/32)with 3 or 4 passes (simply edit cut edit paste to depth with number of copies = to the number of passes you want to cut) to run clockwise and then I program a conventional cut the full depth using the final toolpath.

Also text that is done inside vector always has the insides and outsides running in opposite directions.

Actually having been a cabinet maker for the last 30 years I find that Vector thinks exactly the way I do. Exact measurements get the exact result. I like being able to program different depth passes. I also like the machine to automatically program approaches and departs. That is exactly the way I have been using a hand router. Easing into the cut and easing out.

As far as importing a dxf file and making it ready to cut, I have found that most of the problems occur with the file coming in. In my opinion the only program that handles dxf exports well is Sign Wizard. When I bring in clip art and eps files or design my text directly, sign wizard gives me a clean dxf file that is ready for Vector with no, I repeat, no clean up. Aries graphics has done a great job on their handling of dxf exports.

Vector 9 exists and is available from shopbot or imservice.

Vector isn't the only software out there, but it is the only one furnished for free with the shopbot. If you have any specific questions post them since others can certainly benefit from the solutions (if there are some) to problems.

John Forney

[mechtron@iafrica.com]

Mayo,

I think I know exactly how you feel! Been there!

Referring to your last para, I certainly don't love Vector - it is about as bad as loving the spare tyre in your car! But on the day that you need it, feelings can change. I run the risk of having my message censored if I gave you my real feelings on it. I have already tramped on a few toes in this regard.

How did you get your SB to cut the outlines of your wolf? You must have had quite a few line segments and you wanted them to cut smoothly in sequence, one after another? all anti-clockwise? Normally SB will cut the lines in the same sequence/direction that you draw/save them. During the drawing stage we normally make small mods at random all over our drawing - making the ShopBot go all over the table and making the cuts in the same "random" sequence. If I can understand how you handled your wolf, then you could maybe point me to a better program than Vector! I have an open (and welcoming) mind on this.

If you want to go offline, please feel free to use mechtron@iafrica.com (mailto:mechtron@iafrica.com) - a sample .dxf will help me to understand your work.

[rgengrave@aol.com]

Gerald here are some tips for you, it took me 10 minutes to make your Crest file, did you like the way it cut? and in order?

I did it in Turbocad in 10 minutes, then in Vector but after 1 hour I gave up so I sent it to 14 other shopbotter that use Vector and have not got the file back on how to do it, last I heard is they could not figure out how to do it so I don't feel so bad about not being able to do it .

The trick is don't use a CAD/CAM program to make your files, use a Cad program to make the files and then use a Cam Program to do the path and offsets you want, you just saved hrs on the file.

Vector might be a good program to have and learn but it is going to take time, me I gave up on it because I know how to do what it can do in any cad program, 2d and 2 1/2, any 3d work I use another program.

Look on the server and you will see everything about getting a file and picture ready.

If you are just doing lines and arcs? draw them in the order you want them to cut,so you want offsets? if you draw a Rectangle say 20"x20" and want it to cut that size? you just think of what bit you will be using to cut it and add half of it and you are done, so it will now be a rectangle 20 1/8 x 20 1/8, it will now cut a 20x20 using a 1/4 inch bit.

Now take you crest file, it had everything,it had all kind of detail, but it was in the order I felt will take less time to cut and give the best picture and a time of 10 minutes to make it.

Best moto is learn a cad program then play with Cad/Cam programs, you will get a better understanding on how it all fits together

You might know all of this? but I posted it for the one's that might not.

Just my 2 cents worth

Ron V

[Gerald D]

Ron, I did not cut directly from your 21MB dxf file with 36 704 line segments. I think that you prepared it for a networked vinyl-cutter where it is okay for the tool to cut directly on the lines. (In any case, our SB is fed on stiffies only, so the file size limit is 1.4MB)

We have used Vector to reduce the file size to 500 kB and 3600 line segments. Certainly not an automatic 10 minute exercise, because we had to restore sharp corners where the vinyl cutter would have a series of radiused steps. The squaring off was done in AutoCad.

We also made some corrections (with the designer's approval) such as crossing the weapons on the centre line - all with AutoCad

Further, we are using a V-cutter to get into some of the fine details, this means that we need a 3D approach to vary the depth of cut relative to the groove width. So far we have used VCarvZ, and this is another reason that we had to reduce the file size.

However, I am very grateful for the huge file and lots of detail that you supplied - a good input gives a good output

Thanks again

[rgengrave@aol.com]

Greald the dxf file is only 5.3mb when you remove the bmp in it, I left it there to show you how it was done.

I should have removed it before I sent it?

Ron

[Gerald D]

Ron, sorry for the wrong impression;

Of course I removed the .bmp, but even 5.3MB is still too big for a stiffy based system.

Size was not the only issue. For example your scan showed showed us for the first time that their are bumps on the heads of the two persons. Apparently 4 of similar size. A close check of the bmp showed 6 bumps of decreasing size. The designer confirmed that this was very significant and now we have modified all the bumps manually. No computer software can ever give the human interpretation.

[garbob]

MAYO - in reference to your comment of Thurs. June 14/01 - "There must be *some* reason(s) why the people who love vector continue to use it."

IT'S FREEEEE!!!

Other reasons that come to mind are that some people like to be tinkerers like the ones that used to write huge DOS batch jobs and be ever so proud. Some people like to figure out puzzles, too. But I'm sure it's the free thing - it has to be. Especially when you try to go through the "Learning Vector in two decades" and the OTHER documentation, you really do have to wonder!

I hear that they actually wrote a manual. Too bad that they wouldn't give it to all the people that have wasted WAY TOO MUCH TIME trying to figure out their other gibberish.

Do I sound bitter? You betcha! I bought my Shopbot over a year ago and thought that I'd be up and running after about 6 weeks. I foolishly paid for version 8 of vector and tried to learn it. Well I've just now started to make money using the machine. I also spent about 8 weeks working with the original profilelab beta - that's another story!

If you want to use your machine right out of the box I strongly recommend whatever drawing program you use - Corel Draw is wonderful if you hate the anality of CAD - AND rams 2D OR 3D for generating cut files from eps or dxf files - EASY TO USE, EASY TO UNDERSTAND, PHONE SUPPORT, ON-LINE TROUBLESHOOTING BY ACTUALLY RUNNING YOUR FILE OVER THE NET WITH YOU WATCHING. Hard to beat. If time is money to you, give it a try, if not well.....

http://www.rams-software.com

[dmdraper]

Lots of passionate discussion here about software. I’ve made the observation there is an affiliation with software a lot like there is for cars, i.e., Ford guy, Chevy guy, etc. Lots of you have expressed thoughts which have provoke me to express mine!

There is a steep learning curve for Vector there is no dispute about that. Is that learning curve any steeper than for AutoCad or Corel - no. Vector is not what I’d call intuitive (an example of what I’d call intuitive is MS Word, but that’s probably because it’s a Windows "format" GUI). However, don’t take that to mean that Vector is not very powerful - it is and I personally can’t imagine not using it.

Having said that, let me provide some data points on which my opinion is based. I was frustrated trying to "figure out" Vector by just sitting down and trying to draw something and come up with a part file. I had the same level of frustration trying to learn Corel and AutoCad. I chose to shorten the learning curve for Vector the same way I did for Corel and AutoCad - by attended training. I all of these instances, the training was very beneficial.

I am now very comfortable with Vector (I attended the training in May and have had my ShopBot since mid April). The thing I like about Vector is it gives me control of every move the machine makes and there are times when that becomes very important.

I have tried one of the other CAM packages mentioned in the threads above and found it extremely easy to use but limited in its ability to edit the tool path or make changes. I did a test case where I used the same .dxf file (a simple sign), same feeds and speeds, and cut it using Vector and the other package (which cost over $900 US) - bottom line… no discernable difference (the Vector generated .sbp file actually cut a few second faster). I tried a more complicated .dxf file and couldn’t make the other program work.

So what’s my point? I think the Vector is getting some undeserved bad press here.

[cadcamtech@adelphianet]

David
I am always interested in the learning process for software. You said you attended a class to learn Vector, how long was it and how much did it cost?
The other software you tested, did you have to attend a class to learn it and if so how much was the class? How long did it take to learn?
You said on a complicated DXF file the other program would not work, what did their tech support say was wrong.
Thanks all the information I gather is welcomed.

D. Blair

[Wanting to know]

It seems the passionate discussion subsides when it becomes a factual discussion.