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View Full Version : Optimizing production files, ramping etc...



harryball
07-14-2007, 01:00 PM
Let me ask my questions first, is there a way to eliminate the small hesitation/pause when calling a file with FP? I'm calling a file 32 times with offset each time to produce grooves. Between each call is a minor pause causing ramping.

If not... is there away to call a block of code internally with offset? i.e. instead of FP with offset create a loop with offset based on the final bit position at the end of each loop.

Now to share...

I've cut 28 sheets in a little less than 2 weeks. That's big production for me, remember I'm the guy that cuts a small groove every 1/2" over practically entire sheets, some on both sides. Anyway, the experience has sent me experimenting today since I didn't really want to work. I've been further tuning and getting braver with messing with ramp values. I thought I'd share.

I was able to cut more than 7 minutes off of a production file just with the ramping adjustments. Mine were all defaulted to .4. I was playing with slow corner speed which was set to 35 and I did move a couple of items slightly but never much. I decided to get brave... or dumb one. Let me say, I only changed values on the VR fill in sheet for this adventure, all my other settings and jog speeds remained the same.

I chose a file component that represented mostly pre-drilling and ran it. It was taking 2m31s to run. I then started altering jog ramping since it accounted for most of the moving. After a few minutes tweaking and repeated runs I settled on settings that runs it in 1m38s. Thats huge when tossed into the mix.

I then started playing with the move ramps. Slow changes but continued tweaking. I ran a grooving file this time, one that runs a zigzag of grooves every 1/2". The first time I ran the file for baseline it took 2m7s to run. After my tweaks I'm at 1m45s. Not as impressive but considering I run this pattern 6 times in one production file it adds up.

My actual numbers are not important, it's the fact I was willing to tweak to see what would happen. What is important is my methodology which I'll share.

It's important to have a baseline from a representative file to begin tweaking. This is so you'll know if you are making real gains. I suggest tweaking jog ramping and move ramping separately. This calls for at least 2 different files, I used 3 myself. I used a predrilling file for jog tunning since it's mostly jogging hole to hole. The other file does continuous cutting so that was for move ramping.

I figured out my jog ramping can be tuned and it's probably safe to leave them as my default settings. I MUST be aware at my speeds I need to always eject the network card when running files. I don't want any polling going on while I'm jogging. I tuned past my current values but noticed diminished returns after changes and much harsher tool moves. I settled on numbers that for me are comfortable and the tool is not excessively banging around.

My move ramping is a different story. I found some optimal settings for doing roosting grooves (a .015" deep groove cut with a 5/32" bit every 1/2") but those same settings seemed too aggressive when I ran my cutting files. This makes sense, there is practically no resistance on the bit and coming up to speed quickly is easy. But when I've got a 1/4" compression bit cutting into 1/2" material in a single pass... I better take it a little easier.

In the end I determined good VR values for roosting grooves and added them to the file so I could change them, then change back for regular cutting. I also found some tweaks for my regular cutting as well (my 3rd test file). Though not as aggressive it saved about 10 seconds on my sample file. I made these my default settings. Even so, I may find they are more aggressive than I'd like when I cut my 1.25" cedar sides or cabinet jobs.

For the final test I ran my full production files in air cut and compared before and after tuning... WOW! Before total elapsed was 27m35s and I was proud to get those numbers. I've done all I can do with minimized jogging, grid cutting etc... all the toolpath tweaking that can be done was done. After really shocked me at 20m8s!!! I had just cut 10 sheets with this production file, that's a savings of more than an hour of run time. I was pleased to find at least modest savings on most and a few dramatic savings like this when I air cut my other production files.

Spending a little time tweaking values can pay off. Adding VR tuning to specific files that can handle it pays off as well in production type files.

Now I know someone is going to ask me for my numbers, but I've thought about it and I'm not going to tell you... my numbers are not your numbers because we are not cutting the same thing. I think it's important you not plug in someone elses numbers and run with it thinking it's safe. I can tell you my numbers for cutting roosting grooves is not safe for cutting anything else. While my bot, which may be different than yours, runs smooth and quietly with my numbers cutting my file yours may not.

I found that in no case changing a number slightly caused disaster. I could easily see the trend after just a couple of changes as well as see and hear the tools reaction. I also made my changes with a leading 0 i.e. default is .4 and I entered 0.4, this helped me identify if I had actually changed the number or if I'd forgot to change it.

So take some time and give it a try.

Robert

harryball
07-14-2007, 02:04 PM
I never could find a way to make FP call quicker, I think it has to do with the way the move blocks are loaded, it can't look ahead with successive file calls.

I am playing with ZT,Z2 and ST to control the current position and return to base coordinates now. I think I've got it, we'll see shortly.

Robert

paco
07-14-2007, 02:10 PM
SW command for the warning duration... sorry Robert I didn't read ALL you post above so I may have missed something... are you an author or an writer in your spare time?!

harryball
07-14-2007, 02:28 PM
I've done my fair share of writing, I had to write technical manuals. I figured for those looking to speed things up but are timid about making changes it'd make a good read but I didn't want to feed a set of numbers someone may plug in using blind faith.

For the question portion... I did get the proper function messing with the zeroing commands but the small pause is still present even with the loop inside the file. I suppose it makes sense but I was hoping to reduce or elminate it.

The SW command might eliminate a second or two but it's not cumulative like improved ramping. Although... I think I could have some fun with it. A cool sound file like "GET OUT THE WAY, CARBIDE COMING THROUGH"

Robert

Brady Watson
07-14-2007, 05:52 PM
Robert,
Glad to see you are becoming an advanced machinist...Tuning your ramps is essential for any repetitive type of work. I just knocked out 106 sheets of material in 2 days, and the 'default' programming was reduced by little tweaks by about 30%...and this includes a routine to vacuum off the table while I am going to grab the next sheet. It's a robot right? Make it vacuum off the table!

SW = Set Warning duration. Most never change this...I set mine to zero. If your spindle/router has to wait 2 seconds to get up to set RPM, that could be a bottle neck. I leave mine running and manually turn it on or off. I'm the boss...not the control box.

As far as your ramping adventures go...this is good. I think that your post will help affirm what I have been saying for a long time regarding tweaking things for production. Since you have discovered on your own that 'roost files' require a very different set of parameters than general cutting, you should save this configuration and name it something like 'Roost.sbc'. You can save your config via the US command and load any of your saved configurations using the UR command. You can do this anytime you like and have as many configurations as you deem necessary. I have not passed a parameter (the config file name) from within a part file, so you'll want to look into that if you don't want to manually do a UR in between files with different configs.

You are correct that jog ramp values should be set and left alone. They do little to save you any time. The Slow Corner Speed & Min distance to check really make the most difference. Aside from your aggressive 'roost' file, you probably want to find a happy medium setting with your move rate and move speed values and leave them. There isn't much they are going to do for you by changing them for 99% of the cutting that you will do. If you have your 1:1 Alpha, you'll want to be careful not to ask more of the motor than it can deliver. It will go into Alpha mode. If you have the 7.2:1 upgrade, change all of your .4s to .1s...It's very nice


-B

harryball
07-14-2007, 09:12 PM
I'm not sure how it behaves in "Alpha mode" but I did push it to the point it lost position a couple of times today. I can now hear it approaching this threshold and back away. I've probably got all I'll get out of a 1:1 alpha.

I really want the upgrade... cash is king and I'm a court jester right now. I've got cash tied up in materials for the upcoming show and put in reserve for fuel, room and board etc... to make the trip to Austin. I also have precious little time to take a few jobs that could belly up the cash until after I finish all this production. I'm not comfortable cutting into the cash I do have right now in case something failed that shut me down, you guys know the drill.

Unless I get a windfall, land a cash cow or SB ships one by accident... I'm going to have to wait until some of this product is converted to cash again. I no longer walk through my shop but rather wade. We'll be moving some of this stuff to storage in our new mobile bat cave (black trailer) soon.

Robert

bill.young
07-15-2007, 09:06 AM
Hey Robert,

"Although... I think I could have some fun with it. A cool sound file like "GET OUT THE WAY, CARBIDE COMING THROUGH" "

FYI, there's also a PLAY command that lets you insert a sound clip into a part file.

Bill

harryball
07-15-2007, 09:26 AM
I found that late yesterday and started laughing... I have a wav of George Jetson's boss Mr. Spacely yelling "YOU'RE FIRED!" and I was thinking how great that would be as an error sound. Or HAL "I'm sorry Dave, but I just can't do that" I did insert this from the W of Oz... "We're off to see the wizard" and then the file starts executing. :-)

Now... for some real fun it needs to tie sounds to the movements and sing! "Oh a little to the left, a little to the right now wiggle it baby and do it right" LOL

Now I need a sound system in the shop... will it ever end?

Robert

Gary Campbell
07-15-2007, 12:35 PM
Brady & Robert..
Is there any documentation on adjusting the tweaks spoken about above for a PRSa? Is there a "ramp" or look ahead value for MOVE commands? I am noticing hard stops cutting rectangles (OS profile cuts) on one end (+X) and then 4 second corner navigation (transition from -Y to +X) on the other? Also happening during a raster planing routine(X) at 2.5ips. Also what to try on the small circle settings?
Thanks Gary

bleeth
07-15-2007, 02:32 PM
Robert: For some ideas on shop speakers check out down the SB blog for the Shopbot speaker contest from the other year. I think I can start to imagine "batspeakers"

http://www.campshopbot.blogspot.com/

bruce_clark
07-15-2007, 03:49 PM
Robert,

What "show" are you doing in Austin? When is it and will you be selling your bat boxes there?

Bruce

harryball
07-15-2007, 04:11 PM
Bat Fest in Austin Texas on Sept. 1 and 2. (Saturday/Sunday) We are taking a trailer load of houses.

Robert

Brady Watson
07-15-2007, 04:22 PM
Gary,
Try changing your Slow Corner Speed to 40 & your minimum distance to check to .08. Set your ALL values from the top down to just before '3D thershold' to .1 See if you like it...if not, change it back.

Abrupt corners can be smoothed by turning down your slow corner speed. I have found that 'lop-sided' ramping that you described is sometimes caused by sloppy vectors...not always, but sometimes. Leave your small circle definition alone.

-B

harryball
07-15-2007, 04:31 PM
Dang Brady... you beat me to it... Try a slow corner speed of 39... yeah, 39 that's the ticket :-)

Dave, Love the speakers! I'll have to try something when I get a little time. I would love to host a camp too... but space is a little tight here in my shop.

Robert

Gary Campbell
07-15-2007, 05:21 PM
Thanks Brady..
I will give a shot in the morning.
Gary

Gary Campbell
07-16-2007, 09:59 PM
Brady...
Thanks for the tuneup.. found that my move ramp speeds were 2... getting good numbers made it all better... Its like I have a new machine. Thanks again. Gary

mikek
07-17-2007, 11:02 AM
Robert, if you need any help when you get to Austin for Bat Fest, let us know. There are several ShopBotters in the area. Don't know didley about Bats, except they are very popular here.

harryball
07-17-2007, 05:17 PM
As it gets closer, as if not close enough, I was going to check to see who is in the area we might be able to visit. I should also have my notebook with me and still have access for the forum.

We are going to spend the week after Bat Fest in Austin for our vacation. We are staying on Lake Travis. If Bat Fest goes well we will rent a pontoon boat one day and cruise the lake... if it does not go well we'll be eating beans and franks at the picnic table on the shore. Either way you guys are welcome to join us.

Robert